Worried about the future....

[smkiya]

Has anybody here ever read Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegutt Jr? It's like that is the direction society is headed in. I included a link for anyone who wants to read this short story.

http://www.nationalreview.com/nroriginals/?q=MDllNmVmNGU1NDVjY2IzODBlMjYzNDljZTMzNzFlZjc=#more

There was a movie on TNT I think a few weeks ago. I don't remember the name and it wasn't very good, but the premise was interesting. A military librarian was placed in a time capsule and when he was 'thawed' years later he was the smartest person around. People couldn't function without a computer telling them what to do or what to say. Pretty sad, but it may be us in 100 years (if we make it that long....)

 

[Magpie]

That's kind of what I mean though. Is this a beneficial lesson for someone?

If I wanted to go to a party on Saturday, but had a paper to hand in on Monday, why miss the party if I could just make-up the assignment later? I'm going to go to the party, take the initial 0, and then write the paper next week 'when I feel like it' and get an A.

If my boss gave me a deadline, and I didn't meet that deadline because I just didn't feel like doing it, should I be reprimanded?

Success is handing in the work on time. Time management, self-discipline and other traits are learned this way. Remediation if I didn't do well on the assignment is different.

Your boss isn't actually trying to teach you how to write, for one thing.

What my son has learned is that he can't avoid doing something difficult by hiding his head in the sand. He's learned that procrastination won't get him out of anything. He's learned that his teacher is committed to teaching, not just marking.

And he's learned that having an LD is not an excuse for not trying. And that he CAN do decently, if he puts the work in and asks for help when he needs it. (This last one is the biggest issue - he's not good at asking for help!)

His future assignments are all marked on our kitchen calender and will be turned in on time.

 

[kamik86]

That's kind of what I mean though. Is this a beneficial lesson for someone?

I always thought the best medium is the teachers that would allow you to hand in an assignment late but you would lose X amount of points (as a percentage or just that number) each day it was late.

I had a few times turned in things late under that system, especially programming assignements. I had one where I couldn't get it to work and found a work around that would probably get me about an 80 as I got most of the stuff in but some big pieces were missing. The day before its due it suddenly hits me what I did wrong... but now I don't have time to fix it. However if I fixed it I would turn in something that would get full points and only lose the 10 pts for it being late. Which net me more points and is what I did.

This is most like the real world anyway because if I have a deadline but know its not going to be met for some reason (my fault or something out of my control) I sit down with my boss and we figure out what to do about it. Many times the answer is that it is better to send it out right a few days late. This still impacts the project schedule but not as bad as having errors from rushed work would.

 

[allison443]

It can get ridiculous at times.

A few years ago, our city's soccer league stopped keeping score for games. It made the whole season soooo boring. It was almost like sitting through extended practices for an entire season. Even the kids didn't have the focus during games that they ordinarily would. Each team played in one playoff game and then everybody got the same exact trophy. My son has been on championship teams and last place teams in various sports throughout the years. I think he learned something from both. I felt that he learned nothing from that ridiculous non-competetive season.

Our town's rec league doesn't officially keep score for the 5 year old games (that is the youngest age a kid can play.) However we used to joke that if you wanted to know the score, just ask any dad on the sidelines, or for that matter any mom. lol. Even the kids would know which team scored more.

 

[jrmasm]

Your boss isn't actually trying to teach you how to write, for one thing.

What my son has learned is that he can't avoid doing something difficult by hiding his head in the sand. He's learned that procrastination won't get him out of anything. He's learned that his teacher is committed to teaching, not just marking.

And he's learned that having an LD is not an excuse for not trying. And that he CAN do decently, if he puts the work in and asks for help when he needs it. (This last one is the biggest issue - he's not good at asking for help!)

His future assignments are all marked on our kitchen calender and will be turned in on time.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the teacher requiring the assisgment be completed. But if full credit can still be earned, the message is lost.

 

[jrmasm]

Our town's rec league doesn't officially keep score for the 5 year old games (that is the youngest age a kid can play.) However we used to joke that if you wanted to know the score, just ask any dad on the sidelines, or for that matter any mom. lol. Even the kids would know which team scored more.

