Why my most recent experience at California Grill will probably be my last.

[majortom]

In my opinion, CMs are very aware of religious headwear - including turbans & yarmulkes, and they can recognize the difference between those items and say, a Yankees baseball hat.

First, for most Jews there is no specific requirement for any specific type of head covering. A Yankees baseball hat is just as valid as a crocheted kipah or a Shtriemel. Unless Disney has recently decided to be the arbiter of Jewish religious practices, that is not their decision to make.

Second, this policy is new, since I last had a reservation at California Grill. In addition, I myself was not dressed according to this dress code (I was wearing a black t-shirt with a logo on it and nothing was said to me) nor were many others adhering to it (there were quite a few t-shirt-wearing people in the restaurant).

If the OP would have respected that any had his guest adhere to the policy, then his guest wouldn't have been asked 5 times to remove his hat. If the guest was wearing a baseball cap in leiu of another more suitable alternative that would conform to the specified dress code, then he has no right no complain if he is asked to remove it.

Actually, if the first Cast Member had said: "I understand your religious convictions, but we cannot allow you to enter our restaurant wearing baseball hat." You would have a point. At that point, we would either have left or asked to speak to a manager. Once they chose to let us enter, they knew what they were getting and no longer had that right. In fact, that the manager did not ask us to leave, but instead said: "I did not know that someone had already asked you about it." means that it was acceptable to him as a religious head covering.

As I noted earlier, by the time the manager came to speak to us there had to have been a minimum of 3 cast members to whom we had already spoken (check-in, elevator, waiter). In the best interpretation, he just did not bother to go ask anyone what had happened before asking us. The other two options were that he does not expect any of his staff to enforce policies or that he did find out, but chose to hassle us any way.

Finally, even Bridget Sherren, General Manager of California Grill disagrees with you. As I noted in my original post, although she never really apologized, she did not that she was surprised as she herself had told the first Cast member that asked her about it (the one from the elevator) that this was acceptable.

Perhaps, if the OP had followed the recommendations and secured an ADR, they could have been reminded of the dress code and avoided their "problems".

- Ken

If California Grill wishes to require advance reservations to sit in their bar, they have every right to prevent people from going to their bar without them. They do not seem to have that policy. For me to be "reminded" of their dress code, would mean that I had to know about their dress code in advance. From what I have since discovered, this dress code applies to Jiko, Artist's Point and other places that I have eaten in many times since it was instituted. Given that when I am walking around the parks I rarely wear anything more formal than a t-shirt and I usually wear a hat, and that I have eaten at Jiko at least 10 times over the last year (I love their mac and cheese as well as their fish) and I was not even aware that this policy existed (and as I said, I was not even wearing proper attire that evening), it seems clear that this policy is not enforced with any uniformity, which makes me wonder even more why they were concerned about my colleague's hat but no other violations.

/carmi

 

[gina2000]

You posted a site to Jewish Prisoner Services International? Even that site mentions a yarmulke as the preferred head covering.

I've never seen an Orthodox Jew in anything but a yarmulke nor have I heard of them using any other head covering in public.

 

[MareQ]

It was a baseball hat.



You apparently know only a very small subset of observant jews. Many, will just wear a hat if they plan to wear it all day.



/carmi

Many would also wear an apporpriate head covering if planning on eating in a "white cloth" restuarant.

 

[majortom]

Not sure how far in advance but they do take reservations, and I strongly urge you to make them as early as possible.

Anne

All of Emeril's restaurants take reservations 6 months in advance.

/carmi

 

[majortom]

Many would also wear an apporpriate head covering if planning on eating in a "white cloth" restuarant.

We were not planning on eating any where when we started our day. After walking around Magic Kingdom, we decided to stop there for something light.

Again, while you seem to feel it is inappropriate, even Ms. Sherren (their General Manager) disagrees with you.

/carmi

 

[majortom]

Why on Earth did you leave a tip for such service?

That was a small tip for me. Normally I tip 25%-30% for good service.

/carmi

 

[pinchy]

That was a small tip for me. Normally I tip 25%-30% for good service.

