Why does BWV have the highest fees?

[DVC Mike]

The purpose of a subsidy is to avoid charging a small population of owners for the full cost of amenities designed for a much larger population. In other words, if AKV were only projected to be 50% sold by the end of 2009, those owner should not have to pay the full cost of operating the main pool or front desk.

If the subsidy is calculated properly, it should disappear organically once the resort is completely sold.

Exactly!

I see other threads where people make the assumption that once the DVC subsidy goes away, they expect the MFs to rise by the amount of the DVC subsidy.

 

[DVC Mike]

At this point there really isn't a precedent to suggest that AKV dues will rise by some abnormally high figure just because of the removal of a subsidy and all units coming on-line.

The same goes for BLT.

 

[Carolc]

Thanks, tjkraz, for all the great info.

Back to BWV, are there any planned projects that may increase the mf's more than the 'average' annual percent increase?

And for that matter, do any of the other WDW DVC resorts (aside from AKL, SSR, and BLT) have plans for expansion/new features/major refurb? (things that may potentially affect fees)

Thanks,
Carol

 

[tjkraz]

Back to BWV, are there any planned projects that may increase the mf's more than the 'average' annual percent increase?

And for that matter, do any of the other WDW DVC resorts (aside from AKL, SSR, and BLT) have plans for expansion/new features/major refurb? (things that may potentially affect fees)

The budgets are all out for 2009 and didn't reflect any unanticipated increases. Major projects will occur but they are normally covered by the reserve fund.

The reserves are designed to help soften the blow of the expensive long-term projects. Rather than hitting members with the full cost of a roof replacement every 10-20 years, Disney budgets for that expense right out of the gate and members pay into a fund to cover the expense. A good 20% of our dues goes toward the reserves for things like the roof, exterior painting, parking lot repaving, room refurbishment, etc.

Other minor upgrades and changes are typically worked into the dues without becoming glaringly obvious. In the last 2-3 years DVC has replaced most of the mattresses in rooms, upgraded the sofabeds, bought new patio furniture, etc. These projects were completed without any specific increase in dues. The same will probably hold true of flat panel tv upgrades in the next few years.

That's the how the day-to-day stuff is managed.

When it comes to resort expansions or new features, Disney is typically responsible for those expenses. A good example would be the treehouse villas at SSR. Those are an expansion to the current resort but Disney (Disney Vacation Development, to be specific) is responsible for the costs incurred.

New features aren't added to resorts often. One that comes to mind was the pool slide at OKW back in 2004/05. Disney probably could have charged members for that (to the tune of a few pennies per point spread out over all OKW owners), but instead they reportedly paid for it themselves.

It's certainly possible that abnormally high expenses will occur over the course of ownership, but it's virtually impossible to predict at this time. I believe Hilton Head owners got hit with some expenses for a project that wasn't budgeted. IIRC, DVC is allowing members to pay-off the cost of the project over a period of 5 years. But the dues had a bump of 10-11% one year as a result.

The Vero resort is another one that came close to having a special assessment due to hurricane damage a few years back. That will continue to be a risk since it's an Atlantic beachfront resort.

 

[Carolc]

This is all great info... Thanks so much! I am going nuts trying to decide where to buy a resale. My heart is in one place (BWV), but it is competing with my frugal, analytical nature (which says buy at SSR or OKW).

 

[DebbieB]

I think there may be 2 pools.

Is the current Contemporary pool listed as part of the timeshare? For example, at BCV, Stormalong Bay access is listed in the POS. I thought BLT had their own exclusive pool. Will BLT guests have access to the Contemporary pool? If not, then it's not part of dues.

 

[Buckeye Fan]

This is all great info... Thanks so much! I am going nuts trying to decide where to buy a resale. My heart is in one place (BWV), but it is competing with my frugal, analytical nature (which says buy at SSR or OKW).

