Will Euthanasia ever be legal for humans?

[cteddiesgirl]

I think it should be up to the person, and not the government or the doctor. I know if I was suffering and on a feeding tube, or in a vegetable state, I'd want to be taken off support. That's my wish and don't believe the doctor should have a say, and the government for sure shouldn't.

Exactly!

Instead of encouraging quality end of life care, end of life is encouraged.

Where exactly is the quality of life while hooked up to a machine and basically a vegetable?

It is all about death and the people living. They are completely being selfish towards the person who is suffering and dying. "Oh, he/she has to live longer because I'll miss them too much".
That is what people are really saying. Not "It's better because he/she is going to a better place".

I can't understand why people, especially religious people who believe in Heaven and the afterlife, would have such a problem with death.
Isn't a life in Heaven what we are trying to acheive? And isn't hooking an otherwise dead person to a mchine to keep them "alive" a way to cheat the natural death?

It also befuddles me as to why when a horse or some other animal has a simple broken leg that they must be "put down" to keep them from suffering.
But does anyone say that when a human breaks a leg? Aboslutely not.

This is very much a double standard in our society.

But, I do believe that end of life care is very important. Make the person as comfortable as possible. But don't try to artificially prolong that life.

I didn't realize that it was so strict with non-insured patients. That just doesn't seem right.

Of course things are more strict with non-insured patients.
The doctors, nurses, hospices and hospitals all want their money. And non-insured patients do not guarantee any kind of payment. Even if the insurance won't cover everything, they will at least get something out of it.
One thing I am very glad about in the state I live in, if a person goes to a hospital and checks themselves in, as long as no one signs anything besides the patient, the family cannot be held responsible for any payment.
Unfortunately, not everyone can do this.
This is where living wills come in. Also unfortunately, not everyone (including courts) will abide by living wills.

Everyone should have to experience first hand watching someone slowly die from a painful, degenerative disease - then ask them what they think of assisted suicide. Better yet, make them a fly on the wall of a hospice or nursing home where the employees steal their possesions, slap them, pinch them, don't clean them properly, etc. all while they're crying out in misery.
The way we treat our sick and elderly in this country is shameful.

Yes it is. And I've seen too much of it.

I certainly hope not! People and animals are not the same. God has his own plan as to when it is our time to die and we are not to mess with that plan.

So God must not have a plan as to when animals die? Oh, he must not care about anything else He created. Only his humans.
Maybe God's plan for someone to die is not the same as the family of the one laying there in the bed dying. That's the problem with this.
We are artificially prolonging life when they would have normally died (in other words, when God planned it for).
And please remember that not all people believe in God.

 

[Shugardrawers]

I have actually had to consider and make a decision about this for myself. When/if I am given a terminal diagnosis, and all reasonable avenues of recovery have been exhausted, I'll say my goodbyes and go take care of the matter myself. Aside from not wanting to suffer personally, I'm not going to put my family through that. I'll do it in such a way that no member of my family has to be involved. I'll probably run into Feralpeg out there in the desert and we'll have a final toast. It's my life, my health and my suffering. So it's MY decision.

Besides the many patients in my support group I've seen suffer a horribly painful death, I watched my grandfather do the same thing. One day he "lost track" of how many morphine doses he'd had that day. I'll step up and say it's the best thing he'd ever done for himself or his family.

Obviously, strict controls need to be in place to prevent abuse but there's no reason that mentally healthy adults can't make their own decisions regarding their quality of life or that of their terminally ill family members.

 

[Blondie]

I think a Morphine IV drip is legal euthanasia. Not only does it help with the pain, it depresses respiration. I think it helps escort the patient right on out the door.

 

[MzDiz]

Are you saying then that killing them is better?

Yep.

I certainly hope when and if I'm given the diagnosis of a month of horrible pain and inevitable death that someone will inject me with enough morphine to kill a horse. That way I can say my goodbyes in a dignified fashion and not have to keep my family on a miserable death watch for weeks. Get it over with, lickety split like.

 

[LoraJ]

Assisted suicide is not suicide. If you act to end someone's life by doing anything other than denying medical assistance (and in some cases, this too) you have contributed to their death and as I said, there is already a name for that. If you want to die, do it yourself. Involving others sets in place a whole chain of actions that don't belong in society - especially legally.

What is the difference between the person who takes the patient off of life support where the patient will then suffer in pain for days or weeks and the family member who provides the patient with something to help them die peacefully and not have to suffer any longer? For most patients who wish they didn't have to live anymore, they do not have the means to get out of bed and get whatever it is they need to end their own lives.

