Why I Gave Up on Walt Disney World

[DGsAtBLT]

I 100% agree that the old fastpass system’s biggest problem was that it penalized late risers. We are not morning people and It did suck that most of the headliners were either gone or had a long return times by the time we arrived.
I think fp+ is great for magic kingdom because we get 3 real fast passes, it’s good for animal kingdom because there are a fair amount of attractions in tier 2 category and is awful at Epcot & HS because we only get 1 usable fastpass at each park.

This one still penalizes late risers or more accurately not crack of dawn risers. I book my FP at 6 AM. I can only get the 3 problematic ones because we have fairly long onsite trips.

Lets not forget that back in the FP- day not every attraction garnered the madness that TSMM did. They didn’t really require the work that one did. There was a lot to be had midday, as well as reasonable lines at attractions that are now on the FP system but weren’t then. My point being, it’s not like we traded every attraction being a problem for just 3. The newest headliners are always going to cause somewhat of an issue until they find that sweet spot where capacity actually meets (or exceeds, wouldn’t that be cool) demand.

Dont get me wrong, I think I’m at the point where I do prefer FP+, but it’s not a more fair or objectively better system it just rewards a different set of people.

Also sorry, I may have gone off on a bit of a tangent lol.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Attempting to go point by point, pardon if the order of some things is a bit off:
-The FP to standby ratio has been further increased to favor FP guests over standby in addition to FP being on significantly more rides than in the past. Multiple cast members have corroborated this on other boards.

-You know what else has increased significantly as of late? Halloween and Christmas Parties. After hours events. Selling the same day twice. That's where your attendance increases are coming from.

-I'm not saying WDW doesn't require planning or hasn't always. I'm saying that the planning is disproportionate, especially for the quality of product you're getting. Spoiler: WDW is NOT the best Disney product in the world. It has unique stuff you can't do anywhere else, sure. But it's also the most disproportionately priced resort for what you are actually getting, by far.

-Sure, tiering is partially for that reason, but it wouldn't be nearly necessary if the parks had more attractions. The DLR parks have nearly as many attractions in their two parks as WDW has in their four. That shouldn't be the case.

-WDW may draw more tourists than other destinations, but AS CURRENTLY RUN, it is absolutely not a higher quality destination than the other Disney parks. If we're looking at it as a World Destination based on quality, it can't compete. It has quantity in the macro sense, but that's about it. If I had to rank which Disney resorts in the entire world I would most like to be at right now, WDW would be in dead last, and that's unfortunate, given that there are still many things they do well and it is by far the closest one to me.

I don't get the impression that you've ever been to a Disney resort out of Florida. I'd encourage you to venture out. WDW is its own beast, in both good ways and bad, and because of that many people have never made it out to the other parks, and they have no concept of how differently they run. Maybe wherever you venture to won't live up to WDW for you, but it would provide perspective on how other Disney resorts are, and can be, just as good, if not better.

In the end, different people vacation differently and Disney is trying to appeal to the most people, but no one feature is going to appeal to everyone and people are going to like/dislike different aspects

I haven't been to all the Disney parks but I have been to Disneyland in California as well as Hong Kong Disneyland. I really liked Hong Kong (largely due to low crowds, Mystic Manor, and Pain the Night). Disneyland was, um, ok I guess. Definitely showed me that I prefer FP+ to the system they have. I hated how they did character meet and greets there and found I got way less accomplished than I thought I would due to crowds. Also unimpressed with Cast Members there vs at WDW. But that is my experience and what works/doesn't work for me and my family.

I think that is the point that, at least, I know I was making - that in the article that prompted this thread, some points I think were universal complaints but a lot seemed to be preferences - and maybe they are reasons that individual "gave up" on Disney, but for others they aren't negatives

 

[disneysteve]

I can't imagine going anywhere and not making at least some reservations months in adavance.

I can't really think of any time we've gone anywhere and made dining reservations months in advance.

We were on vacation a couple of weeks ago in a spot we visit somewhat regularly so we have a couple of favorite restaurants there. I did make a reservation for our arrival night but I only did that a week or two ahead of time.

When we go to Disney, we don't make any reservations in advance generally.

We make our dining decisions day to day based on how we feel and what we are in the mood for. We might book something a day or two ahead of time but that's about it.

 

[disneysteve]

I think I’m at the point where I do prefer FP+, but it’s not a more fair or objectively better system it just rewards a different set of people.

