Will the monorail ever be expanded?

[doconeill]

I misunderstood you post. I thought you meant they were clearing so they could check sight lines, in advance of doing something. (Balloon might be next step).

Clearing to improve sight lines is more likely.

Yes, my mistake, I wasn't clear...only the Monorail really gets a view from there, so there could be something more to it...but I have also heard that it helps improve the view further up the beam for the pilots...

 

[Elizabeth&ColinsDad]

Like many others I believe that it enhances the Magic.

So here is my thought:
Run Monorail to AK and DHS. Maybe one from TTC and one from Epcot.
Add cars to Monorail.

Runs all buses to Monorail during Value Season and Most Buses to parks during Peak Season.

This way if you want the Monorail experience you can have it and if you don't you can go to the park directly.

I believe the costs provided are on the high side. They probably include acquiring the land which is already owned. I would figure 75-85 million per mile

If you add $2.00 to each park ticket per day or maybe less you will make up the difference in approx. 3-4 years and this is based on numbers from a down years attendance.

So for every family of 4 staying 7 days your looking at $56.00 per stay and Monorail can be extended.

 

[peter11435]

I believe the costs provided are on the high side. They probably include acquiring the land which is already owned. I would figure 75-85 million per mile

If you add $2.00 to each park ticket per day or maybe less you will make up the difference in approx. 3-4 years and this is based on numbers from a down years attendance.

So for every family of 4 staying 7 days your looking at $56.00 per stay and Monorail can be extended.

You seem to be assuming that they would only need a couple miles of track which is far from the truth. There are currently almost 15 miles of track and that only connects 2 parks and 3 hotels. Using your low estimate of 75 million those 15 miles would cost well over 1 billion today. How many years would it take to pay for that investment at just $2.00 per ticket.

 

[skiingfast]

You seem to be assuming that they would only need a couple miles of track which is far from the truth. There are currently almost 15 miles of track and that only connects 2 parks and 3 hotels. Using your low estimate of 75 million those 15 miles would cost well over 1 billion today. How many years would it take to pay for that investment at just $2.00 per ticket.

15 miles for 1B, 2 dollars per ticket, about 50M guests a year? Under 10 years assuming visitation continues to rise. Not too bad. How long did it take for profit to cover the cost of building WDW in the 70s?

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

If they truly cared about guest experience and being a leader in innovation this would have already been done. I'm sure the monorail is no more expensive today than when it was first built, relatively speaking, but today the tail wags the dog rather than in their most innovative years when the dog still retained his motor functions.

 

[chartle]

If they truly cared about guest experience and being a leader in innovation this would have already been done. I'm sure the monorail is no more expensive today than when it was first built, relatively speaking, but today the tail wags the dog rather than in their most innovative years when the dog still retained his motor functions.

Nothing is wagging anything and today building a monorail to service what WDW has become would be cost prohibitive compared to what they did years ago.

During Walt's time the monorail was the way to go and very efficient.

At the time you had the MK, the TTC and the two hotels all arranged nicely around a small lake. A very simple loop that was easily serviced by a train like vehicle. When they added Epcot it was also easy to add a small spur line and connect the park to the other park and the hotels. We are now at 5 transportation nodes with one station switch.

After that all hell breaks loose building wise. We are now at four theme parks, two water parks, 24 on-site themed hotels, and other entertainment and recreational venues throughout the entire 47 square mile resort complex(per Wikipedia).

A fixed track inflexible transportation system like the monorail doesn't work. Buses do work. I'm not saying there are issues that can happen with a particular bus but if it happens the system can adjust. For the whole bus system to breakdown it would require some thing like a bomb scare that can happen on any system.

Sometime this week there was a post about the Epcot line being down at closing due to a power failure, how did they fix it, they called the buses. The more spread out and flexible the system the harder it is to break. One bad $3 circuit breaker on a monorail can bring down the entire system.

I see more things like hybrid or full electric buses on the horizon, maybe driver-less . Though its probably a little harder for WDW to justify the added cost when the diesel ones still work.