/carmi

this is kind of off topic... but 25-30%!

in the UK people would probably think you had lost it if you left that much!

anyhows carmi I sympathise with how you were treated - I think the main point is that the staff should have a more definite policy, communicate more and be polite in enforcing it

I do find it pretty odd when people dress so casual to go to nice restaurants though... dress code or not its just not something I would do... I would never wear shorts, non smart t-shirts, trainers or baseball caps

 

[majortom]

This is where I'm confused. If you've been to the California Grill many times, surely you knew (and could have easily warned your colleague beforehand) that they were going to have a problem with a baseball hat, regardless of the stated reason for it.

I have not had a reservation at California Grill in over a year. Last time I was there (about 6 months ago), 4 of us went for drinks in the bar and given that we had just come from Magic Kingdom, I am sure were wearing t-shirts. No one said anything that time.

Again, even California Grill's own General Manager said that a baseball hat worn for religious reasons was acceptable.

/carmi

 

[java]

I used to work in a line of work with many many Jewish people as well as many Hasidum. Never have I seen a baseball cap being used as a head covering. So while I think the asking over and over again was over the top...I do in a way understand them asking for a baseball cap to be removed. In your list of restaurants I assume that everyone of them would have asked for the ball cap to be removed. I have eaten at most of the ones you have mentioned and they have dress codes of some sort. Would your coworker have worn a baseball cap into any of Emeril's restaurants he would have been asked to remove it. I am very curious as to how a baseball cap is viewed as proper head covering? I am not saying it is not done I am just saying that I (a new yorker that worked in a predominently jewish industry) have never seen it. So I would expect that most in a restaurant would question it. Now the food being bland is reason enough not go back and the having to send your food back twice because of a wrong order is just unacceptable. If you had eaten there several times before I am surprised that you went in your casual attire and it seems like they were being lax on the dress policy for you.

 

[Mad4Dizne]

majortom, I CANNOT believe the treatment you and your friend received. I doesn't matter what type of hat/head covering your friend had on. It is unbelievable and WRONG that he was singled out because of his religious beliefs. The fact is that your service was terrible, your friend was harrassed and the waiter decided to bring you whatever he wanted??? what is up with that????

I certainly understand why that will be your last trip!! and we certainly will not keep it on our To Do list!!

I certainly hope you write a letter to Guest Services/Food & Beverage Manager etc....maybe someone there can help prevent this from ever happening again and at the very least apologize for the harassment of your friend

 

[Sammie]

Disney Food and Beverage (in general) and California Grill (in particular) seem to tweak policies on a regular basis to ensure the worst possible guest experience. Starting with moving the check in downstairs (making it painful to go at the last minute for drinks and sushi at the bar), adding a randomly enforced dress code, charging $20 a person for reservations, etc., etc

.

First let me say and if anyone is going to read this comment and respond to it please do not ignore this first statement: I do not condone rude behavior by anyone whether they work for Disney or anyone else. If the food was bad, then I say the OP has every right to complain.

However I would like to address the comments by the OP that I quoted above. Every thing mentioned is a direct result to changes Disney has made in order to deal with abuses by guests.

Check in downstairs: Gee why did they do this? Because everyone and their brother wanted to go up there to watch the fireworks.

Charging for reservations: again guest abuse, guests would make an ADR to get in the hotel and upstairs, again for what purpose to watch the fireworks with no intention of having dinner.

Dress code: again guest abuse, you had guests that simply had no idea what was proper dress for a restaurant of this caliber.

As with so many things lately changes at Disney that guests that have been going for years and years have noticed; is due to Disney trying to reign in these abuses and from what you read on these forums about how guests try to get away with most everything it aint going to get any better.

And personally I think the CMs have gotten bitter and rude from having to deal with it. Sad to say so many guest lie about so much, that the CMs have gotten to the point they believe very little anyone tells them.

The result is a valuable guest such as the OP is not treated with the proper type of service due to the behavior of others.

Which is one of the reasons Bicker, myself and others, stand by the policy that if we all don't follow the rules, guidelines, and correct behavior of society and in this case Disney, we all suffer for it.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

.

First let me say and if anyone is going to read this comment and respond to it please do not ignore this first statement: I do not condone rude behavior by anyone whether they work for Disney or anyone else. If the food was bad, then I say the OP has every right to complain.

However I would like to address the comments by the OP that I quoted above. Every thing mentioned is a direct result to changes Disney has made in order to deal with abuses by guests.