That's a good point. FP+ is far less fair. As a result, we often don't get on the most in-demand attractions at all. Before, we could rope drop and get FPs. Now, that's not a thing anymore. Since we stay offsite, we can't get them 60 days out even if we wanted to try and by 30 days out, they're gone. So we just don't get to do those rides.

 

[PiratesMansion]

In the end, different people vacation differently and Disney is trying to appeal to the most people, but no one feature is going to appeal to everyone and people are going to like/dislike different aspects

I haven't been to all the Disney parks but I have been to Disneyland in California as well as Hong Kong Disneyland. I really liked Hong Kong (largely due to low crowds, Mystic Manor, and Pain the Night). Disneyland was, um, ok I guess. Definitely showed me that I prefer FP+ to the system they have. I hated how they did character meet and greets there and found I got way less accomplished than I thought I would due to crowds. Also unimpressed with Cast Members there vs at WDW. But that is my experience and what works/doesn't work for me and my family.

I think that is the point that, at least, I know I was making - that in the article that prompted this thread, some points I think were universal complaints but a lot seemed to be preferences - and maybe they are reasons that individual "gave up" on Disney, but for others they aren't negatives

And I respect that you have ventured out and not just done WDW a million times.

I just get tired of "oh, that's just the way it is" when that's not the case everywhere and wasn't even the case at WDW not that long ago. And the assumption that the guest is always at fault when it is WDW specifically that built around this system and planning that bears little resemblance to any other destination, theme park or otherwise, around the world. So convoluted that it has fed the development of several sites just like this one.

Do you need to plan to have the best experience everywhere you go? Absolutely!
Do other places, theme park or otherwise, that are equally or more rewarding/interesting require near the level of planning of modern day WDW? In my experience, that's a hard No.

As always, YMMV.

That's a good point. FP+ is far less fair. As a result, we often don't get on the most in-demand attractions at all. Before, we could rope drop and get FPs. Now, that's not a thing anymore. Since we stay offsite, we can't get them 60 days out even if we wanted to try and by 30 days out, they're gone. So we just don't get to do those rides.

PRECISELY. Not at all the way it should be.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

That's a good point. FP+ is far less fair. As a result, we often don't get on the most in-demand attractions at all. Before, we could rope drop and get FPs. Now, that's not a thing anymore. Since we stay offsite, we can't get them 60 days out even if we wanted to try and by 30 days out, they're gone. So we just don't get to do those rides.

Yeah that stinks for offsite guests.

I get it, and I do think Disney needs to provide enough tangible perks to onsite (aside from just the location on property) and I’m glad they do for selfish reasons, but I would be really frustrated if I was being shut out of major headliners not because of a refusal to plan or wake up early, but because of my hotel.

I think it’s important to remember FP+ exists how it does not because it’s best for the guest but because it’s most beneficial for Disney. And if it works out better for some guests, it’s a bonus!

 

[Traveling on cc points]

I’m not sure what you mean by favoritism of FP.

The data is the key thing and FP+ does essentially help spread out crowds or control them in ways disney wants. They have ratios they stick by.

Also not sure what you mean by overall attendance decreasing. The only numbers we have are the AECOM/TEA numbers and those have gone up for the most part every year especially with things like Pandora opening.

Disney has always required some level of knowledge or planning even before FP+ that’s nothing new. You can’t go in to a Disney vacation even at Disneyland with 0 research or planning and expect everything to go perfectly.

Tiering is to spread out crowds and help spread out those FPs. If you didn’t tier the headliners would be worse to get than they already are. And in AK the tier is only for Pandora which was the hot new thing. Its not necessarily due to capacity it’s to spread people out.

Each Disney Park is targeted differently. The current system at WDW wouldn’t work anywhere else. WDW is a world destination. None of the other disney parks are.

I am 100% fine with Animal Kingdoms tiering because they only have the 2 newish rides in tier 1 and there are still quite a few decent options to choose from.
The tiering for Epcot & Hollywood studios is ridiculous.

HS is the worst offender. IMO. they should do slinky, rotR & SR & runaway railroad as tier 1 & everything else as tier 2.