Oh yeah, the kids know. Anyone who thinks they don't know the score or who 'won' is nuts.

 

[Tinkermommy]

I hate to tell these parents but if you work in a big company you are ranked in your department. So when the give out raises/bonuses the higher the rank the bigger the piece. They also use it if the need to lay someone off. So you if your the bottom ranked, your the one who is going.

It only makes sense to recognize your top performers.

 

[KristaTX]

Discussions like this always remind me of Walt Disney's statement in One Man's Dream at MGM/DHS:

I think it's important to have a good, hard failure when you are young.​

 

[allison443]

I saw on the news last night that the Souderton, PA school district is discussing whether to get rid of class rankings.

My dd's school, and I'm sure many others, have eliminated competition for gym, everybody wins!

I'm also nervous about the increase in parents demanding that because their child is "special" everybody else be made to accommodate them. (By "special" I DON'T mean medical/psychological problem). If you don't you get sued.

Forget disciplining Johnny if he misbehaves in class.

The phrase, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.", has taken on a whole new meaning! "If your opinion doesn't match mine, SHUT UP, you're wrong!"

Am I wrong, or is this becoming a trend?

OP, just in regards to the part about eliminating class rank...

I'm not familiar with your specific area, but the school districts around me that have done so are very good and VERY competitive school districts. They were so competitive that they would have people playing the system to acheive the top class rank. Example, using a medical excuse to get exempted from the normally required gym, and taking a highly-weighted AP class in place of the gym class (whose grade carries just a "regular" weight) and therefore getting an advantage over the other top students who had their gpas affected by the gym grade, etc. Also, kids wouldn't take electives in a new subject area for fear they might not do well, and wouldn't take a class if it was "regular" because it would negatively affect their ranking.
Also these schools were finding that they had so many kids who performed so well, that someone with a 3.75 was in the bottom 50% of the class. At many other schools, that 3.75 would put you in the top 20%. (I don't remember if these were the exact numbers, but you get the idea.)

Again I'm not familiar with the OP's school, but you may want to look more into the reasons for why they decided to do it. I'm not saying I agree with it (my kids school ranks).

 

[golfgal]

Our town's rec league doesn't officially keep score for the 5 year old games (that is the youngest age a kid can play.) However we used to joke that if you wanted to know the score, just ask any dad on the sidelines, or for that matter any mom. lol. Even the kids would know which team scored more.

That's just it, everyone KNOWS the score anyway. Who do they think they are fooling by not "keeping score". Just plain old silly.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

There was a movie on TNT I think a few weeks ago. I don't remember the name and it wasn't very good, but the premise was interesting. A military librarian was placed in a time capsule and when he was 'thawed' years later he was the smartest person around. People couldn't function without a computer telling them what to do or what to say. Pretty sad, but it may be us in 100 years (if we make it that long....)

That is "Idiocracy". We compare the future to that movie all the time. I don't think we are going to be "that movie" but it is funny.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I personally think we are doing our kids and society a huge disservice. We are dumbing down our kids.
We are teaching them that to excel is wrong, to be better and want more is wrong, to be smarter and work harder is wrong.
We are telling them that they are all the same. They are not all the same and should not be treated like they are.
They should be encouraged to reach the highest goals they can even if they are the only one at the top.
They need to learn to lose and to be disappointed.
They need to know the world does not stop to accomodate them, they must figure out where they fit and learn to go after what they want.
Bottom line, we are all different and not all are top dogs, we need to realize it, accept it, learn to live with it and get over it.

You know why they are "dumbing the kids down"? Because the standards for taking "higher learning" are only reserved for the "gifted".

If you do not have a 132 IQ then you cannot take higher level classes even though YOU WANT to take them as a student AND you will excel in the class.

My 8th grade dd just fought her way into the gifted program FINALLY. The tester tested her and she failed of course. However her verbal IQ and tests are so out there that the tester used a different set of spatial tests for her left brain, non math mind.