Check in downstairs: Gee why did they do this? Because everyone and their brother wanted to go up there to watch the fireworks.

Charging for reservations: again guest abuse, guests would make an ADR to get in the hotel and upstairs, again for what purpose to watch the fireworks with no intention of having dinner.

Dress code: again guest abuse, you had guests that simply had no idea what was proper dress for a restaurant of this caliber.

As with so many things lately changes at Disney that guests that have been going for years and years have noticed; is due to Disney trying to reign in these abuses and from what you read on these forums about how guests try to get away with most everything it aint going to get any better.

And personally I think the CMs have gotten bitter and rude from having to deal with it. Sad to say so many guest lie about so much, that the CMs have gotten to the point they believe very little anyone tells them.

The result is a valuable guest such as the OP is not treated with the proper type of service due to the behavior of others.

Which is one of the reasons Bicker, myself and others, stand by the policy that if we all don't follow the rules, guidelines, and correct behavior of society and in this case Disney, we all suffer for it.

Standing ovation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!

FYI, I went to the CG for the first time back in 2004. Even then I knew you had to not wear "park clothes" to the restaurant. It was known then to wear things like dress pants and such.

 

[debaudrn]

Ditto LindsayDunn. I first went to the CG many years ago and knew way back then that it was a "dress up" restaurant as I tell my kids. I do think the cast members didn't communicate with each other but in their defense a "baseball" cap is not standard religious attire. My son is 12 and has known since he could walk that we do not wear baseball caps in any restaurant and that includes McDonald's! I think the cast members went a tad overboard but I also believe the OP (if he has been to the CG many times) also should have known better.
IMO.

 

[metivier]

.

First let me say and if anyone is going to read this comment and respond to it please do not ignore this first statement: I do not condone rude behavior by anyone whether they work for Disney or anyone else. If the food was bad, then I say the OP has every right to complain.

However I would like to address the comments by the OP that I quoted above. Every thing mentioned is a direct result to changes Disney has made in order to deal with abuses by guests.

...

And personally I think the CMs have gotten bitter and rude from having to deal with it. Sad to say so many guest lie about so much, that the CMs have gotten to the point they believe very little anyone tells them.

The result is a valuable guest such as the OP is not treated with the proper type of service due to the behavior of others.

Which is one of the reasons Bicker, myself and others, stand by the policy that if we all don't follow the rules, guidelines, and correct behavior of society and in this case Disney, we all suffer for it.

Incredibly well stated. Another "ITA" here. An unfortunate example of how people can abuse the "system" to a point where those that are NOT abusing the system get treated poorly.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Several thoughts.
1. Let's assume that his friend was asked 3 times to take off a ball cap. At one point it was 5 or 6, now it seems it's down to 3 So let's go with 3 or 4. The first was downstairs. The second, elevator. So we're down to maybe 1-2 times upstairs. Well for one other than. SEND UP 6 MORE!!!, I doubt there would be much back and forth between the downstairs crew and the upstairs crew. The downstairs probably told someone to pass it on and it wasn't. Well I'd be a bit annoyed but hardly enough to make an issue over it. The fact is, they asked him to take off a baseball cap. How are they supposed to know a baseball cap is a religious object? They would be well within their rights to ask him to take it off or leave because a ball cap hardly qualifies for religious protection. But by his own admission each staff member let him keep it on once they knew of its significance. So other than a lack of communication, I really don't see a problem here. There's no religious persecution here. There just isn't any evidence that he was singled out for his religios beliefs.
2. The rant ripped on $20 ressie fee? Yet by his own admission, the op wasn't subject to it as he made no reservation. So why is it included? Piling on. Just looking for more reasons to deadpan a place.
3. The check in downstairs. Why should anyone have any problem with that? The fact is they were innundated with people popping up to the bar without ressies and crowding the place during fireworks and hindering legitimate patrons enjoyment. From posts here, it got to the point where people would crowd into the window areas near tables they weren't even eating at. I almost didn't go due to that. I don't know about everyone else, but if I go through all the trouble to make my ressies, and go out for a nice business casual dinner, I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry up there interrupting my experience, that I am paying good money for. The process is smooth. They bring you up. I had to wait 10 minutes downstairs before they'd let me go up to the bar because it was full. and I had a reservation. I had no problem with it.
4. As to not getting a table. He didn't reserve one. He got exactly what he said he wanted at the check in podium down stairs. A drink and some sushi at the bar.