Epcot doesn’t have enough rides right now to have a tiering system. People should be able to choose any 3 fast passes they want. Disney could even require 1.5 hours in between fp (at Epcot only) to spread it out more.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Do you need to plan to have the best experience everywhere you go? Absolutely!
Do other places, theme park or otherwise, that are equally or more rewarding/interesting require near the level of planning of modern day WDW? In my experience, that's a hard No.

maybe it just comes down to personalities as I do nearly the same level of planning for other trips as I do for WDW. For example, a few weeks ago we did a weekend trip to Washington, DC and I had spreadsheets and maps for what we would go see and made dining reservations months in advance - but that is just how I am. Whenever I have gone somewhere and not had plan it stresses me out. So to me, planning for a WDW trip doesn't seem outlandish to me

 

[DGsAtBLT]

I am 100% fine with Animal Kingdoms tiering because they only have the 2 newish rides in tier 1 and there are still quite a few decent options to choose from.
The tiering for Epcot & Hollywood studios is ridiculous.

HS is the worst offender. IMO. they should do slinky, rotR & SR & runaway railroad as tier 1 & everything else as tier 2.

Epcot doesn’t have enough rides right now to have a tiering system. People should be able to choose any 3 fast passes they want. Disney could even require 1.5 hours in between fp (at Epcot only) to spread it out more.

Dropping the tiers at Epcot would result in Soarin’, TT, and FEA all being sold out way in advance. The vast majority would want all 3 and I don’t think the capacity is there to allow that hence the tiers.

I suspect when MMRR opens all 3 of the newest attractions get FP and the tiers look exactly how you suggest. To be honest, I don’t mind everything else being shoved in tier 1 in the meantime, it makes them all so much easier to get day of. I’m really liking the whole no FP at the newest attractions business I wouldn’t be mad if they adopted that going further.

Speaking of DHS, I’m still tickled that the poster child attraction for capacity issues and FP issues, TSMM, is now so easy to ride AND in a few short years that park now has an abundance of worthwhile rides for FP usage that we could almost drop the tiers.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

That's a good point. FP+ is far less fair. As a result, we often don't get on the most in-demand attractions at all. Before, we could rope drop and get FPs. Now, that's not a thing anymore. Since we stay offsite, we can't get them 60 days out even if we wanted to try and by 30 days out, they're gone. So we just don't get to do those rides.

not sure if I agree with "far less fair" - it is just different. The other system if you didn't do rope drop and deal with hoards there were rides you couldn't get on. I prefer to do some work ahead of time, know what we have FPs for and when (and understand we wont' get them for everything) and then plan around that and adjust.

There is the 30 vs 60 day thing for staying onsite vs off - but everyone staying on site or everyone staying offsite has the same chance at things - so that still seems "fair" to me. Just different

But if you don't like pre-planning then it will seem "not as good" for how you prefer to vacation

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Dropping the tiers at Epcot would result in Soarin’, TT, and FEA all being sold out way in advance. The vast majority would want all 3 and I don’t think the capacity is there to allow that hence the tiers.

I suspect when MMRR opens all 3 of the newest attractions get FP and the tiers look exactly how you suggest. To be honest, I don’t mind everything else being shoved in tier 1 in the meantime, it makes them all so much easier to get day of. I’m really liking the whole no FP at the newest attractions business I wouldn’t be mad if they adopted that going further.

Speaking of DHS, I’m still tickled that the poster child attraction for capacity issues and FP issues, TSMM, is now so easy to ride AND in a few short years that park now has an abundance of worthwhile rides for FP usage that we could almost drop the tiers.

EPCOT should be better in the future too - as you will have Ratatoullie, the Mary Poppins attractions, and the Guardians coaster that will all (likely) be very in-demand rides. Plus the redone Spaceship Earth. Adding those to TT, Soarin' and Frozen and that is a good number of rides that I suspect will garner interest

 

[DGsAtBLT]

not sure if I agree with "far less fair" - it is just different. The other system if you didn't do rope drop and deal with hoards there were rides you couldn't get on. I prefer to do some work ahead of time, know what we have FPs for and when (and understand we wont' get them for everything) and then plan around that and adjust.

There is the 30 vs 60 day thing for staying onsite vs off - but everyone staying on site or everyone staying offsite has the same chance at things - so that still seems "fair" to me. Just different

But if you don't like pre-planning then it will seem "not as good" for how you prefer to vacation

I think there is a major difference in the perceived unfairness of FP- and FP+. The former has factors all in your control or mostly at least, the latter is a lot more dependant on finances or other factors that are harder to control because of the onsite vs off-site windows.

Can I also just say I love reviving the old FP+ vs - debate.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I think there is a major difference in the perceived unfairness of FP- and FP+. The former has factors all in your control or mostly at least, the latter is a lot more dependant on finances or other factors that are harder to control because of the onsite vs off-site windows.

