Woman in persistive vegetative state unexpectedly delivers baby

[kdonnel]

I disagree. In this case, any male who had access to her is a suspect & therefore can & should be investigated.

I agree as long as the results of those found not the father are destroyed and not stored in a database to be used in the future in unrelated investigations.

 

[CarolAnn856]

This is a tragedy and a crime, but I still don't agree with every mail employee having to prove they are innocent.

You're right, it would be a travesty of justice if "every mail employee" had to submit DNA. I mean, what does the post office have to do with this?

Luckily, though, it's just "male employees." And possibly not necessarily all, since the article linked didn't use that word. I think it's very possible that the DNA request was specifically directed toward likely suspects.

 

[lifesavacation]

How did she give birth unexpectedly?? Could they not tell she was pregnant?

This blows me away. Do they not regularly bathe patients that are in a vegetative state or check them for bed sores? I think someone should have noticed.

 

[Colleen27]

This blows me away. Do they not regularly bathe patients that are in a vegetative state or check them for bed sores. I think someone should have noticed.

That's the part I can't get past either. I have a hard time believing that no one noticed, not any of her caregivers and not the perpetrator himself (because odds are this wasn't a one-time assault). It seems to me that there would have to be some degree of willful ignorance for a pregnancy to come even close to full term under those conditions.

 

[SgtTibbs]

I hear what you're saying, but how else would you propose they go about it? It's not as if they can get a statement from the victim.

If a person was raped at a bar, would you support police getting the cell phone records for everyone that was in the bar and then their DNA? Once they have the DNA can they run it through their database to see what other crimes anyone who happened to be at the bar is linked to? How about using that same database to see if anyone closely related to anyone at that bar was a person of interest in anything? That's all possible right now.

 

[runwad]

It does seem odd no one would know she was pregnant, but don't you guys remember a tv show based on this whole concept, "Women not knowing they were pregnant." Maybe it was on TLC or Discovery I can't remember which.

 

[a1tinkfans]

From reports, they were not aware she was pregnant.

Horrifying..
compounding the Rape, it’s added Insult to Injury that not a single person in charge of her care.. in 9 mos, knew she was pregnant.
Beyond comprehension!

 

[Hikergirl]

Requesting a DNA sample but not forcing them? Do you think the perpetrator is going to willingly volunteer?

I'm not sure how there could be evidence pointing to a particular person.

That is what an investigation is for.

 

[SgtTibbs]

You're right, it would be a travesty of justice if "every mail employee" had to submit DNA. I mean, what does the post office have to do with this?

Luckily, though, it's just "male employees." And possibly not necessarily all, since the article linked didn't use that word. I think it's very possible that the DNA request was specifically directed toward likely suspects.

OK, ya got me on the typo. But why not any postal carrier that had access to the building? Or any visitor to that floor, any janitor, maintenance worker, hospital executive.

 

[a1tinkfans]

Personally feel that heads should roll, and not just the perp. Director, Management on down the line. The entire facility (likely receiving govt dollars) should be under multiple Investigations.
Strength and prayers for her family, who have already been thru a living nightmare now dealing with his Horror!

 

[bcla]

OK, ya got me on the typo. But why not any postal carrier that had access to the building? Or any visitor to that floor, any janitor, maintenance worker, hospital executive.

That might be considered a fishing expedition. There's nothing specifically wrong about a broad requirement with a court order, but it would probably need to be tailored to men working at the facility who could have gotten the patient pregnant and not new employees.

 

[CarolAnn856]

OK, ya got me on the typo. But why not any postal carrier that had access to the building? Or any visitor to that floor, any janitor, maintenance worker, hospital executive.

Please point out where the article (or any other source) said "all male employees." If that's the case, then I concede that you have an argument to make. Otherwise, you're making broad and baseless assumptions and manufacturing a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[bcla]

Personally feel that heads should roll, and not just the perp. Director, Management on down the line. The entire facility (likely receiving govt dollars) should be under multiple Investigations.
Strength and prayers for her family, who have already been thru a living nightmare now dealing with his Horror!

Not sure this is anything where heads roll. The medical industry includes a lot of people who could have individual access to patients and there's nothing unusual about it.

 

[Hikergirl]

Is there an article that states "some" male employees?

 

[mnrose]

I think an employer CAN force it in these circumstances. Of course, the employee CAN refuse to cooperate. And, if they do, they might lose their job and I'd be ok with that. Employers do and ask lots of things of their employees as a condition of employment. Employees are always free to decline. But, they might not like what happens when they do.

