working hard=financial success?

Lot of topics flying around on this one!

Hard work, or more like dedicated effort is needed whatever your profession is. Whether is manual labor or computer programing. A college degree is extremly helpful in attaiing some of the better jobs but as someone mentioned so many people are going to college now it is in some ways cheapening the value of a degree.

Another person quoted the poster in a classroom that said on average a college graduate will earn more over their lifetime than a person without a degree which on average still holds true, but if that person had a degree in Finance/ Economics even that could be disputed in individual cases. For example, one HS graduate decides not to go to college so they take trade classes in HS, and as soon as they get out apply to and get accepted to an electricians apprintice program, where they work all day and take classes at night through the union. They star making money on day 1. Another HS graduate (and I admit to using an extreme example here but it happens more than you think) applies to NYU gets accepted and spend the next 4 1/2 to 5 years earning a degree in Womens studies and Religious studies. During college they rack up $100k in college loans. Upon graduation they move to San Francisco and work as a photographers assistant. Using time value of money graduate 1 has positive cash flow from day one. Graduate 2 has negative cash flow from day one. After ten years who is better off?

Obviously in this bias comparison Graduate 1 wins. But to varying degrees this happens all the time. The no income period for those who don't attend college and actually go into debt vs those who start making money on day one means that that college degree may never allow you to catch up.

As for the type jobs available anymore the middle class manufacturing jobs have all but dried up in the US. This is no doubt an alarming trend simply because we are moving to a widely segregated population. Look at Mexico and third world countries. You have the rich ruling class and you have the poor. Thats it. This leads to civil unrest, and the deterioration of the country. The US has thrived for so long because of a strong middle class but in articles I have read lately they are saying that there will be perpetual unemployment for males in the 21 to 55 age group w/o college degrees that will run as high as 1 in 4. 25% of these people will always be out of work. That's scary.

In todays environment we need to encourage kids to look at the employment segments that are projected to grow over the next couple of decades and steer them there. Kids need to pick the right course of study and stick with it to graduation.
You make a fair point when you compare your two hypothetical graduates -- but you also admit that they're extreme examples.

My brother was the kid who took vocational classes in high school, then went into the Navy to further his training at no cost to himself. Today he makes more money than I did (with my college degree). But he went into a high-earning field, AND he received some very technical training AND he works like a dog. Whereas, I am a teacher -- I'm low-end on the salary scale for college grads.

To make the comparison more fair -- and to make it fit the majority of workers -- make it two people interested in the same field. Let's make it accounting. One person takes accounting classes in high school and leaves school ready to become a book keeper in a small company. He starts making money immediately, but he can't really move up too far in his field. The other person goes to college (perhaps even taking out moderate loans). He eventually earns a CPA license and is highly employable. Yes, he won't start earning for years after high school, and he may have to repay loans, but as the years progress, he has more employment opportunities, and his salary increases. He eventually supervises a department, and the book keeper works for him.

I agree that it's tremendously important that we encourage our children to choose their path in life carefully. Not all paths lead to financial success, and although money can't buy happiness, lack of an adequate paycheck is a sure-fire way to misery.
I partially agree, however we as a society have stopped caring about people. There was a time not too long ago where you could get a good job with a company, work there for 40 years, retire, collect your pension, and be taken care of for the rest of your life. Now, pensions have been replaced with 401Ks, which have no guarantee of return. Also, companies nowadays have solely a short-term focus. An employee is nothing more than a resource !
In all fairness, this is a two-edged sword:

It wasn't all that long ago that a man (I say a man because this was really before women worked at anything more than a little tide-me-over-'til-I'm-married job) found a job and stayed there 'til he retired. He was loyal to that company. He put in a fair day's work, didn't pilfer from the company coffers, didn't waste company time messing around on Facebook, and was glad to have a steady job. He didn't switch jobs every 3-5 years.

At the same time, companies put effort into training employees because they expected to keep them for years. They paid his benefits, which were really worth someting. If he was sick, someone checked on him and offered help. The company wouldn't lay him off in lean years because they knew that it was temporary and it was better to keep him on the payroll than to try to replace him later.

Which came first? Individuals who said, "Screw the company -- I'm out to get what I can for myself" or companies who said, "We're all about the bottom line, and if you want to work here hold on tight 'cause we move fast"? I don't know, but the change has occured on both sides.
 
Yeah, I enjoyed reading that book, but the biggest problem was that she was trying to live like a middle class person on a minimum-wage salary. She didn't use any of the methods that the working poor typically use: She never had a roommate (or four), never used public transportation or walked to work, never worked two jobs. never looked for free meals.