If you will be disappointed if you can't stay at BWV most of the time, buy where you want to stay. If you liked resort hopping like we do, I'd say go for the best deal, longest contract term, with the lowest MFs. At the end of the day, you won't enjoy your membership if you can't get what you want out of it.

Lastly, if you assume that the MF spread stays the same (on average) until expiration, using 2008 MFs, you'll pay an additional $166 per year on 200 points ($4.21 versus $5.04 * 200 points), or $5,478 over the life of the contract (33 years - when BWV expires). Is it worth $166 a year to you to stay at BWV? I have to laugh, because we've done both (bought cheapest/longest contract term because we don't care - SSR at WDW, AND bought THE MOST expensive - VB because we wanted to stay there and have the 8 - 11 month booking window). So...I'm not much help!

Best of luck deciding.

 

[Carolc]

If you will be disappointed if you can't stay at BWV most of the time, buy where you want to stay. If you liked resort hopping like we do, I'd say go for the best deal, longest contract term, with the lowest MFs. At the end of the day, you won't enjoy your membership if you can't get what you want out of it.

Lastly, if you assume that the MF spread stays the same (on average) until expiration, using 2008 MFs, you'll pay an additional $166 per year on 200 points ($4.21 versus $5.04 * 200 points), or $5,478 over the life of the contract (33 years - when BWV expires). Is it worth $166 a year to you to stay at BWV? I have to laugh, because we've done both (bought cheapest/longest contract term because we don't care - SSR at WDW, AND bought THE MOST expensive - VB because we wanted to stay there and have the 8 - 11 month booking window). So...I'm not much help!

Best of luck deciding.

Hi Buckeye - Thanks for answering my question on the planning board as well. Sounds like you and I share a few things in common. Did you drive yourself nuts when you were trying to decide where to buy?

I think the difference in price over the life of the contract is even more than $5478 though (said as I sit here will multiple tabs of Excel open - I really need to step away from the computer )... I know we can't predict how the individual mf's will fluctuate, but if we just estimate a 3% average annual increase across the board, the gap between the mf's will widen. I noticed that you were using 2008 numbers, and 2009 numbers are already at a $176 difference between SSR and BWV for a 200 pt contract. So, assuming I set up the formulas on my spreadsheet correctly, the cumulative difference between BWV and SSR could be around $10k (for the period 2009 to 2042) for those 200 points.

Anyway, I'm glad that you have been happy with SSR (and VB)... At the moment I am leaning toward SSR or OKW, as I think that is all I can afford in the long run. Now which one??

Thanks again,
Carol

 

[Buckeye Fan]

Hi Buckeye - Thanks for answering my question on the planning board as well. Sounds like you and I share a few things in common. Did you drive yourself nuts when you were trying to decide where to buy?

I think the difference in price over the life of the contract is even more than $5478 though (said as I sit here will multiple tabs of Excel open - I really need to step away from the computer )... I know we can't predict how the individual mf's will fluctuate, but if we just estimate a 3% average annual increase across the board, the gap between the mf's will widen. I noticed that you were using 2008 numbers, and 2009 numbers are already at a $176 difference between SSR and BWV for a 200 pt contract. So, assuming I set up the formulas on my spreadsheet correctly, the cumulative difference between BWV and SSR could be around $10k (for the period 2009 to 2042) for those 200 points.

Anyway, I'm glad that you have been happy with SSR (and VB)... At the moment I am leaning toward SSR or OKW, as I think that is all I can afford in the long run. Now which one??

Thanks again,
Carol

You know, what it came down to for us was contract length. At the time, OKW was not offering extensions, and AKV wasn't selling yet. The only thing selling with an expiration date greater than 2042 was SSR, so that made our decision easy. If I had all of the choices that are available now, I'm not sure what I would have purchased, even though I'm very happy with SSR. I would have had a hard time deciding between AKV and SSR, only because DH can take or leave OKW. It's still one of my favorites.