The OP had a bad experience. He got some food he didn't like and some bad service. They probably thought it was just another bunch trying to abuse the system and treated em badly. Now that is in and of itself a problem that needs to be addressed. But there's certainly not sufficient evidence of religious persecution and part of the rant was indeed piling on.

 

[majortom]

I used to work in a line of work with many many Jewish people as well as many Hasidum.

Glad to hear that. I went to a Jewish school for 13 years, a Jewish camp for 5, worked there on staff for 2 years, am an active member of 3 synagogues, and I myself often wear a baseball hat instead of a kippa. I do personally am not observant enough to keep my head covered all the time

Never have I seen a baseball cap being used as a head covering.

And you know this how? You have asked every person that you have seen in NYC if they are wearing a baseball hat for religious reasons?

Here is an article from AskMoses.com as another reference for you non-Jews that want to explain to me what valid Jewish practice is: Why do Jews wear a kippa?

Technically, you can use anything to cover your head-baseball cap, pillowcase, etc.

In your list of restaurants I assume that everyone of them would have asked for the ball cap to be removed. I have eaten at most of the ones you have mentioned and they have dress codes of some sort. Would your coworker have worn a baseball cap into any of Emeril's restaurants he would have been asked to remove it.

None of the Emeril's restaurants prohibit hats of any kind. Feel free to call them. To make it easier for you, I will include their phone numbers (and their stated dress code from their web sites):

Emeril's New Orleans - (504) 528-9393

Attire: Smart/Business Casual. Jackets and ties are optional. No shorts allowed and no sleeveless shirts on gentlemen.

Nola - (504) 522-6652

Attire: Casual to Business attire. No tank tops or cut offs please.

Emeril's New Orleans Fish House - (702) 891-7374

Attire: We recommend business casual attire. However, smart-casual attire is completely acceptable. We ask that gentlemen not wear sleveless shirts.

Delmonico Steakhouse - (702) 414-3737

Attire: We recommend business casual attire. However, smart-casual attire is completely acceptable. We ask that gentlemen not wear sleeveless shirts.

Emeril's Orlando - (407) 224-2424

No attire listed on the website.

Emeril's Tchoup Chop - (407) 503-2467

Attire: We recommend business casual attire. However, smart-casual attire is completely acceptable. We ask that the gentleman not wear sleeveless shirts.

Emeril's Atlanta - (407) 564-5600

Attire: We recommend business casual attire. However, smart-casual attire is completely acceptable. We ask that the gentleman not wear sleeveless shirts.

Emeril's Miami Beach - (305) 695-4550

Attire: We recommend business casual attire. However, smart-casual attire is completely acceptable. We ask that the gentleman not wear sleeveless shirts.

Mario Batali's Babbo - (212) 777-0303

We accept reservations up to one month in advance to the numerical date, and for parties of no more than six people. We have no formal dress code, and jacket are tie are not required.

the having to send your food back twice because of a wrong order is just unacceptable.

I never had to send my food back. I told the waiter what I wanted and he read me back something different twice. I corrected him each time, and finally when it arrived, it was (basically) what I ordered.

If you had eaten there several times before I am surprised that you went in your casual attire and it seems like they were being lax on the dress policy for you.

According to AllEarsNet.com this dress code change was made in July 2005. I had only been to California Grill one time since this policy was changed. Since it seems that hats are all the actually care about (I was wearing a t-shirt on both occasions and was never bothered about it), I had no knowledge of this new policy.

/carmi

 

[DebIreland]

I don't think the OP is objecting to the CMs asking that his colleague remove his cap, he's frustrated because he was asked repeatedly - I agree with him that was unnecessary and unprofessional on the restaurant's part especially considering the general manager had told her staff that it was not a problem.

Also I want to add, regarding the type of hat, I cannot speak about jewish tradition but I know that even in the Catholic church many older women still observe the 'cover your head in church' rule (even though, strictly speaking it's no longer a 'catholic' rule) and once the head is covered it doesn't matter whether it's a dressy hat, a head scarf, a neck scarf pulled up to cover the head or any other garment, the important thing is that the head is covered, the fabric/style of hat is irrelevant to many observing the faith. I am guessing that is the exact same type of thinking that the OPs colleague had. He needs to keep his head covered and a baseball hat is his choice of covering. It makes sense and that's all the restaurant needed to know.