 

[mrsltg]

Yep.

I certainly hope when and if I'm given the diagnosis of a month of horrible pain and inevitable death that someone will inject me with enough morphine to kill a horse. That way I can say my goodbyes in a dignified fashion and not have to keep my family on a miserable death watch for weeks. Get it over with, lickety split like.

Why would you involve someone else? If you want to die, you should. That's your choice. But step up to the plate and do it yourself.

And cteddiesgirl, I agree with you. I don't believe in life at all costs. Again, it's up to the person though, not those caring for them, to decide if they want their life to end. You have the choice to specify your wishes through a living will and choosing a responsible healthcare proxy. I don't believe that there is quality of life in living on most machines. Read my first post. I clearly say that I believe there is too much done in most cases.

Not to mention, your generalizations about hospice are just that. My mother works for a hospice in NY state. They except gov't payment. People without insurance aren't turned away. They are not simply concerned with earning money and if that has been your experience I am sorry. Personally I have never met a more dedicated group of healthcare providers. Of course they need to be paid - businesses don't run on pixie dust.

Finally, are you suggesting a person should be euthanized for a broken leg? A horse suffers terrible pain depending upon the break. A human leg heals and usually leaves behind no pain and if it does, it's more than manageable. I don't really understand where you're going with this. Sure you can put down an animal. An animal and a person are not the same. I think we determined this when we started eating animals and stopped eating humans.

 

[jodifla]

Why would you involve someone else? If you want to die, you should. That's your choice. But step up to the plate and do it yourself.

And cteddiesgirl, I agree with you. I don't believe in life at all costs. Again, it's up to the person though, not those caring for them, to decide if they want their life to end. You have the choice to specify your wishes through a living will and choosing a responsible healthcare proxy. I don't believe that there is quality of life in living on most machines. Read my first post. I clearly say that I believe there is too much done in most cases.

Not to mention, your generalizations about hospice are just that. My mother works for a hospice in NY state. They except gov't payment. People without insurance aren't turned away. They are not simply concerned with earning money and if that has been your experience I am sorry. Personally I have never met a more dedicated group of healthcare providers. Of course they need to be paid - businesses don't run on pixie dust.

Finally, are you suggesting a person should be euthanized for a broken leg? A horse suffers terrible pain depending upon the break. A human leg heals and usually leaves behind no pain and if it does, it's more than manageable. I don't really understand where you're going with this. Sure you can put down an animal. An animal and a person are not the same. I think we determined this when we started eating animals and stopped eating humans.

This seems pretty naive. People ill enough to want to kill themselves often don't have the means to. That's why they ask for help.

 

[mrsltg]

What is the difference between the person who takes the patient off of life support where the patient will then suffer in pain for days or weeks and the family member who provides the patient with something to help them die peacefully and not have to suffer any longer? For most patients who wish they didn't have to live anymore, they do not have the means to get out of bed and get whatever it is they need to end their own lives.

There is a difference between keeping someone alive artificially. And who says they are suffering? A family member providing something is called "murder" or at the least, "manslaughter". You can't kill people no matter how profound your reason. If things are so bad, you need to handle it before you get to that point. Who's to say that Uncle Bob actually wanted to die? There in lies the crux of the problem. There is no way to seperate those who want to die from those whose family had another interest.

 

[LoraJ]

There is a difference between keeping someone alive artificially. And who says they are suffering? A family member providing something is called "murder" or at the least, "manslaughter". You can't kill people no matter how profound your reason. If things are so bad, you need to handle it before you get to that point. Who's to say that Uncle Bob actually wanted to die? There in lies the crux of the problem. There is no way to seperate those who want to die from those whose family had another interest.

Well my boyfriend's dad was screaming all night long at us that he didn't want to live anymore. And there's nothing we can do. There was nothing he could prepare for it before he went into the hospital because as far as he knew he was going to have surgery to remove the tumor. He didn't know that it had spread to his stomach. So he didn't bring a bag of death pills with him to the hospital. Sometimes cancer spreads so fast, there isn't time to prepare for this.

And of course I don't advocate euthanasia for humans if they have a broken leg. Only if a patient is suffering and there is no hope for them to live.

Are executioners murderers then? WHy aren't they in jail? Why does someone on death row get to die a painless death when someone with a terminal illness has to suffer?