As for MFs, yes, I did use 2008, because I knew them off of the top of my head. How sad is that??? I was looking at the fee history for all resorts. When HHI and BWV opened, BWV was .54 cents higher than HHI on MFs. In 1999, BWV was .84 cents higher. Today, BWV is .12 cents cheaper. For any of the resorts, there will be times when fees go up more than normal, times when they go up a small amount, and times when they stay the same or even decrease. If you compare OKW and BWV from 1996 to 2009 (when BWV opened), OKW has actually gone up a good bit more ($1.74 per point as opposed to $1.51 per point since '96). This makes sense, considering that BWV was new, and OKW was probably starting to need both soft refurbs and repairs.

In the end, your guess is as good as mine as to how this will all play out. I think you're doing the right thing asking questions, and making an informed decision. Since I can't predict, and knowing what I know now, the two questions I would ask myself are the following:
* Can I book 8 - 12 months out?
* Do I want to stay at the same resort most stays?

If you answer to yes for both, buy at the resort that has captured your heart. I don't think you'll be happy otherwise. If you answer no to either, then go for the best deal based on what is important to you (longer contracts and/or cheaper buy-in price/MFs).

Definitely step away. Breaking out the spreadsheets is dangerous (even though I did it, too!).

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

At the moment I am leaning toward SSR or OKW, as I think that is all I can afford in the long run. Now which one??

Thanks again,
Carol

Our only regret of buying at BWV was the totally awesome point charts for the GVs at OKW. I doubt that I'll ever need a GV, but if I did...OKW would have been the way to go! Of course the decor at SSR is awesome too!

As far as long term costs, remember that in the long run your income will certainly increase as well. Inflation is a fact of life. However, that is one reason that I stick with my little 100 pt. contract. I personally wouldn't let the MFs in 2042 bother me too much. If you are doing the math, you will need to discount the yearly increases by the annual inflation rate. The best way to think of it is that the MFs of 2008 in 2008 dollars would be very similar to 2042 MFs in 2042 dollars. (OK, that was confusing.) At most, I would reduce the 3%/year to more like 1% to reflect that you will have more money in the future as well.

Think of it this way: In 1970, a new Cadillac cost <$5,000. However, $20k in income was the same as $75k today. Most people would have been shocked to learn that a new Caddy would cost $40k+ in 2008, and would have said...how will they ever be able to sell it? (OK, but that's a different question.)

So, BwV dues will probably be over $17/pt. in 2042...I'm not that worried about it.

Of course, I could have put that money in the market...but right now I think I'm getting more mileage out of my DVC than my 401k. Also remember, even though timeshares have NOT traditionally kept its value, but DVC has stayed in the ball park for MOST resorts, and will likely go up at least a little in the future as we climb out of this real estate mess.

 

[crisi]

If you are frugal, OKW will be by far your best bet. However, you should know if you like BWV and those Standard View rooms are calling to you, your chances of getting them with any regularity as a non-BWV owner are slim. Standard View points are a great compromise for the frugal. Yes, you will pay more per point in dues than OKW, and yes you'll pay a little more per night than OKW.

But if you buy OKW and think "I'll stay in the BW and get those Standard View rooms" - that isn't going to happen very often. Oh, it will certainly happen sometimes, but more often you'll need to use preferred view point counts to stay there.

IMHO, there are two advantages to being a BWV owner (I am one) and one disadvantage. The disadvantage is the higher fees. The two advantages is first dibs on Standard View rooms and first dibs on Boardwalk View rooms (also often not available seven months out). Because if you get your act together and call right at seven months, the preferred rooms are - more often than not - going to be available to you.

 

[Tink-n-Belle]

This is all great info... Thanks so much! I am going nuts trying to decide where to buy a resale. My heart is in one place (BWV), but it is competing with my frugal, analytical nature (which says buy at SSR or OKW).

