Why Treat AP Holder Worse than non-AP Holders?

[PamNC]

an airline ticket without knowing how much it would end up costing you? I'm uncomfortable with this plan for many reasons, but one major reason is I need to know what I'm paying before I book. I'm not one of the over zealous types who make 2 or 2 different reservations, then let it play out and see what discounts are offered, then cancel. We always waited to see what the discounts were, then we book. I KNEW this would eventually become a problem with so many people locking up the rooms and calling 2 or 3 times a week, heck...2 or 3 times a day, checking on discounts. But, hey, Disney is the one who has been elusive about the discounts...so it's their fault, not the over zealous folks. The answer is to offer a straight % discount for AP holders, even if they have to make it less of a discount. Then, there would be no guessing, no wondering and folks that CAN'T book that far in advance wouldn't be punished.

As long as it's an "option" I guess I'm okay with it. But, mark my words, if this test does well...it'll become the one and only way for us to book. Hence, I will consider not renewing my AP and in turn I won't be visiting 2 or 3 times a year. So, Disney will be losing lots of money from me. And many others I suspect.

PamNC

 

[NCombs]

NCombs,

Who knows if this is really going to work out for me or not. Until this actually gets going, nobody really knows.

I agree that it's way to early to say this is going to be a bad program when not all the information on it has been released yet.

You're right-who knows-but I wish people would give it a chance first. I hope it works out for you, though. If so, keep us posted.

 

[Sammie]

See-perfect example. It looks like it will be a good thing for you. That's great. For me, no, I don't think it would work. But, I'm certainly not upset it is being implemented.

This is an example of information getting out so early on the internet, it must really be a hassle for Disney. They haven't even gotten a chance to get things rolling and I'm sure they have hundreds of emails from people already saying how terrible the plan is and how upset they are. I best most don't even understand everything about the program and if it actually replaces anything or is just an additional option.

You are so right, but no need to worry. Disney is quite used to the "sky is falling mentality" of some Internet users. Or even worse those that think Disney is a charity instead of business in business to make money.

 

[DebbieB]

See-perfect example. It looks like it will be a good thing for you. That's great. For me, no, I don't think it would work. But, I'm certainly not upset it is being implemented.

This is an example of information getting out so early on the internet, it must really be a hassle for Disney. They haven't even gotten a chance to get things rolling and I'm sure they have hundreds of emails from people already saying how terrible the plan is and how upset they are. I best most don't even understand everything about the program and if it actually replaces anything or is just an additional option.

And why is that? Because Disney did not communicate that information. They posted this program on the passholder website but did not say anywhere that traditional AP rates may still be available. It wasn't an "internet leak", they posted this program on their website on Friday, then left the weekend for everyone to clamor for information, assuming the worst. They do a bad job of communicating. It seems like anytime they announce something new, they don't have their cm's trained on it, they don't have a package of information to travel agents, there is just mass confusion.

 

[Sammie]

And why is that? Because Disney did not communicate that information. They posted this program on the passholder website but did not say anywhere that traditional AP rates may still be available. It wasn't an "internet leak", they posted this program on their website on Friday, then left the weekend for everyone to clamor for information, assuming the worst. They do a bad job of communicating. It seems like anytime they announce something new, they don't have their cm's trained on it, they don't have a package of information to travel agents, there is just mass confusion.

It is only mass confusion to active Interet forums users. The rest of the world does not get up in arms about this kind of stuff. I am not saying anyone here does not have a right to be upset. Everyone has a right to be upset about anything that bothers them. I just do not see why some feel Disney owes them the type of discounts that have been offered in the past.

Sometimes the problem is the Internet user knows more about the situation then the person selling it. This happens at Disney alot. Disney management knows this. But in a company with 55,000 workers, everything does not always run smoothly. Anyone that works for a mega company will understand that. There is always a weak link. Sometimes it just takes time for problems to happen before they can be solved.

Then compound the problem with Internet or computer problems along with the human ones and you can see what they are dealing with.

This program is not for everyone wanting to visit Disney. It was not intended to be for everyone. It is not even for every AP holder. It is certainly not for the person who can not plan ahead or does not have a fixed amount they are going to spend on a particular room.

 

[DebbieB]

They should anticipate how it will come out on the internet, it's a major group of their customers. I'm not saying that they owe any discounts at all. They should know that there would be resistence to the 120 day rule and the non-refundable. Fine, if that's what they want to do. But they shouldn't have travel agents or guests in contact with their "CRO sources" in order to find out the whole story. They should have announced the "whole story" in the first place so there would not be confusion. I guess it's because I also work for a "mega company" as a trainer (not as big as Disney but more than half) and find Disney's communciation methods and training lacking. You don't throw out a new program like this without making sure everyone who is in contact with the public is fully trained.