Just my thoughts.

 

[majortom]

Several thoughts.
1. Let's assume that his friend was asked 3 times to take off a ball cap. At one point it was 5 or 6, now it seems it's down to 3 So let's go with 3 or 4.

It was 5 times. It has not changed. To simplify for you I will list them again:

Check-in Cast Member (forth floor).

Elevator Cast Member (who had just gone to confer with Check-in Cast Member and then who mentioned it to the General Manager standing at the podium with several other Cast Members - based on the General Manager own admission)

Unknown Cast Member (wearing same costume as all other non-managers).

Waiter

Pete (or Paul, I cannot remember what Ms. Sherren called him), the assistant manager.

Well for one other than. SEND UP 6 MORE!!!, I doubt there would be much back and forth between the downstairs crew and the upstairs crew. The downstairs probably told someone to pass it on and it wasn't.

Again, Ms. Sherren herself said that she was told by the Elevator Cast Member, so it was in fact communicated.

Well I'd be a bit annoyed but hardly enough to make an issue over it. The fact is, they asked him to take off a baseball cap. How are they supposed to know a baseball cap is a religious object?

They were supposed to know because they should have communicated over it. California Grill claims they have a dress code. They force guests to check in before they take the elevator upstairs. If a guest does not conform to the California Grill's dress code, why allow him or her in the elevator in the first place? If I had walked up to the elevator in a speedo with no shirt or shoes, who here thinks I would have been allowed in the elevator?

Every cast member upstairs should have known that before we were even able to sit down at a cocktail table in the bar, we must have spoken to at least two other Cast Members. Each Cast Member upstairs had two choices: Ask the Cast Members at Elevator or podium, or go ask the guest. Clearly asking the guest would require less effort, but given that there was a (strong) possibility that the guest had already explained the situation, it seems that checking with other cast members before talking to a guest would have made more sense.

They would be well within their rights to ask him to take it off or leave because a ball cap hardly qualifies for religious protection.

In fact, they would have been within their rights to refuse to allow someone in to the restaurant wearing a kippa (there have been several Supreme Court rulings to that effect, one involved the Ida Crown Jewish Academy's basketball team - the school that my sister attended).

But by his own admission each staff member let him keep it on once they knew of its significance. So other than a lack of communication, I really don't see a problem here. There's no religious persecution here. There just isn't any evidence that he was singled out for his religios beliefs.

I have no specific knowledge of why they chose to focus on my colleague's hat. I never stated that it was religious persecution. I do find it interesting though that it was the only part of their dress code that they chose to enforce even with my party! According to their dress code (as described in AllEarsNet.com - the only place I could find it on returning to my house to search for it), t-shirts are not allowed. I was wearing a t-**** as we many others in both the restaurant and the bar. I was never questioned about that. In fact, my colleague was dressed much better than I was, wearing a button up short sleeve shirt and khakis.

2. The rant ripped on $20 ressie fee? Yet by his own admission, the op wasn't subject to it as he made no reservation. So why is it included? Piling on. Just looking for more reasons to deadpan a place.

I commented on this and other policy changes (all but one of which I discovered in my web searches in response to this incident) because I think they are attacking the wrong problem, a serious drop in quality of food and service at California Grill.

3. The check in downstairs. Why should anyone have any problem with that?

I personally do not like it because I feel it makes it much more difficult to have a spontaneous visit. You and other apparently do like it (as is your right). I talked about issues that bothered me.

4. As to not getting a table. He didn't reserve one. He got exactly what he said he wanted at the check in podium down stairs. A drink and some sushi at the bar.

I did not ask for a table in the restaurant. I was not interested in a table in the restaurant. My point about the waiter was that he did not offer anything (including a welcome to the restaurant). Given that there were many open tables in the restaurant the whole time we were there, it would have been smart (and in fact courteous) for him to see if we would be interested in sitting in the dining room, once he found out that we were interested in ordering food. It was a minor point and if it were the only issue, I would not have bothered to post.

They probably thought it was just another bunch trying to abuse the system and treated em badly.