Of course, she started out with the "hopeless" mindset, and -- surprise! -- she proved herself right.

I put myself through college on minimum wage jobs (and that was when minimum wage was $3.35/hour). I never had anything extra, didn't always have a car, and I was sometimes hungry . . . but I did more than just survive: I paid tuition, bought books, and moved myself out of that situation. Of course, I wasn't playing a game or writing a book. I WAS working poor.
 
In 2010, I think a good chunk of it is who you know, and how rich or influential your parents or family are/were. I think another chunk of it is how slimy you are and how many people you're willing to trample on the way up.

The other small percentage of it is good, honest, hard work.

:donning flame suit:
 
Working hard is absolutely ONE COMPONENT of financial success. Without hard work, very few people will be successful. Paris Hilton, I suppose is the exception to that rule -- and really, I suppose we could argue that her family is rich, but she herself isn't really responsible for her financial success. Even if you consider people who discover oil on their family land to be financially successful, hard work was still involved. Someone (maybe the newly rich person, maybe an ancestor) bought that land, maintained it, paid taxes on it.

However, other factors come into play too:

Natural talents, ability, and intelligence. For example, I know a couple kids at school who work SO HARD every single day, but -- for one reason or another -- it just doesn't come together for them. One I'm thinking of is what used to be termed "educatibly mentally handicapped". She can do literally everything in her power, and it still won't be near what my own daughter could do with immense ease. On the other hand, look at someone like Michael Jordan. He was born with natural talent. Someone else could put in just as many hours on the court and still not equal Michael Jordan's accomplishments.

Choice of profession. Some jobs pay more than others. If you choose to be a social worker, you will never earn CEO pay no matter how hard you work.

Thrift. How you spend what you have matters tremendously. We all know people who earn about the same salary we do, yet they're either doing much, much better financially . . . or they're doing much, much worse. Anyone can manage what money they have well -- if they work at it -- so that really could fall under the hard work category.

And finally luck. Being born with a healthy body, with parents who are supportive of education, in an area where jobs are readily available, in a time period where health care is available and no wars are going on -- all these things certainly give a person a leg up. And, of course, the opposite could be true too. A person born without those benefits could still be successful, but he'd have to work harder than a person to whom those things came freely.

So, I'd say that hard work is absolutely NECESSARY for financial success. Without it, financial failure is almost a sure thing, BUT it isn't enough in and of itself.

What She Said....110%...

Wise as always Mrs. Pete...
 

These days, a lot of it comes down to what field you go into..when I was in nursing school, I had friends that made very disparaging comments. Now, I'm working a job that I love(most of the time,lol) and I do pretty well financially. (about 70,000 a year base pay with plenty of overtime available). These same friends are bagging groceries with their psychology, English, and art history degrees. If I sound snarky it's because they gave me such grief about nursing( ie that I was too smart to be a nurse etc), so I got a little defensive.

Certain fields are always going to pay well and college isn't the only way to success. Learning a trade is always a good thing too.
 
In 2010, I think a good chunk of it is who you know, and how rich or influential your parents or family are/were. I think another chunk of it is how slimy you are and how many people you're willing to trample on the way up.

The other small percentage of it is good, honest, hard work.

:donning flame suit:
Well, people who are wealthy and influential probably worked hard to get to where they are. And most of them pass that work ethic on to their kids. (However, I've known students with wealthy parents who have spoiled their kids to ridiculous proportions -- and we see more and more of them every year.)

Anyway, I think wealthy parents may be able to get you a good start in life -- college, maybe influence in a first job -- but once you're past "entry level", I don't think Daddy can buy you into much of a job.
These same friends are bagging groceries with their psychology, English, and art history degrees.
I'm doing okay with my English degree. Aren't you doing just what you hated them to do to you?
 
Well, people who are wealthy and influential probably worked hard to get to where they are. And most of them pass that work ethic on to their kids. (However, I've known students with wealthy parents who have spoiled their kids to ridiculous proportions -- and we see more and more of them every year.)

Anyway, I think wealthy parents may be able to get you a good start in life -- college, maybe influence in a first job -- but once you're past "entry level", I don't think Daddy can buy you into much of a job. I'm doing okay with my English degree. Aren't you doing just what you hated them to do to you?
Granted,my comment wasn't nice but these people were very snotty and obnoxious about it, calling nurses "glorified *** wipers" and other lovely names.