 

[Sammie]

They should anticipate how it will come out on the internet, it's a major group of their customers. I'm not saying that they owe any discounts at all. They should know that there would be resistence to the 120 day rule and the non-refundable. Fine, if that's what they want to do. But they shouldn't have travel agents or guests in contact with their "CRO sources" in order to find out the whole story. They should have announced the "whole story" in the first place so there would not be confusion. I guess it's because I also work for a "mega company" as a trainer (not as big as Disney but more than half) and find Disney's communciation methods and training lacking. You don't throw out a new program like this without making sure everyone who is in contact with the public is fully trained.

I completely agree. But as a trainer you will find this amusing. I have a friend in managment at Disney that says you can train and train and test and test and it seems that they are ready to go and the front line is confident. And you can send them out to the masses and the Internet savvy will rip them to shreads, and they fall apart and can't remember a single thing they learned in training class.

 

[MagicKingdom05]

PamNC,

You know going in that the most you will pay for the room per night is the rack rate, so it's not like you won't have a clue what your rate will be until you check in. For example if your staying at Poly and the per night rack rate is $320 then you know that you won't be paying anymore than that.

 

[srfrgrl07]

And now we know how they intend to pay for MYW... so instead paying a limo service $100 for transportation, you get it "free", just for paying rack rate at the hotel.. great deal: an additional $18 to $75 per night (read: $750 over 10 days) to save $100....

people still receive the discounts on their rooms and get ME for free...so that reasoning is not logical. not to mention limo service typically costs more than $100. and for those that drive to orlando, they are not spending any more money than they used to on transportation, other than the price of gas which disney has no control over anyways. there are many families who are paying less than they did for a wdw vacation than they did say 3 or 4 years ago becasue of myw, and if they are traveling at the right time also getting free dining, so they are spending less!

 

[gullyf]

people still receive the discounts on their rooms and get ME for free...so that reasoning is not logical. not to mention limo service typically costs more than $100. and for those that drive to orlando, they are not spending any more money than they used to on transportation, other than the price of gas which disney has no control over anyways. there are many families who are paying less than they did for a wdw vacation than they did say 3 or 4 years ago becasue of myw, and if they are traveling at the right time also getting free dining, so they are spending less!

The reasoning is quite logical. Yes there are still discounts available, but they are going to be fewer and smaller than in the past. As far as the cost of a limo goes, I believe we took one for $85 last year. We alos had to schedule a van for one trip, and that was only $120 IIRC. 'Free Dining' is just a way to slowly move away from room discounts.. don't expect it to last. Basically, this is all about getting back to 'rack rates' only, in a manner that causes the least upset. They are trying to 'wean' people off room discounts gradually, and at the same time reduce the load on the call centers. The downside to all this is they will lose many of us that have AP's who aren't local and used to make multiple trips each year just because airfare and hotel rates coincided to make a quick trip possible without spending a fortune. They have also stated publicly that they want to move more people towards DVC, which certainly is good for them (lesee, for each room, I potentially get $14000 (+/-) + $700 (+/-) annual maintenance fees, potentially from each of 50 (+/-) people, and I still own the thing and greatly reduced housekeeping costs). I just can't believe how many people think that is a good deal, but to each his own and that discussion belongs elsewhere.
What it all boils down to is that they will lose many AP holders, and many of us will no longer make rather impromptu visits. I for one was considering going for a second time this year in early Dec, but pretty much have shelved that. Will I still venture down for a family vacation? I am sure, but I can see it being 5 years down the road instead of two or three times a year. Will I pay full prices? Maybe.. or maybe I will stay offsite, or I'll have built on property I have in FL and just go for a day or two. Anyway you look at it, they will lose some of my $, which I am sure doesn't concern them as they will get a higher margin from someone else- maybe.

 

[mickeyluv]

The non-refundable deposit is my one huge problem with the new program. I can understand that if they can sell out their rooms at rack rate, they have no need to offer any discounts at all. But to make one group put down a non-refundable deposit when no one else has to is unreasonable.

I totally agree with this statement. The only part that really gets me with this recent plan that they have come out with is the non-refundable deposit!! I'll never use this system as we can't plan 120 days out due to our work schedules and I'm not about to lose money on a deposit!!!!