My local mass transit system has them but I bet the the initial added cost to purchase them was subsidized by state or federal grant money that Disney would not have access to as a private company.

 

[chartle]

Like many others I believe that it enhances the Magic.

So here is my thought:
Run Monorail to AK and DHS. Maybe one from TTC and one from Epcot.
Add cars to Monorail.

Runs all buses to Monorail during Value Season and Most Buses to parks during Peak Season.

This way if you want the Monorail experience you can have it and if you don't you can go to the park directly.

I believe the costs provided are on the high side. They probably include acquiring the land which is already owned. I would figure 75-85 million per mile

If you add $2.00 to each park ticket per day or maybe less you will make up the difference in approx. 3-4 years and this is based on numbers from a down years attendance.

So for every family of 4 staying 7 days your looking at $56.00 per stay and Monorail can be extended.

Not everyone wants an enhanced Monorail experience. Most people would want the quickest way to the park experience.

You are saying that there are now two bus systems one that connects you to a monorail station for an enhanced transportation experience and one that takes you directly to where you want to go.

Disney could do a little experiment to see how this would go over.

They could take a bus from the AKL going to the MK. The bus on the way stops at the TTC, the bus driver then asks if anyone wants to get off the bus, walk a couple hundred yards to a ramp, walk up the ramp, wait for the next monorail and then ride the monorail to the MK or you can stay on the bus and get there in about 10 minutes. How many people are going to get off? I would say zero and if its August and 90 degrees its going to be even less.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Nothing is wagging anything and today building a monorail to service what WDW has become would be cost prohibitive compared to what they did years ago.

During Walt's time the monorail was the way to go and very efficient.

At the time you had the MK, the TTC and the two hotels all arranged nicely around a small lake. A very simple loop that was easily serviced by a train like vehicle. When they added Epcot it was also easy to add a small spur line and connect the park to the other park and the hotels. We are now at 5 transportation nodes with one station switch.

After that all hell breaks loose building wise. We are now at four theme parks, two water parks, 24 on-site themed hotels, and other entertainment and recreational venues throughout the entire 47 square mile resort complex(per Wikipedia).

A fixed track inflexible transportation system like the monorail doesn't work. Buses do work. I'm not saying there are issues that can happen with a particular bus but if it happens the system can adjust. For the whole bus system to breakdown it would require some thing like a bomb scare that can happen on any system.

Sometime this week there was a post about the Epcot line being down at closing due to a power failure, how did they fix it, they called the buses. The more spread out and flexible the system the harder it is to break. One bad $3 circuit breaker on a monorail can bring down the entire system.

I see more things like hybrid or full electric buses on the horizon, maybe driver-less . Though its probably a little harder for WDW to justify the added cost when the diesel ones still work.

My local mass transit system has them but I bet the the initial added cost to purchase them was subsidized by state or federal grant money that Disney would not have access to as a private company.

Thanks for the very informative post. Now, I hope you don't mind if I say I disagree.

Prohibitive how exactly? Cost effective??? It was a colossal waste of money according to the bean counters then and was way, way out of proportion compared to the rest of the original budget. The monorail wasn't meant to be WDW's main mode of transportation, it was an imaginative, over the top way of outdoing what had already been done at DL. The MK didn't need to have the monorail or the ferry boat, alternatives easily could have been developed but thankfully Disney still believed in doing GREAT things no one else would even dream of.

The same holds true today. If WDW wanted to just bury any thought of serious competition from anyone the monorail would be expanded within the realm of showing the world just how public transportation can be done, Disney style. Just like Walt would do.

Money cannot be the impediment to innovation, if it is you no longer have an innovative company, you just have a company.

 

[chartle]

15 miles for 1B, 2 dollars per ticket, about 50M guests a year? Under 10 years assuming visitation continues to rise. Not too bad. How long did it take for profit to cover the cost of building WDW in the 70s?

I think they would rather spend 1b on a new 5 th park that would make them money, not a system that would require them to raise ticket prices just to try to cover the costs.

People already think Disney costs too much, how are you gong to sell this increase to pay for something they don't need.