So, while I'm glad you're doing well with your English degree, I'm glad these people aren't.;)
 
WOW This was some intense reading.

Original thought on quote was a definite no as there are too many factors in success. Many people work hard and have terrible luck etc and don't get ahead. Also there are many people who don't work "hard" because things either come easy to them or they were born into the right family, slept with the right person etc but they are successful.

The poster who talked about the value shift in America is so right. We no longer value true service professions. Back in the day a meat cutter was considered highly skilled labor (because high amounts of specialized training were required for this position/title) and was paid extremely well. Nowadays most "meat cutters" work in factory farm slaughterhouses and are not legal or documented workers. WOW that comment will start a riot...please ignore. ;)

Personal factoids...
I am a former honor student, was in the gifted program since first grade, could read by age 3, never had to "study" to pass exams, never had to do homework to learn material, passed many college classes without buying the textbook or even reading it if I did, hard worker and motivated

I graduated high school and was accepted to many quality colleges. i really had my heart set on Berkley but it was out of state and I couldn't afford it. I didn't qualify for grants because my two parents made too much money. (at the time my dad worked as a service writer and my mom worked in the billing department at a hospital...I estimate their income to be 70000/year.) So too rich for grants but too poor to pay tution. I went to the local crappy state college instead and worked 30+ hours a week to pay my way through. It took me almost 6 years and lots of "hard work" and loans to finish but I did. I took a job teaching thinking I could make a difference in the world that way. :laughing::laughing: I immediately went back to school and got a masters degree. :headache: and then some more graduate hours after that.

Fast forward to now...I make the same salary that I made my 2nd year of teaching. I haven't had a raise in 6 years!!! My benefits have been cut every year and now I have to pay for them. My caseload has increased every year and soon my pay will be based on how well my disabled students do on a standardized test. :confused:

I suppose my point to that long rant was that I was born lucky (healthy, bright, capable, supportive home etc.), the right ethnicity and nationality, worked hard and highly educated and skilled in my profession and yet I will never be rewarded with financial success.

Sorry for the long rant....and if it was completely off topic sorry...I just got my feathers ruffled. :guilty::sad2:
 
I could have written the above post! I am a hospice social worker. yes, I chose to get a social work degree (it's expected that if you want a 'good' social work job, that you get a Master's degree which I diid). I financed my entire education myself and am still paying off my school loans 18 years after graduatiing. My first job was as a child welfare worker in 1989 and I made $15,000 a year (making desisions about whether to remove people's children from their homes). I've never made more than $30,000 a year, even as a director of two programs (at the same time, doing 2 jobs). My job now is incredibly stressful but I value contributing to society. But that doesn't mean I don't deserve to get paid well. As a society, we have no inerest in rewarding people financially who choose to work with the most vulnerable amoung us. We're supposed to be happy b/c it's 'rewarding' or you do it 'because you must be such a good person'. Yes, we have a choice to do something else but if you want to stay in the field you are stuck with low pay.

I totally agree about the lack of respect for service jobs. Often these are the working poor with low pay and no benefits and very hard jobs. How would you like to be a maid at a hotel for even a few weeks? They work way harder than most of us and FOR us. We wouldn't be able to function in society w/o them (as well as clerks, waitresses, taxi drivers, etc. etc.). There used to be an opportunity in this country to be middle class w/o needing a college degree and that is often no longer true. Even for people with degrees, it's not always true. I always get the feeling from these threads of living at a time when there were poor houses and people felt that poor people 'deserved' to be poor. There are so many factors that go into someone being successfull. Hard work is one but it doesn't always equal financial success. I try to appreciate how lucky I am to have born with a high IQ, parents who were not wealthy but imparted good values in me, support from friends and family, and some good luck along the way. If I hadn't had those things, who knows.

I know this sounds bitter and grumpy! But sometimes I wish that people would just stop for a minute and try to have a little empathy for people who have had different life experiences/success than they have. Feel good about your own success but remember that you almost never know someone's whole story. My dh and I have struggled to pay medical bills from my son who needed therapies for a condition that our insurace didn't find important enough to cover. But we made the choice to do it b/c we felt it was what he needed and we were right. But we paid thousands and thousands of dollars out of pocket every year. Sometimes you make decisions that aren't in your best financial interest b/c they are in your kids' or family's best interest. If we hadn't made that choice, we'd have a nicer house, newer cars, and a more comfortable lifestyle. But, oh well!
 
Absolutely nothing has "happened" to our country. this has always been the case.