 

[BostonRob]

The reasoning is quite logical. Yes there are still discounts available, but they are going to be fewer and smaller than in the past. . . Basically, this is all about getting back to 'rack rates' only, in a manner that causes the least upset. They are trying to 'wean' people off room discounts gradually

This is probably all true. But if tourism is picking up again, who can blame them? Disney will set their prices at whatever the market will bear. If they have trouble selling rooms, the discounts will come back - if there's no vacancy, then we've probably seen the end of discounts.

Similarly, if nobody renews their AP's you may see Disney revert back to the old AP discount system. Then again, if Disney continues to fill its parks and sell its rooms, even in the absence of their old AP customers, then the AP program may dry up entirely. Why should disney care if its parks are filled with people who come once a month or with people who come once every 3 years, as long as the parks are full?

 

[gullyf]

I don't follow you. Sorry - can you try that again?

I think you are talking about M.E., which is available to everyone staying onsite for free and doesn't have anything to do with the particular room or package you are staying on.

Am I missing something?

Apologies.. got my acronyms mixed ! I did indeed mean ME... and you have to remember that it is a trial program as well... where it goes in the future is not dependent on what it is today... look at the direction and the trend (of these Disney programs and corporate trends in general)

 

[lllovell]

Apologies.. got my acronyms mixed ! I did indeed mean ME... and you have to remember that it is a trial program as well... where it goes in the future is not dependent on what it is today... look at the direction and the trend (of these Disney programs and corporate trends in general)

That is what I figured lol too many acronyms for me sometimes too.

I agree about M.E. I figure one of two things is going to happen here. It is going to be wildly popular and the restaurants are going to make a killing and park admissions will stay very high and they will decide its worth the cost and continue to make it free (or minimal cost) to try to keep people onsite. OR - they are getting us all spoiled and 18 months from now, they will raise the price back to the typical Mears price and that will be that.

I honestly suspect the first will happen. I think that anything they can do to get us there and keep us there is the #1 goal and from what I can see trying to get a ressie (PS or AR or whatever they are called these days) at a park restaurant is getting harder and harder according to my experience and the chatting on the restaurant board.

This goes back to my arguement about AP holders. If we are the bread and butter (as I have always heard...though - who really knows), they won't allow this new program to run us off. I do agree that a full room is a full room, but I also KNOW that AP holders are the ones making multiple trips vs. a family that takes 1 trip every 5 years. Demand will obviously dictate future discounts, but I think there will always be a level of "discount" for AP holders, we might just have to move quicker to get them. (in the past, I have gotten AP rates at the last minute often for short weekend trips - I dont see that happening anymore).

 

[gullyf]

I agree about M.E. I figure one of two things is going to happen here. It is going to be wildly popular and the restaurants are going to make a killing and park admissions will stay very high and they will decide its worth the cost and continue to make it free (or minimal cost) to try to keep people onsite. OR - they are getting us all spoiled and 18 months from now, they will raise the price back to the typical Mears price and that will be that.

I honestly suspect the first will happen. I think that anything they can do to get us there and keep us there is the #1 goal and from what I can see trying to get a ressie (PS or AR or whatever they are called these days) at a park restaurant is getting harder and harder according to my experience and the chatting on the restaurant board.

I too suspect that ME will continue as a "value added" perk, costing you nothing. The trade-off will be the move back to 'rack rates' and a drastic reduction in both the discount and room availability. Everything points to "weaning' people off room discounts. The 'free dining' promotion could almost be considered an epiphany to that end.

This goes back to my arguement about AP holders. If we are the bread and butter (as I have always heard...though - who really knows), they won't allow this new program to run us off. I do agree that a full room is a full room, but I also KNOW that AP holders are the ones making multiple trips vs. a family that takes 1 trip every 5 years. Demand will obviously dictate future discounts, but I think there will always be a level of "discount" for AP holders, we might just have to move quicker to get them. (in the past, I have gotten AP rates at the last minute often for short weekend trips - I dont see that happening anymore).

I really wish there were some #'s available as far as annual passholders go. It would be interesting to know what % of park population uses an annual pass on the average. I'm not so sure, especially with these changes, that the current management values them so highly. Mind you, I can understand that perhaps abuse patterns led to this response. What I don't understand is that there have to be many other ways to both curb the abuses and limit the number/amount of discounts without what amount to additional fees and penalties from what are certainly your most frequent visitors. That just seems to follow the banking/credit cards, airlines, and others in the move toward fees and penalties as profit generators. No one wants to provide extra services or attract new customers, so lets get all we can out of our existing customer base. Treat them poorly, but make it look like their fault.

As for my family, I am contemplating whether it will be worth renewing our AP's given these changes. We were considering a Dec trip if rates were good: we'll probably just go somewhere here in the Northeast instead.