 

[phillybeth]

Well, some would say it is being done in this country, but we do it under the guise of "pain relief".

I know for a fact it is. My grandmother was dying of cancer, in a coma for the last week of her life. The hospice nurse had us giving her full doses of Ativan and morphine every two hours- not to mention the multiple pain patches. We all knew why she gave those instructions.

IMO, though, there is a difference between speeding death for someone who is no more than days or hours away, and ending someone's life because it is thought that they only have months to live. A lot can happen in a few months, diagnoses can be wrong, etc.

 

[VampHeartless]

I'm not a fan...my philosphy has always been support life, at all costs. That whole "rage against the dying of the light" thing.

I already told my wife she better not ever pull the plug, and we've decided to be crycogenically frozen together in the doggy style position.

 

[cteddiesgirl]

Why would you involve someone else? If you want to die, you should. That's your choice. But step up to the plate and do it yourself.

But most people are unable to do it themselves. Especially when we are talking about the types of situations we are getting to.

And cteddiesgirl, I agree with you. I don't believe in life at all costs. Again, it's up to the person though, not those caring for them, to decide if they want their life to end. You have the choice to specify your wishes through a living will and choosing a responsible healthcare proxy. I don't believe that there is quality of life in living on most machines. Read my first post. I clearly say that I believe there is too much done in most cases.

Not to mention, your generalizations about hospice are just that. My mother works for a hospice in NY state. They except gov't payment. People without insurance aren't turned away. They are not simply concerned with earning money and if that has been your experience I am sorry. Personally I have never met a more dedicated group of healthcare providers. Of course they need to be paid - businesses don't run on pixie dust.

Um. The are required by law to not turn away people in need of health care. And yes, they accept government payment. But many people are not on government provided healthcare.
I'm well aware that healthcare is a business. And that is the problem these days. It's become a health business, not a health care. And there in also lies another problem. The longer healthcare providers have a "live" person to "care" for, the more money they get.

Finally, are you suggesting a person should be euthanized for a broken leg?

I'm not even going to dignify this with an answer.

A horse suffers terrible pain depending upon the break. A human leg heals and usually leaves behind no pain and if it does, it's more than manageable. I don't really understand where you're going with this. Sure you can put down an animal. An animal and a person are not the same. I think we determined this when we started eating animals and stopped eating humans.

And humans don't suffer terrible pain when they have broken bones? I know quite a few people who would argue against that.
And speaking of terrible pain, don't women have terrible pain when they give birth? And don't humans have terrible pain for all these ailments that you are suggesting that they suffer through?
It is a double standard to make humans suffer when we won't "allow" animals to. So why do we care more about animals "suffering" than we care about human suffering? Animals can be rehabilitated when they have injuries. Just like humans can. But when it gets to the point where they are already dying while in a lot of pain, then we do not need to be prolonging life. In both humans and animals.

Bottom line, let people decide for themselves if they want to die. I see nothing wrong with helping a person to die with they dignity they deserve.

 

[SeaSpray]

I just can never understand why it's the humane thing to do when an animal is suffering. But when a human is suffering, and in so much pain and screaming out every single day for God to take them already, why do they have to continue to suffer?

These were my exact questions after literally watching my mother die 2 1/2 years ago. She wasn't screaming though because she had Alzheimer's and had lost the ability to speak about a year prior. She was definitely alert (I mean, awake and able to physically feel pain). The decision was made (by my father) at the end, to take her off of all feeding and all hydration. Basically, they/we WERE killing her. Murder. How freaking humane is KNOWINGLY doing this to someone IN ORDER FOR THEM to die??

The medications we gave her did basically nothing. From what I understand, once the body gets to the state of deterioration prior to death, it's not functioning like a normal body would; in other words, you might be giving them "pain medication", morphene, whatever, but it may be doing nothing at all because their bodies are not metabolizing it correctly. Sure, a HUGE overdose would end the life quickly and painlessly, but that's NOT what hospice does, that's not the amount of "medication" hospice gives you,and it's not what the law allows. Basically, I got to sit next to my mother and watch her suffer and die, right before my eyes, whereas if it had been my CAT, the police could've been called on me for treating it INHUMANELY.

I'm sorry but I feel VERY strongly about this. HOW ON EARTH CAN WE TAKE AWAY A HUMAN'S FOOD AND WATER AND WAIT WATCH THEY DIE???? WHY NOT JUST GIVE THEM A HUGE OVERDOSE IF THE END RESULT IS GOING TO BE THE SAME??