Excellent book. I have a copy if anyone wants a free read. definitely would cure a lot of people from the old "poor people are poor because they are not working hard enough" stereotype.


As with most things, there is no "one" magical bullet that will ensure financial success. Hard work is definitely helpful but by no means guarantees any thing.

..and I would suggest a different book..Scratch Beginnings by Adam Shepard. It was written by a young college student who has his own strong opinions on his generation and Nickel and Dimed, which was required reading in one of his classes. He went out to disprove the theories in Nickel and Dimed by hard work and some logic and started in a homeless shelter to do so with nothing more than $25.00. Great read.

PS.. I see someone else mentioned this book..oops! Bears repeating though.
 
I could have written the above post! I am a hospice social worker. yes, I chose to get a social work degree (it's expected that if you want a 'good' social work job, that you get a Master's degree which I diid). I financed my entire education myself and am still paying off my school loans 18 years after graduatiing. My first job was as a child welfare worker in 1989 and I made $15,000 a year (making desisions about whether to remove people's children from their homes). I've never made more than $30,000 a year, even as a director of two programs (at the same time, doing 2 jobs). My job now is incredibly stressful but I value contributing to society. But that doesn't mean I don't deserve to get paid well. As a society, we have no inerest in rewarding people financially who choose to work with the most vulnerable amoung us. We're supposed to be happy b/c it's 'rewarding' or you do it 'because you must be such a good person'. Yes, we have a choice to do something else but if you want to stay in the field you are stuck with low pay.

I totally agree about the lack of respect for service jobs. Often these are the working poor with low pay and no benefits and very hard jobs. How would you like to be a maid at a hotel for even a few weeks? They work way harder than most of us and FOR us. We wouldn't be able to function in society w/o them (as well as clerks, waitresses, taxi drivers, etc. etc.). There used to be an opportunity in this country to be middle class w/o needing a college degree and that is often no longer true. Even for people with degrees, it's not always true. I always get the feeling from these threads of living at a time when there were poor houses and people felt that poor people 'deserved' to be poor. There are so many factors that go into someone being successfull. Hard work is one but it doesn't always equal financial success. I try to appreciate how lucky I am to have born with a high IQ, parents who were not wealthy but imparted good values in me, support from friends and family, and some good luck along the way. If I hadn't had those things, who knows.

I know this sounds bitter and grumpy! But sometimes I wish that people would just stop for a minute and try to have a little empathy for people who have had different life experiences/success than they have. Feel good about your own success but remember that you almost never know someone's whole story. My dh and I have struggled to pay medical bills from my son who needed therapies for a condition that our insurace didn't find important enough to cover. But we made the choice to do it b/c we felt it was what he needed and we were right. But we paid thousands and thousands of dollars out of pocket every year. Sometimes you make decisions that aren't in your best financial interest b/c they are in your kids' or family's best interest. If we hadn't made that choice, we'd have a nicer house, newer cars, and a more comfortable lifestyle. But, oh well!
:worship::worship: That was so well said, gandycat! Neither my husband nor myself had the opportunity to go to college. My DH was number 8 of 9 children born into a family where there was no importance put on education, none! (Also wanted to add that his family never took any support from the government but poorly raised all of these children themselves). I remember when his older brother above him was really wanting to go to college, his dad mocked him. So, when you have that type of support system from the beginning, what hope have you? Sure, you can rise above but it's very difficult.

Me? Well, my family wouldn't mock college or more education but there just wasn't the money there to send us and my divorced parents made too much money :rotfl: (yea right!! They kept up two separate homes.) for us to get any type of assistance. Because neither my mom nor my dad ever attended college, there was no encouragement or support for us to attend.

I'm not expecting any one to fix our situation. It is what it is BUT I too wish that people would just stop for a minute and try to have a little empathy for people who have had different life experiences/success than they have. And it's not all about hard work. DH and I say all the time, if you really got paid for the work you do, we would be rich. But, it's a service level job doing to the stuff others wouldn't want to do but he does it every day.
 
.Yeah, the last few years' economic problems wouldn't have been neary so dire IF so many people hadn't been "upside down" on their houses and cars already, had credit card debt, and had little personal savings. Sure, we probably still would've seen gas prices skyrocket, and other consumer goods would've risen as well . . . but if the average person had been a little better prepared, it could've been a bump in the road rather than a genuine emergency.