 

[lifesavacation]

This sounds like a Law & Order episode.

I think an employer CAN force it in these circumstances. Of course, the employee CAN refuse to cooperate. And, if they do, they might lose their job and I'd be ok with that. Employers do and ask lots of things of their employees as a condition of employment. Employees are always free to decline. But, they might not like what happens when they do.

I believe I read that the facility consulted their attorneys and were told they could not force their employees to provide a DNA sample. Though I'm still confused how law enforcement was able to get a court order. I thought that was not allowed, which is why they sometimes go through discarded trash to get DNA samples.

 

[mnrose]

This sounds like a Law & Order episode.



I believe I read that the facility consulted their attorneys and were told they could not force their employees to provide a DNA sample. Though I'm still confused how law enforcement was able to get a court order. I thought that was not allowed, which is why they sometimes go through discarded trash to get DNA samples.

I'm sure it's partially state dependent. I was speaking rather generically...in a former life, I was a labor and employment attorney. I know enough about it to get it wrong only 1/2 the time. LOL. I do think a court CAN order that if there is probable cause. Personally, as a male employee of that facility who WASN'T involved, I'd be stepping up to volunteer simply so they COULD get catch the creep who did it. Most men, I assume, would think the same. I'd BADLY want the creep gone and would do my part to make it happen. Now, if I was the guy who did it....uh, I'd be all over insisting that every legal "t" was crossed and all "i's" dotted before I'd "volunteer."

And, I'm sure we will be seeing this on Law and Order, SVU soon....

 

[Pea-n-Me]

A couple of points from The NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/09/us/vegetative-state-birth-woman.html

The police collected the DNA of male employees of a private nursing home in Arizona on Tuesday as they continued to investigate allegations that a woman in a vegetative state there who gave birth to a child last month had been sexually assaulted, the nursing home’s parent company said.

The move represented an escalation in the case, just one day after the longtime chief executive of the company resigned. The police in Phoenix announced Friday that they had opened the investigation into the alleged assault.

In a statement, the company that manages the nursing home — Hacienda HealthCare — said police investigators had served a search warrant to obtain the DNA. A spokesman for the company, David Leibowitz, emphasized that Hacienda HealthCare welcomed the action by the police, noting that the company itself had sought to conduct voluntary genetic testing of its staff, but that the company’s lawyers had concluded that doing so would be illegal.

“Hacienda stands committed to doing everything in our power to bring this police investigation to a quick conclusion,” the company statement said. “We will continue to cooperate with Phoenix Police and all other investigative agencies to uncover the facts in this deeply disturbing” situation.

It was not clear how many male employees were tested. Sgt. Tommy Thompson of the Phoenix Police Department declined to comment on the case Tuesday night other than to say, “We still have an ongoing investigation.”

 

[Pea-n-Me]

And from the same article above:

Episodes in which incapacitated patients are raped and become pregnant are not unprecedented, though they are rare.

In 1996, a woman from Rochester, who had been in a coma for a decade after a car accident gave birth to a two-pound baby boy. When her belly began swelling, workers at the care facility in Brighton, N.Y., tested her for intestinal blockages, but they later determined through DNA testing that she had been assaulted by a nursing assistant, who was found guilty of rape and imprisoned.

Experts at the time said that was the country’s first recorded episode of a woman in a chronic vegetative state giving birth. The case drew additional attention because the woman, whose name was Kathy, was Catholic, and her parents chose to allow the pregnancy to continue and eventually adopted the child. Kathy died before the boy’s first birthday.

New York State subsequently passed “Kathy’s Law” in 1998, which imposed stiffer penalties for health care workers found guilty of abusing patients in nursing homes. That same year, a woman in a coma at a home in Massachusetts gave birth to a baby girl prematurely and with severe brain damage. According to a report by The Associated Press at the time, after the police asked for blood samples from male employees, a registered nurse’s aide was convicted of rape and sent to prison.

Horrible. I do remember reading about other cases like this.

In those cases, nursing assistants were found guilty.

 

[GreatLakes]

Wasn't this a Law & Order episode?

ETA: Yep. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0629283/

I wouldn't comply. I won't do the Ancestry
DNA and I would fight this. Since I wouldn't be guilty hopefully I drag it out long enough that the guilty party was found.

The government can't keep our data safe what makes anyone think one of their DNA databases won't be breached if it hasn't already.