And I am NOT talking about situations where there are ANY questions. I am talking SOLELY talking about situations where a decision HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE, to end another human's life. So, THE END RESULT is the same. But with the way things are now, we're forced to make our loved ones SUFFER before they die.

When filling out my boyfriend's dad's living will, I noticed this paragraph:
Euthanasia. It is my intent and direction that any person making
decisions pursuant to this Directive shall have all powers available under the law
as it now exists or as it may be expanded by statute or case law including but not
limited to any rights regarding euthanasia in order to effectuate my wishes that
my life not be prolonged when its quality is diminished and that I die with dignity
without unnecessary pain and suffering. I direct that upon my request or upon the
request of any Attorney-In-Fact designated by me with the power to make health
care decisions, that my physician provide aid in dying so that I might die in a
dignified, painless and humane manner.


Do you think it may be a possibility in the future? Is it because the doctor in essence is commiting murder that in may never be legal?

Maybe they'll eventually enforce something like this.....

 

[Disney Doll]

Anymore morphine would probably be an illegal dose. He can't get into hospice because he is self pay and they will only take one self-pay patient at a time. I guess dying with dignity is only for those with insurance, for everyone else, you have to get lucky.

Lora, you are uninformed about pain management.

There is no such thing as an illegal dose of morphine. You give someone as much morphine as they need to control their pain.

I have followed your story about your DBF's dad, and I am amazed that the hospital he is in is allowed to remain open, based on the treatment you have described.

As far as hospice, unfortunately there are many hospice institutions that do rely on actually receving payment...not all get any other kind of funding from the government etc.

That being said, as a nurse in an acute care hospital, I have cared for many dying patients who were unable to get into hospice for the reasons you outline, but we perform hospice level of care in the hospital. If he is in that much pain, he should be on an IV drip of Morphine or Dilaudid, or at the very least, a topical patch pain reliever (such as a Fentanyl patch...they come in different doses) or an oral long-term pain reliever (such as OxyContin...very appropriate for a terminally ill cnacer patient).

 

[Disney Doll]

He doesn't want a drip.He had one before and didn't like it.

So he's refusing the Morphine drip, not being denied it? That's somewhat different.

You might want to ask his doctor if a pain patch would be appropriate as an alternative.

 

[Disney Doll]

This is exactly what was going through my head. Every penny I worked so hard for my entire life gone, and possibly putting my family in deep debt. The hosptial and drs are racking in the money and I am suffering? doesn't make sense to me.

I have a living will. My fear is no one in my family will have the guts to follow through with my wishes.

You know, very often the hospitals and doctors are trying to make a person a DNR, and the family wants everything done.

I have had the conversation thousands of times with family members about what their wishes are for another family member who cannot make the decision, and most of the time the response is "do everything". I then go on to explain what "everything" entails, which isn't pretty, and their response doesn't change.

I know it's hard to let loved ones go. But it is truly the final act of love.

 

[Disney Doll]

I think a Morphine IV drip is legal euthanasia. Not only does it help with the pain, it depresses respiration. I think it helps escort the patient right on out the door.

You are correct.

 

[LoraJ]

So he's refusing the Morphine drip, not being denied it? That's somewhat different.

You might want to ask his doctor if a pain patch would be appropriate as an alternative.

He has a pain patch. They also give him Xanax I guess to relax him. Nothing helps. The doctor told him that he should get a morphine drip, but he would onlybe allowed to have X amount of morphine a day and he would be in control of how pushing the button. But, his dad was worried that he would use too much of it up at once and be stuck for hours without anymore (this may have happened to him the last time he had it). His dad prefers controled dosage. I'll ask about upping it, but wouldn't there be a point that upping it may actually cause him to OD? He must weigh only 75 pounds now if even.

 

[Pigeon]

Having watched my mother's last days dying from lung cancer, I'm 110% in favor of doctor assisted suicide. If a patient is terminal and wants it, a doctor should be able to provide an overdose.

I'm not a believer in life at all costs, and it's not a mentality I understand at all. What my mother went through in her last days was far worse than dying. Dying is normal part of life.

 

[paigevz]

I'm not a fan...my philosphy has always been support life, at all costs. That whole "rage against the dying of the light" thing.

I already told my wife she better not ever pull the plug, and we've decided to be crycogenically frozen together in the doggy style position.

That sounds EXACTLY like something my husband would say!