True, but stagnant and falling wages were a major reason so many people were ill-prepared. It is more comfortable to focus on the people who used their homes as ATMs or got in over their heads on unconventional mortgages because they wouldn't settle for anything less than new construction, but the reality is that there are a lot more people who just aren't seeing their wages keep up with inflation. The housing bubble was a short-lived trend, but the reduction in buying power for the American working class is an economic trend that spans 4 decades, and those are people who are perpetually over their heads because they're still making what they did in 1975 (after adjusting for inflation) but are dealing with housing and medical costs that have increased exponentially.

Well, people who are wealthy and influential probably worked hard to get to where they are. And most of them pass that work ethic on to their kids. (However, I've known students with wealthy parents who have spoiled their kids to ridiculous proportions -- and we see more and more of them every year.)

Anyway, I think wealthy parents may be able to get you a good start in life -- college, maybe influence in a first job -- but once you're past "entry level", I don't think Daddy can buy you into much of a job.

It isn't just about a job, though, or the lack of student loan debt. Those things both help, but there's also a lot more freedom to take the kind of risks that successful people take when you know you aren't going to starve or do without medical treatment if you do so. And I'm not just talking super wealthy there, but just plain old top few percent, mid-to-high 6 figure income level wealth. The options are more open and the thought processes are different, with less emphasis on just getting by/making ends meet and more ability to concentrate on long-run success.
 
In all fairness, this is a two-edged sword:

It wasn't all that long ago that a man (I say a man because this was really before women worked at anything more than a little tide-me-over-'til-I'm-married job) found a job and stayed there 'til he retired. He was loyal to that company. He put in a fair day's work, didn't pilfer from the company coffers, didn't waste company time messing around on Facebook, and was glad to have a steady job. He didn't switch jobs every 3-5 years.

At the same time, companies put effort into training employees because they expected to keep them for years. They paid his benefits, which were really worth someting. If he was sick, someone checked on him and offered help. The company wouldn't lay him off in lean years because they knew that it was temporary and it was better to keep him on the payroll than to try to replace him later.

Which came first? Individuals who said, "Screw the company -- I'm out to get what I can for myself" or companies who said, "We're all about the bottom line, and if you want to work here hold on tight 'cause we move fast"? I don't know, but the change has occured on both sides.

Which came first? I can tell which came first. The loss of both company and employee loyalty started with the massive downsizing that occured in the 80's. When many workers that had given many years to a company were simply let go in the interest of profit. It was at that point that employees realized that the company did not have a vested interest in them and they needed to start looking for a new position.

Most of the people I know that have switched jobs every couple of years have done it for one of three reasons:

  1. More $
  2. A chance to improve skills or get a promotion
  3. Closer commute

There are many things that the companies can do to retain these employees if they really wanted to, including:

  1. Offer competitive salaries with raises and stop hiring people off the street at higher salaries then what you are willing to pay your current employees.
  2. Allow employees to expand their skill sets and offer promotions to your top performers. Do not pigeon hole your employees into their current role.
  3. Allow your employees to telecommute a few days a week so they do not have to deal with the commute everyday.

Employers have it in their power to build employee loyalty, but the employess are often powerless to build company loyalty. It has to begin with the employer. If you keep your employees happy, they will remain loyal to your company.
 
Granted,my comment wasn't nice but these people were very snotty and obnoxious about it, calling nurses "glorified *** wipers" and other lovely names.
Here's another irony: As a nurse, you may occasionally find yourself doing the aforementioned wiping (or something equally distasteful) because it IS part of the job . . . but likely at some point in their lives those snotty people are going to NEED that type of help themselves. Wonder how they'll feel about receiving such help from someone so lowly? so beneath themselves?
The poster who talked about the value shift in America is so right. We no longer value true service professions. Back in the day a meat cutter was considered highly skilled labor (because high amounts of specialized training were required for this position/title) and was paid extremely well. Nowadays most "meat cutters" work in factory farm slaughterhouses and are not legal or documented workers. WOW that comment will start a riot...please ignore. ;)
Meat cutters are a good example. Here's another that illustrates the shift in the American workplace:

I live in the South, where textiles were king for generations. Late 1800 - 1990s, the mill town (or mill hill) was a way of life for the working poor. Not too long after the Civil War, as medicine progressed and (to sound callous) more babies started living to adulthood, the farms could no longer support the whole family, so many adult children "came to town". The mills offered them a miniscule paycheck, but the company took care of most of their needs. A worker received a small shotgun house rent-free. It was close enough that he could walk to work /come home for lunch, so he didn't need a car. He didn't need an education; the company provided all the training he'd need. If he got sick, the company doctor was right there (no charge). The company store was there in town (with low, low prices). The church and all other social entities were located right there within walking distance. Every Easter the mill gave him a ham, every Thanksgiving a turkey. When he had a baby or was sick, the mill manager -- maybe even the owner -- came to visit him. A good, steady worker had a job for life, and after he put in his years, he had a small pension and his house 'til the day he died. If he was hurt on the job, he received a mill pension and medical care. The mill closed down the week of July 4 and the week of Christmas, giving him a week's paid vacation twice a year. His wife probably worked for the mill when she was younger, then stayed at home with the children 'til they started school. While she was at home, she probably did jobs for the other mill workers: Childcare, laundry, cooking. His children probably dropped out of high school and found a place in the mill -- or perhaps driving a truck for the mill, or perhaps doing maintenance on the mill houses (which was free for the tennants), or perhaps working in the mill store. Few people left the mill family, or even tried to leave. It was a way of life.

I've heard some of my now-deceased relatives speak of the mill with great reverence. Sure, they never even made minimum wage, but they also never did without. They didn't have to save, didn't have to plan ahead. As long as they were steady workers (and didn't talk crazy stuff like Unions -- that's for them Yankees, we're family down here), they never had to worrry about lay-offs or being fired. They saw the owners/managers as family. Kind of like an older brother who'd take care of them, make their decisions for them. Yeah, the owners/managers got rich, while the workers never made much, but they also saw it as their moral duty to care for their workers.

You tell me -- were they better or worse off than today's working poor?

Today we're in a mess because a certain former president made trade agreements with Mexico that sent those jobs out of our country. Most of those mill workers had no education (even though in today's world, that was foolish), and they had no other skills. For generations their families had been mill folks. It's been hard on our area as these people try to acclimate themselves into a world their parents, grandparents, great grandparents never saw.
:worship::worship: That was so well said, gandycat! Neither my husband nor myself had the opportunity to go to college . . . my family wouldn't mock college or more education but there just wasn't the money there . . .
I hear what you're saying, but LOTS of people don't have college handed to them. LOTS of people's parents are in the situation yours were in: No money.

College is an opportunity that you CAN MAKE happen for yourself. Maybe you can't afford to go to any college you choose, but community college is a good start. Maybe you can't afford to live in a dorm or have an apartment near the campus, but most of us are within driving distance of a college. You might not be able to do it in a neat little four-year package, and you might have to work an awful lot during the process, but it's an achievable goal. Sure, it's easier if you have supportive parents who help you with admissions, write big checks, and see you through the process . . . but it's possible to do it without that help.

My mother didn't want me to go to college. She had a couple reasons, all dealing with her own issues, not my ability or readiness. She actually threw up some roadblocks -- all financial -- to try to prevent me from going to college. In all honesty, that ended up helping me because I was determined she wouldn't win. My parents never paid one red cent of my education, but I earned two degrees in 7 years, and in the 19 years that I've been out of college and have been working I've earned back every penny that I put in many times over. It wasn't easy, but it was worthwhile.

And I'm certainly not the only person who's done this. My grandfather is another example. He was orphaned as a child. He was one of 10 children, and he was passed around among his older /married siblings during his formative years. He was smart and wanted to go to college, but he was without resources . . . "Til he found the Teaching Fellows scholarship. He decided to become a teacher literally because that was his ticket to college. He taught a couple years /coached basketball to fulfill his scholarship repayment obligation, then moved on to other things.
 
I hear what you're saying, but LOTS of people don't have college handed to them. LOTS of people's parents are in the situation yours were in: No money.

College is an opportunity that you CAN MAKE happen for yourself. Maybe you can't afford to go to any college you choose, but community college is a good start. Maybe you can't afford to live in a dorm or have an apartment near the campus, but most of us are within driving distance of a college. You might not be able to do it in a neat little four-year package, and you might have to work an awful lot during the process, but it's an achievable goal. Sure, it's easier if you have supportive parents who help you with admissions, write big checks, and see you through the process . . . but it's possible to do it without that help.

My mother didn't want me to go to college. She had a couple reasons, all dealing with her own issues, not my ability or readiness. She actually threw up some roadblocks -- all financial -- to try to prevent me from going to college. In all honesty, that ended up helping me because I was determined she wouldn't win. My parents never paid one red cent of my education, but I earned two degrees in 7 years, and in the 19 years that I've been out of college and have been working I've earned back every penny that I put in many times over. It wasn't easy, but it was worthwhile.