Can I also just say I love reviving the old FP+ vs - debate.

well, the fairness of finances and if it is more or less fair to get more if you pay more is probably a discussion for another thread or another forum

 

[Traveling on cc points]

Dropping the tiers at Epcot would result in Soarin’, TT, and FEA all being sold out way in advance. The vast majority would want all 3 and I don’t think the capacity is there to allow that hence the tiers.

I suspect when MMRR opens all 3 of the newest attractions get FP and the tiers look exactly how you suggest. To be honest, I don’t mind everything else being shoved in tier 1 in the meantime, it makes them all so much easier to get day of. I’m really liking the whole no FP at the newest attractions business I wouldn’t be mad if they adopted that going further.

Speaking of DHS, I’m still tickled that the poster child attraction for capacity issues and FP issues, TSMM, is now so easy to ride AND in a few short years that park now has an abundance of worthwhile rides for FP usage that we could almost drop the tiers.

We don’t make any fast passes for Epcot as I feel like it’s is a waste to use that days fp for 1 ride. We just keep an eye on the app and when Soarin wait time is under 30 we head over.
I have only been to Disney once since HS put virtually all rides in tier 1. It happened to be there the week the hurricane was supposed to hit so all the parks were empty and everything was a virtual walk on. We are heading back next week and am expecting worst. Hopefully it won’t be as busy as I think it will be.

I hope you are right and all the tiers will be dropped at some point!

 

[rteetz]

I am 100% fine with Animal Kingdoms tiering because they only have the 2 newish rides in tier 1 and there are still quite a few decent options to choose from.
The tiering for Epcot & Hollywood studios is ridiculous.

HS is the worst offender. IMO. they should do slinky, rotR & SR & runaway railroad as tier 1 & everything else as tier 2.

Epcot doesn’t have enough rides right now to have a tiering system. People should be able to choose any 3 fast passes they want. Disney could even require 1.5 hours in between fp (at Epcot only) to spread it out more.

I agree Epcot and DHS are definitely worse than AK. I think tiers will change again once the SWGE attractions use FP.

 

[RamblingMad]

well, the fairness of finances and if it is more or less fair to get more if you pay more is probably a discussion for another thread or another forum

That’s really the difference. You have to pay up a lot more at WDW for the same attractions at DL to get the good FPs. This is purely economical for Disney. This is why I prefer DL. It’s still just an upscale carnival, but I’m not paying what it costs for a far better travel experience elsewhere.

I’m not going to pay up for a motel 6 hotel experience, which is about what you get out of moderates. And the deluxe hotel prices cost enough that I would rather spend that money elsewhere.

 

[Lashed34]

When you look at the prices of the 3 premier hotels at Universal you can see just how much Disney is overpricing itself on some of its resorts - the comparisons are stunningly higher.

Example - 2 weeks stay at the 3 premier hotels in Sep 2020 around £2000 vs Fort Wilderness £5000. (based on prices from the UK with flights)

 

[Beer Me]

When you look at the prices of the 3 premier hotels at Universal you can see just how much Disney is overpricing itself on some of its resorts - the comparisons are stunningly higher.

Example - 2 weeks stay at the 3 premier hotels in Sep 2020 around £2000 vs Fort Wilderness £5000. (based on prices from the UK with flights)

Are they overpricing if the rooms are selling?

I would love cheaper rates at Disney hotels but demand for rooms is obviously higher than it is at universal.

Universal even includes unlimited front of the line privileges with a deluxe hotel stay and still can’t charge as much as Disney. I’m sure they would if they could. They aren’t cheaper because Universal is benevolent or something.

 

[Lashed34]

Are they overpricing if the rooms are selling?

A very good point, I suppose yes, it's supply and demand and there is a huge demand for Disney resorts.

But apart from better grounds and decor, guests are getting no other benefits than those at any of the value resorts - it's only when you upgrade to Club level that you get extra benefits. So that's a lot of extra money to pay for nicer surroundings and more expensive restaurants.

 

[Moliphino]

This one still penalizes late risers or more accurately not crack of dawn risers. I book my FP at 6 AM. I can only get the 3 problematic ones because we have fairly long onsite trips.

But you can book FP+ from the comfort of your bed and then go back to sleep. Actually, my sister usually has to do the FP+ booking because I'm driving to work at 7am. I can do the ADR booking at 6am.