 

[lllovell]

I really wish there were some #'s available as far as annual passholders go. It would be interesting to know what % of park population uses an annual pass on the average. I'm not so sure, especially with these changes, that the current management values them so highly. Mind you, I can understand that perhaps abuse patterns led to this response. What I don't understand is that there have to be many other ways to both curb the abuses and limit the number/amount of discounts without what amount to additional fees and penalties from what are certainly your most frequent visitors. That just seems to follow the banking/credit cards, airlines, and others in the move toward fees and penalties as profit generators. No one wants to provide extra services or attract new customers, so lets get all we can out of our existing customer base. Treat them poorly, but make it look like their fault.

As for my family, I am contemplating whether it will be worth renewing our AP's given these changes. We were considering a Dec trip if rates were good: we'll probably just go somewhere here in the Northeast instead.

I agree - I wish there were public numbers available as well. I also don't really know if they are giving more discounts (like DDE and 25% off shows) as a way of replacing room discounts, but I do see this as a way for them to better determine their needs to provide discounts at all. In that instance, I do agree with you. I think that they will provide a set number of discounts per 90 day period (at probably 130 days out) and see how many :Best Rate: customers have signed up for them and how many rooms are left at 70 days out and then decide if they want to give an additional number of rooms at the same AP rate or a lower one. It is simply a tool IMO to fill the most rooms. I do think there was TERRIBLE abuse of people making multiple reservations and not releasing them until 10-15 days out (making them harder to book for WDW). I also agree that some changes in the current system might have worked better at fixing the old system, but I don't think this is a fix so much as a differernt direction.

Everyone is doing this now - the whole "book early" and save the most. Granted until the dropped below rack rates, they weren't doing it. Also, once again, sure seems like they don't know what is going on over there (especially since the system has apparently been down for long periods today where they are making changes I think). All of it is poor planning on Disney's part.

I hope they get the whole thing ironed out, the booking cycle through the middle of December goes through and the bugs are all gone and then we can make some real judgements about how its going to work or not work. We will keep our APs because even if we stay off-site, I know my family will make multiple trips to WDW next year.

 

[BostonRob]

I really wish there were some #'s available as far as annual passholders go. It would be interesting to know what % of park population uses an annual pass on the average. I'm not so sure, especially with these changes, that the current management values them so highly.

I'm curious too. Personally (and this is just conjecture) I think the number is much lower than people here seem to think. I'd guess that annual passholders account for 5% or less of WDW's business.

 

[lllovell]

I'm curious too. Personally (and this is just conjecture) I think the number is much lower than people here seem to think. I'd guess that annual passholders account for 5% or less of WDW's business.

Maybe - but there HAS to be a direct link between how much AP holders spend versus a regular guest or it makes no sense why you would hang onto 5% of your revenues and continue to attempt things like the new DVC AP discount and DDE and 25% off shows (along with the discounts already in place like 10% off dining, 10% off goods at World of Disney, etc).

If AP holders are only 5%, then why try so hard to keep them coming back and spending more by giving discounts that cost you money?

 

[snyderla]

Supposidly, this is a separate plan for AP Holders, not the only way to get an AP rate. If you are willing to put down a non-refundable deposit, you will be guaranteed the best possible rate. If you don't want to do that, then you can wait to see if AP rates come out through the current channels.

Oh! I didn't know you could still get the AP rate the other way, too. I was REALLY wondering what to do about my Dec trip, 2nd & 3rd we are staying at a non DVC resort and I was hoping for a good rate. We might stay at GF if I can get one! (for MIL & Christmas decorations) But, since I won't pick up my AP until Sept trip, and it will be 80 days then between trips, I was afraid I was out of luck completely. Now I can just wait and see if one comes out, then call and book it if I can. Right??? I won't have to have the AP in my hand that way.

Lori

 

[BostonRob]

If AP holders are only 5%, then why try so hard to keep them coming back and spending more by giving discounts that cost you money?

Well lets keep in mind that generally discounts don't COST Disney anything. Like any hotel or cruise ship, an usold room is what costs money. So even if you have to give a huge discount to fill a room (or a themepark), it is still better than making nothing at all on an empty room.

We know WDW has had trouble filling rooms in the past 5 years, hence the discounts both AP and otherwise. My guess is the changes to discounts we're witnessing are indicative of fewer empty rooms.

Another guess I would have is this - that 5% is probably a large percent of their profits. I have no idea what the profit margin is in the entertainment industry, but 5% of any business is worth keeping, right?