And I'm certainly not the only person who's done this. My grandfather is another example. He was orphaned as a child. He was one of 10 children, and he was passed around among his older /married siblings during his formative years. He was smart and wanted to go to college, but he was without resources . . . "Til he found the Teaching Fellows scholarship. He decided to become a teacher literally because that was his ticket to college. He taught a couple years /coached basketball to fulfill his scholarship repayment obligation, then moved on to other things.

ITA, but I would also add that it is never too late! Start with just one course at a time at a local college or online. It won't be easy, but it is doable. I got my Masters' by taking two classes at a time year round, while working fulltime and having a wife and young child at home. It was not easy and I feel like I missed part of DD growning up, but I feel better for having done it. If cost is a problem seek out loans or grants or if you work for a company see if they offer tuition reimbursement.
 
I think "working hard" should be replaced with "working smart"
There are some jobs that never, in any time or place would gain you very much. I'm sorry, but there are some service jobs that too many people are qualified for. If 50% of the population can do your job, and only .05% is needed... you aren't going to have much value. This does not mean anybody can do every service job, but really? I was a great florist and a wonderful barista. I did my jobs much better than many people would, but it still is a job anybody can do. It doesn't matter how hard I worked at steaming milk, the job just isn't worth much money because you are so replaceable.
DH is a college professor. All the time we get "oh, that is soo easy, all you have to do is teach for 6 hours/week?" But there is so much more to that career. Not only do you have to go through years of school, school where you are seriously working, not just go to class and head out to party with all your peers who are- but then you have to keep up doing the research and hard work going though a series of 2-3 year contracts before you can get accepted by a school to try for tenure. People easily miss 15 or 20 years of their lives just working on getting somewhere with Tenure. Most people just plain could not do his job, nor would they if they could. Yes, he makes more than those people and he absolutely should. Our entire family has to sacrifice every day for him to be successful. People "work hard" for 40 hours/week and then they have time off. People with jobs like his can be working 70 hours a week and are still falling behind while some entry level factory worker complains to him about how hard they have to work for 35 hours/week.

I also think the amount of media people take in affects how we think of success. In the past people ate, had a few outfits and played games with people. Now you have to buy a few thousand dollars worth of technology per year, plus all the subscriptions and services for all that crap we "have" to buy.
I don't have an Ipod and on some level that makes me feel like we aren't successful. But we are happy, we are in need of nothing. I see people with new toys all the time that we don't have and it makes it seem like "everybody else" has all this stuff, so I should get it too.
 
Today we're in a mess because a certain former president made trade agreements with Mexico that sent those jobs out of our country. Most of those mill workers had no education (even though in today's world, that was foolish), and they had no other skills. For generations their families had been mill folks. It's been hard on our area as these people try to acclimate themselves into a world their parents, grandparents, great grandparents never saw.I hear what you're saying, but LOTS of people don't have college handed to them. LOTS of people's parents are in the situation yours were in: No money.

The mills (and manufacturing in America in general) is more complicated than just NAFTA. Robotics took away a lot of jobs starting in the 1970s. We still manufacture as much in this country as we ever have - but we don't need people to do it. Labor laws stopped the feudal system of the mill owner and mill town who took care of his serfs in exchange for labor - and those laws became unsupportable in the face of competition from countries without labor laws. Likewise, environmental laws added costs to doing business in the U.S. - you can dump anything you want into a river in China. It isn't but three generations ago that my grandmother worked as a six year old child in the St. Paul Stockyards - I'm not sure meatcutters EVER got respect, my great grandparents were stockyard workers who were poor as church mice and treated like trash (of course, they were Eastern European immigrants, the social trash of their era).

That's sort of what I mean by the aberration of the golden age of manufacturing jobs. Really labor laws started in the 1910. If you worked in the stockyards of St. Paul in the 1910s and 1920s, it wasn't a pretty place.

I like the world better when we pay a living wage and don't dump toxic waste into our water - but there are costs involved.
 