Exactly how would it have appeared to anyone that we were "trying to abuse the system"? We arrived, sat down, ordered a $65 bottle of wine from the reserve list, ordered some food, ate and left (after spending $70 a person - probably a higher per person check average than many in the restaurant).

/carmi

 

[majortom]

You posted a site to Jewish Prisoner Services International? Even that site mentions a yarmulke as the preferred head covering.

I've never seen an Orthodox Jew in anything but a yarmulke nor have I heard of them using any other head covering in public.

Then I guess you have not seen many Orthodox Jews. Many members of the Chassidic sect wear Shtreimel (as I noted before). Many wear black fedora (sometimes referred to by other Jews as "Black Hatters" because of this). Finally, how are you able to identify Orthodox Jews by sight (other than using the circular argument of those that are wearing kippot).

Finally, I did not say that my colleague was Orthodox, just that he was an observant Jew. Many observant Conservative, Reform and even Reconstructionist Jews keep their heads covered all the time.

If you would like to learn more about their practices here is contact information for these three branches:

Conservative: United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism
The Rabbinical Assembly

info@rabbinicalassembly.org

Reform: Union for Reform Judaism

Ask the Rabbi

Reconstructionist: Jewish Reconstructionist Federation

/carmi

 

[majortom]

Some general points:

First, California Grill may choose to have any dress code it wants, as long as it enforces it uniformly, in a non-descriminatory fashion. In spite of what some have said, I have no specific problem with dress codes no matter how restrictive, I usually just choose not to eat in restaurants whose dress codes I find too restrictive (a definition that changes depending on where I am and why I am there). I have never eaten at Victoria and Albert's because I am not interested in conforming to their dress code.

I have eaten in Commander's Palace in New Orleans even with their dress code, because I was there on a business trip and had clothes with me that met their standards.

That said, California Grill has a simple binary choice: allow a guest to enter their restaurant or do not allow a guest to enter. Given their new check in procedure (that most of you who seem offended by hat wearing seem to like), that choice should be made before guests enter the elevator to go to the restaurant. If the Cast Members downstairs are unsure of policy as it applies to a particular guest, they may easily contact the MoD and ask for clarification, while asking for the guest to remain downstairs until they receive it.

Once I have been allowed to enter, their choice is made and repeated requests are simply harassment.

Those in the anti-hat group on here, seem to have no problem that California Grill seems to selectively enforce their own policies on dress code. As I noted many times in this thread, many people were wearing t-shirts (including me) and no one seemed to care about that at all.

Again, given their procedures, there are three possible explanations for why we were asked so many times about my colleague's hat:

1) The Cast Members default assumption was that no other Cast Members enforce policy, so they each must act as if that was the case.

2) The Cast Members were too lazy to check with those Cast Members that (based on procedure) they knew we had to have spoken to before getting to them rather than possibly inconvenience us.

3) The Cast Members knew full well what we had answered, and decided that they did not believe us, or did not approve of our answer and so felt it necessary to ask us again.

None of these three reflect well on the restaurant or its management.

Second, in response to those that said they had good experiences at California Grill, I am happy for you. My post was about my experience. You may have or have had a different experience. It was my understanding that this board was to discuss experiences both positive and negative at Disney's restaurants. If that is not the case, and we are only supposed to post positive experiences, then a moderator should feel free to delete this thread, but I would fail to see the value of this board then.

Third, many of you seem to want Disney to enforce a policy that does not actually exist (that is, no baseball hats for any reason). Ms. Sherren herself said that if my colleague was wearing his had for religious reasons, that was completely acceptable. My dress (and that of many others in the restaurant and bar) was not in compliance with their policies, and yet none of you seem to be bothered that they aggressively attempted to enforce something that did not apply and yet made no attempt whatsoever to enforce any other policies.

Finally, I find it incredible that non-Jews are telling me what is acceptable in my religion! You have every right to say that you do not care why my colleague wears a hat, you do not want him in a restaurant in which you are eating. You have no right, however, to tell him (or me) what is acceptable to fulfill the requirements of a religion that you do not practice.

I would never think to tell a Catholic that "most Catholic do not fast on Ash Wednesday, so you should not do so because it is inconvenient to me."

That is offensive beyond words.

/carmi