Kicker is she is gifted in english and the gifted program is english based. So that is what prompted the gifted tester to use further examination. She had to get out of her current english class because it was driving her bonkers. All the teachers KNEW she belonged there however according to the state of Missouri....NO 132 IQ....NO gifted program for YOU!

Now in HS she will be able to jump in and take honors even if she did not make it into the gifted program, however as you know, spots are limited and kids in the program already get first dibs.

 

[ChrizJen]

I agree, OP. We're setting kids up for disastrous consequences when they enter the real world. The world is full of competition. It's everywhere! I cannot even fathom a society of these children entering the workplace, never having known the meaning of losing or failing at something!!

 

[smkiya]

Your boss isn't actually trying to teach you how to write, for one thing.

What my son has learned is that he can't avoid doing something difficult by hiding his head in the sand. He's learned that procrastination won't get him out of anything. He's learned that his teacher is committed to teaching, not just marking.

And he's learned that having an LD is not an excuse for not trying. And that he CAN do decently, if he puts the work in and asks for help when he needs it. (This last one is the biggest issue - he's not good at asking for help!)

His future assignments are all marked on our kitchen calender and will be turned in on time.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the teacher requiring the assisgment be completed. But if full credit can still be earned, the message is lost.

I agree to an extent. That is why I definitely believe in remediation as I've said. If a child is suffering in a particular subject, especially due to some type of learning disability, I agree that they should receive additional tutoring or assistance either through the school or a private learning center. But as jrmasm stated, allowing full credit for a late assignment is not really sending the right message to anyone.

I always thought the best medium is the teachers that would allow you to hand in an assignment late but you would lose X amount of points (as a percentage or just that number) each day it was late.

I had a few times turned in things late under that system, especially programming assignements. I had one where I couldn't get it to work and found a work around that would probably get me about an 80 as I got most of the stuff in but some big pieces were missing. The day before its due it suddenly hits me what I did wrong... but now I don't have time to fix it. However if I fixed it I would turn in something that would get full points and only lose the 10 pts for it being late. Which net me more points and is what I did.

This is most like the real world anyway because if I have a deadline but know its not going to be met for some reason (my fault or something out of my control) I sit down with my boss and we figure out what to do about it. Many times the answer is that it is better to send it out right a few days late. This still impacts the project schedule but not as bad as having errors from rushed work would.

Absolutely! But you were working on the project and realized that there was a problem. You sat down with your boss and explained the problem, you didn't just let it go and say, oh well can't do it. You took personal responsibility for the problem and worked with your boss to resolve it.

I am guilty of turning in a project late, as I'm sure many people are, and once for the reason stated above. BUT, I did not expect to receive full credit for the assignment, because it was late.

 

[smkiya]

OP, just in regards to the part about eliminating class rank...

I'm not familiar with your specific area, but the school districts around me that have done so are very good and VERY competitive school districts. They were so competitive that they would have people playing the system to acheive the top class rank. Example, using a medical excuse to get exempted from the normally required gym, and taking a highly-weighted AP class in place of the gym class (whose grade carries just a "regular" weight) and therefore getting an advantage over the other top students who had their gpas affected by the gym grade, etc. Also, kids wouldn't take electives in a new subject area for fear they might not do well, and wouldn't take a class if it was "regular" because it would negatively affect their ranking.
Also these schools were finding that they had so many kids who performed so well, that someone with a 3.75 was in the bottom 50% of the class. At many other schools, that 3.75 would put you in the top 20%. (I don't remember if these were the exact numbers, but you get the idea.)

Again I'm not familiar with the OP's school, but you may want to look more into the reasons for why they decided to do it. I'm not saying I agree with it (my kids school ranks).

EXACTLY!!!!

Here's a quote from my original post: "I'm also nervous about the increase in parents demanding that because their child is "special" everybody else be made to accommodate them. (By "special" I DON'T mean medical/psychological problem). If you don't you get sued."


There needs to be some consistency.

ETA - There's just too much "bending" of the rules.