I live in the South, where textiles were king for generations. Late 1800 - 1990s, the mill town (or mill hill) was a way of life for the working poor. Not too long after the Civil War, as medicine progressed and (to sound callous) more babies started living to adulthood, the farms could no longer support the whole family, so many adult children "came to town". The mills offered them a miniscule paycheck, but the company took care of most of their needs. A worker received a small shotgun house rent-free. It was close enough that he could walk to work /come home for lunch, so he didn't need a car. He didn't need an education; the company provided all the training he'd need. If he got sick, the company doctor was right there (no charge). The company store was there in town (with low, low prices). The church and all other social entities were located right there within walking distance. Every Easter the mill gave him a ham, every Thanksgiving a turkey. When he had a baby or was sick, the mill manager -- maybe even the owner -- came to visit him. A good, steady worker had a job for life, and after he put in his years, he had a small pension and his house 'til the day he died. If he was hurt on the job, he received a mill pension and medical care. The mill closed down the week of July 4 and the week of Christmas, giving him a week's paid vacation twice a year. His wife probably worked for the mill when she was younger, then stayed at home with the children 'til they started school. While she was at home, she probably did jobs for the other mill workers: Childcare, laundry, cooking. His children probably dropped out of high school and found a place in the mill -- or perhaps driving a truck for the mill, or perhaps doing maintenance on the mill houses (which was free for the tennants), or perhaps working in the mill store. Few people left the mill family, or even tried to leave. It was a way of life.
I've heard some of my now-deceased relatives speak of the mill with great reverence. Sure, they never even made minimum wage, but they also never did without. They didn't have to save, didn't have to plan ahead. As long as they were steady workers (and didn't talk crazy stuff like Unions -- that's for them Yankees, we're family down here), they never had to worrry about lay-offs or being fired. They saw the owners/managers as family. Kind of like an older brother who'd take care of them, make their decisions for them. Yeah, the owners/managers got rich, while the workers never made much, but they also saw it as their moral duty to care for their workers.

No offense, and maybe it's because I'm a crazy Yankee, ;) but I think that is kind of a romanticized view and I don't think that sounds so great...to me it is almost reminiscient of economic slavery...remember when people used to say how plantation owners cared about their slaves, and the slaves were taken care of and happy? (Of course slavery was a million times worse.) The system you are describing was set up to benefit the mill owners, and it became a cycle for the workers' kids, as you said. No education, no prospects besides working at the mill? The owners had a built in work force within walking distance. Of course, once it was no longer financially advantageous, it sounds like the "older brother" bailed on them, though. What happened to the "moral duty" you describe? :confused3

My grandparents came over as immigrants with very little education, my grandfathers both worked in a shipyard and my grandmother came over at 14 and worked as a maid for a wealthy family in NYC. They eventually were able to purchase their own homes, one set had 11 kids and one set had 7 kids, all the kids were educated, some went to college, vocational training, etc. They definitely struggled economically, but they wanted their kids to do better, and each successive generation has done better. (Whether that will continue, I don't know.)
 
This is such a complicated topic. First of all, I do agree with one of the other posters in that you work smart, not hard. There's a definite distinction there. If you don't work in a way that allows you to move up the food chain so to speak, your hard work won't accomplish much.

I think that in a way we've begun to build a system again within the US based on income. There are those who are middle class and above in one and the working poor in another. The working poor for the most part I think do not have the resources to rise about their situation, while the middle class does. And I think this applies to their children as well as they are taught so differently. Instead of being a system that's based upon work I think in many ways our system is also based on a level of knowledge that many people simply don't have. And by the time people go to teach them it, it's too late or there's just no way to overcome what they were taught growing up.

I think most people who are raised in a middle class situation will stay, or rise above that situation. I think most people who come in poor will stay in that situation. I don't think this is because it is impossible to rise (or fall for that matter) but simply a matter of how they view the world. I don't think this generalization oddly applies to immigrants, because they come to this country with every intention of improving their lives. My husband is the first in his family to be born in the US. They lived in poverty when he was younger, but his family has managed to pull themselves into a middle class situation though many, many years of smart hard work. They're struggling now due to the recession, but I have no doubt that once the economy begins to improve so will their economic condition.

So I guess what I'm saying is I do believe it is possible to work towards the American dream, but it takes intelligent work and an understanding of the American system (and a bit of luck doesn't hurt) just as much as hard work.

And on a side note I think the American idea of success is completely screwed up. We want far too much 'stuff' instead of noting what's really important in our lives. It's okay to have things and to enjoy them, but I think many Americans have put them far too far up the totem pole. We are so wealthy in comparison to most of the rest of the world and we don't appreciate it in the least, we just want more.
 
Mrs Pete, your talk of the mills made me smile. Dh's entire family worked for the company mill in a small town in Maine. Same thing, company houses, company store, etc. The only difference was there eventually was a union. For many years the union and the owners were able to work things out. The union was on a very predictable strike schedule. Usually during a down time. The owners would budge a little, the union would budge a little, everyone was happy.

Eventually the union grew too powerful, and the demands too much. So they closed down the mill. The town's employers are now a nursing home, hospital, the schools, and needed services. You can't give away a home in that town.
 












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