 

[ChrisFL]

Money cannot be the impediment to innovation, if it is you no longer have an innovative company, you just have a company.

Wow, I think I'm going to quote that! (I mean in other places, not just here, lol)

 

[DC7800]

A fixed track inflexible transportation system like the monorail doesn't work.

First, exactly how is a "fixed track transportation system" inflexible? On the contrary, the fixed, dedicated right-of-way is often a railroads (or monorail, light rail, etc.) greatest asset, not a drawback.

Second, rail (track) based systems work very efficiently (and more cost effective than alternatives) in places like Washington, Philadelphia, Miami, Jacksonville, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, and other points around the nation. So, how is it then that such transportation systems work so well in these other locations but won't work in Walt Disney World?

A monorail can make a direct trip from resort to threme park just as easily as a bus; Just because the system is not set up that way presently is no basis to conclude it cannot be done, nor that it would not be completely "cost prohibitive".

Money cannot be the impediment to innovation, if it is you no longer have an innovative company, you just have a company.

I so miss Disney being more than "just a company".

 

[skiingfast]

I think they would rather spend 1b on a new 5 th park that would make them money, not a system that would require them to raise ticket prices just to try to cover the costs.

People already think Disney costs too much, how are you gong to sell this increase to pay for something they don't need.

This is a poorly posed question. Disney tickets prices have had an upward trend. They built plenty of things I don't need with that extra money. Sometimes they build things and then take them out. I guess Disney didn't need them either.

 

[chartle]

First, exactly how is a "fixed track transportation system" inflexible? On the contrary, the fixed, dedicated right-of-way is often a railroads (or monorail, light rail, etc.) greatest asset, not a drawback.

Easy, a power failure on a train shuts down the entire line.

Requiring ...... wait for it ...... Buses as a backup.

Inflexibility of trains is a flaw inherent in the system. The tracks are nailed to the ground.

Second, rail (track) based systems work very efficiently (and more cost effective than alternatives) in places like Washington, Philadelphia, Miami, Jacksonville, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, and other points around the nation. So, how is it then that such transportation systems work so well in these other locations but won't work in Walt Disney World?

Completely different scenario, I would say none of those people people go directly to the train station from their home. I would say all of them either drive to the station or take a local bus.

If the hotels that Disney served where out as far as people come from in DC or Los Angeles it makes sense.

A monorail can make a direct trip from resort to threme park just as easily as a bus; Just because the system is not set up that way presently is no basis to conclude it cannot be done, nor that it would not be completely "cost prohibitive".

Ok I didn't want to pull out the math but you made me.

If you connect every hotel, park and other areas of WDW with direct connections the amount of of lines would be ....

(n*(n-1))/2 where n=the number of places that need connected. Had to ask sons what the formula would be.

So lets say if certain resort areas could share we could maybe come up with 10 areas???? So that makes 45 direct lines at maybe an average of 4 miles per line makes 180 miles of monorail track. At $10m per miles comes to 1.8 b.

Oh and the station at the MK would spill out into the lake.

I'm not anti monorail really i'm not I'm anti people with doe eyed looks that come with odd ways to pay for something that is going to cost a boat load of money.

The best: Disney could make a hit movie and use the proceeds to pay for the expansion. It the old movie plot, a bunch of kids siting around trying to come with ways to save fill in the blank. One of them stands up and says "I know lets put on a show".

 

[chartle]

This is a poorly posed question. Disney tickets prices have had an upward trend. They built plenty of things I don't need with that extra money. Sometimes they build things and then take them out. I guess Disney didn't need them either.

Nothing anywhere near this large though that impacts every single guest to the parks.

 

[chartle]

Money cannot be the impediment to innovation, if it is you no longer have an innovative company, you just have a company.

Ok last one and I'm thinking of unsubbing this thread.

I don't think Disney is or wants to be a transportation innovator. Its not in their business plan.

 

[skiingfast]

Nothing anywhere near this large though that impacts every single guest to the parks.

Are you sure? Would that also be the case with extending the monorails? Tha nobody would want it?