 

[Magpie]

I am guilty of turning in a project late, as I'm sure many people are, and once for the reason stated above. BUT, I did not expect to receive full credit for the assignment, because it was late.

But in the real world, there's no credit and no grading. Late, or not, a project completed is a project completed. You'd even get paid MORE if it takes you longer. You might run the risk of getting laid off or not promoted, but in most cases if you have a good reason for being late, then your job is secure. Projects run into overtime all the time.

I sure didn't get a discount just because it took the guys working on my house 3 weeks longer to finish than they initially said.

 

[mamacatnv]

You know why they are "dumbing the kids down"? Because the standards for taking "higher learning" are only reserved for the "gifted".

If you do not have a 132 IQ then you cannot take higher level classes even though YOU WANT to take them as a student AND you will excel in the class.

My 8th grade dd just fought her way into the gifted program FINALLY. The tester tested her and she failed of course. However her verbal IQ and tests are so out there that the tester used a different set of spatial tests for her left brain, non math mind.

Kicker is she is gifted in english and the gifted program is english based. So that is what prompted the gifted tester to use further examination. She had to get out of her current english class because it was driving her bonkers. All the teachers KNEW she belonged there however according to the state of Missouri....NO 132 IQ....NO gifted program for YOU!

Now in HS she will be able to jump in and take honors even if she did not make it into the gifted program, however as you know, spots are limited and kids in the program already get first dibs.

I'm not trying to make an example out of your DD, I totally agree with you when it comes to kids learning differently and being tested differently.

What I want to comment on is the state standard. What is wrong with setting a standard and saying, "you don't make the cut, sorry". As a general rule of thumb, the Honors classes have standards, you don't make the standard you don't get in. What is wrong with saying you must meet "gifted" standards that are "x" to take this class or participate in this activity. Again, I'm not trying to single out your DD I am merely commenting on the scenario as a whole.

IMO this is an area where we have gone off track. We set a standard, say a "gifted" category and then someone thinks an exception should be made because well their child might not meet the particular standard but they should still get a chance.

My question is why? They don't meet the prerequisites why should an exception be made? Why can't we have classes for different levels of kids. Not every child is a rocket scientist despite what their parents may think.

 

[FireDancer]

But in the real world, there's no credit and no grading.

That isn't really true. The man who sells $3 million worth of widgets is going to be "graded" better then that man who sells $100,000 worth. He might be graded with a higher wage (or commission) or with a promotion while the under performer is graded with a firing.

Also, to address the gifted classes, those should be reserved for the exceptional. If more then the top 1-5% can get in it isn't all that gifted. Just because your kid is smarter than average doesn't make them gifted.

When schools brag about 90% of their students being in advanced classes I am not impressed, I just think their advanced classes are way too easy.

 

[Colleen27]

Around here, gym has moved slowly but steadily away from competitive sports and towards more lifelong fitness type activities - walking/running, swimming, aerobics, etc. - with a focus on technique rather than being the fastest/best, and I think that's a smart move. Most kids, even those who are very active in team sports, won't continue to play competitive sports past high school or maybe college, and teaching more individual/adult fitness pursuits seems like the better lifelong lesson than basketball or <cringe> dodgeball. I don't think that's on the same level as not keeping score in expressly comptitive activities.

As far as class ranks go, my experience goes along with what Allison443 posted - it isn't a question of self-esteem at all, but rather that in competitive schools so many kids excel and there is so much focus on loading up on weighted courses for the sake of a better GPA that the rank really becomes meaningless as a means of comparison.

 

[barkley]

Same with GPA. We have schools in our area that still use the 90-100=A scale but in our district 92-100 is an A and I'm sure other districts are more demanding.

we live right on the border of 2 districts-the one we are assigned to designates that to receive an A you can receive no less than a 94.0. the adjacent district's criteria for an A is a 92.5.

there are parents in our neighborhood who literaly make the decision to petition the schools for permission to let their kids attend the other district because they don't want their "little snowflake" to chance hurt feelings over not getting an A in a course due to the higher standards