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Ok last one and I'm thinking of unsubbing this thread.

I don't think Disney is or wants to be a transportation innovator. Its not in their business plan.

Oh, I agree. But being an innovator has no (or should have no) boundaries. Walt didn't plan to go where he went but look where success and his imagination took him. Now, before people say but that was Walt, that was a long time ago, business is different today. To which I say Pixar. They took Disney's model and modernized way better than Disney had itself. Succeeded by being innovative, not by being MBA's, and then sold Disney a Company that was, in essence based on Disney. What irony that was.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Wow, I think I'm going to quote that! (I mean in other places, not just here, lol)

Thanks.

 

[DC7800]

Easy, a power failure on a train shuts down the entire line.

Requiring ...... wait for it ...... Buses as a backup.

Inflexibility of trains is a flaw inherent in the system. The tracks are nailed to the ground.

A failure for any reason of one train on a line doesn't take the entire line out of service. In a fully implemented monorail network, with a few strategically placed switches you merely run around the stalled train. Even on the Epcot beam as it exists today, if one monorail becomes disabled the other three trains on the line can run in shuttle mode between the TTC and Epcot stations until the work tractor can get there. A power failure on the entire beam would shut it down, but the solution to that is redundancy in the system, something WDW doesn't really have today, but which would be a natural consequence of an expanded monorail system.

Buses will always properly be a part of the WDW transportation picture, just as they were prior to the Epcot monorail expansion, and available to backup the monorial, ferryboats, or whatever. But the whole potentially disabled monorail argument is mistaken; Railroads solved these very problems something like 150 years ago, and it literally isn't rocket science.

Oh, and railroad tracks aren't nailed to the ground.

Ok I didn't want to pull out the math but you made me.

If you connect every hotel, park and other areas of WDW with direct connections the amount of of lines would be ....

(n*(n-1))/2 where n=the number of places that need connected. Had to ask sons what the formula would be.

So lets say if certain resort areas could share we could maybe come up with 10 areas???? So that makes 45 direct lines at maybe an average of 4 miles per line makes 180 miles of monorail track. At $10m per miles comes to 1.8 b.

Oh and the station at the MK would spill out into the lake.

Uh...What???

When you connect any of Disney's existing resorts to the theme parks, do you build a different road for each resort? Of course not, they all use World Drive.

The three current monorail connected resorts, to the MK, also do not each have a separate monorail line - they share a loop, of course. So, why would you assume that additional monorail resorts - to provide direct theme park access - would each need a private monorail beam?

Think of the TTC-Epcot beam as the mainline, probably extended to the Studios and then to Animal Kingdom. You build branches to other destinations (Blizzard Beach), sidings for resort stations, etc. (or monorails may passs through resorts without stopping - express theme park service). Again, this isn't rocket science, and its not that difficult!

The best: Disney could make a hit movie and use the proceeds to pay for the expansion. It the old movie plot, a bunch of kids siting around trying to come with ways to save fill in the blank. One of them stands up and says "I know lets put on a show".

If Disney would only stop utterly wasting money on brilliant business moves like Go.com, airplane leases for bankrupt airlines, overpaying for the Fox Family Chanel, and the like, you would have enough money to pay for a monorail expansion of your dreams - and maybe a fifth theme park to go with it.

Again, despite everything we say here, its not going to happen anyway. Disney can certainly afford it, even at inflated cost estimates, but buses are cheaper. There is no will at Disney to do anything like this, and few people who appear to be able to see past this quarters financial numbers. The show and guest experience aren't what matters anymore.

 

[Markstudy]

Again, despite everything we say here, its not going to happen anyway. Disney can certainly afford it, even at inflated cost estimates, but buses are cheaper. There is no will at Disney to do anything like this, and few people who appear to be able to see past this quarters financial numbers. The show and guest experience aren't what matters anymore.

When Walt died, it was the end to trying cool new things at Disney. He was the ultimate risk taker. The MBA's and CPA's that run Disney now have lost the ability to dream, and turn dreams into dollars.