I was where you are when we decided to purchase. I'm frugal too, but sometimes you need to be dollar wise instead of penny foolish. OKW & SSR are definitely cheaper, but can you walk to 2 parks from there?

Can you look out over cresent lake at the beautiful YC/BC resort at night when the lights are glistening and reflecting off the lake from your Boardwalk view balcony?

Can you wake up to SpaceShip earth and go to bed watching illuminations from your balcony?

Can you return from a great day at the park and enjoy the boardwalk entertainers at OKW & SSR?

Can you book rooms that will cost less points one year because you over did it last year?

SSR was selling when we bought but it didn't stir my heart. When my guide mentioned BW it kicked my wallet into action. We bought the BW site unseen. The 1st time we were there was about 2:00PM and we went out onto the boardwalk and I sat down on the benches taking in the whole view and the atmosphere and KNEW I made the right decision. The money I would of saved with SSR doesn't even enter into the equation anymore. You cannot put a price on walking back from Epcot after a day in the park and being home in 5 minutes and not having to deal with the crowded busses. Or just returning back the boardwalk to the fun and excitement happening on the boardwalk at night with the entertainers and knowing that the magic is still happening even though the parks are closed.

Its the difference between a lake view house and one that is located 2 miles inland.

Buy the boardwalk if you heart is there!!! You won't regret it!!

GOOD LUCK!!!!

 

[Tink-n-Belle]

Of course, I could have put that money in the market...but right now I think I'm getting more mileage out of my DVC than my 401k.

Isn't that the truth!!! That's why I just bought 160 points at the BLT. At least the market can't take that part of my life away!!!

 

[BWV Dreamin]

I was where you are when we decided to purchase. I'm frugal too, but sometimes you need to be dollar wise instead of penny foolish. OKW & SSR are definitely cheaper, but can you walk to 2 parks from there?

Can you look out over cresent lake at the beautiful YC/BC resort at night when the lights are glistening and reflecting off the lake from your Boardwalk view balcony?

Can you wake up to SpaceShip earth and go to bed watching illuminations from your balcony?

Can you return from a great day at the park and enjoy the boardwalk entertainers at OKW & SSR?

Can you book rooms that will cost less points one year because you over did it last year?

SSR was selling when we bought but it didn't stir my heart. When my guide mentioned BW it kicked my wallet into action. We bought the BW site unseen. The 1st time we were there was about 2:00PM and we went out onto the boardwalk and I sat down on the benches taking in the whole view and the atmosphere and KNEW I made the right decision. The money I would of saved with SSR doesn't even enter into the equation anymore. You cannot put a price on walking back from Epcot after a day in the park and being home in 5 minutes and not having to deal with the crowded busses. Or just returning back the boardwalk to the fun and excitement happening on the boardwalk at night with the entertainers and knowing that the magic is still happening even though the parks are closed.

Its the difference between a lake view house and one that is located 2 miles inland.

Buy the boardwalk if you heart is there!!! You won't regret it!!

GOOD LUCK!!!!

You said it all!!!!........Growing up in the mid-atlantic area (Annapolis,MD) and vacationing on the beach (OC, MD) we knew immediately the BWV's was the place we wanted to purchase. Love it, love it.....the views are spectacular, just can't pry the hubby away to try other DVC resorts!! The MF's never was a factor...we did purchase resale which saved us a ton of money. Please go with your heart...it is a huge investment and it will make it much easier to pay for when you are in love with it!!

 

[Carolc]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input... I do appreciate it!

Tink-n-Belle - your words create a lot of imagery... are you a writer?
Do you have any photos from your BWV balcony?

 

[JodyTG]

The indoor LOOOOOOOONG hallways have lots of carpet to vacuum and replace.
Lots of walls to paint. Lots more doors to keep up....and those hallways are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD! As a BWV MF payer- I would appreciate it in so many ways if they would please turn the A/C down just a little bit....my wife's teeth were chattering as we waited for elevators -and it was AUGUST!

We just spent the week of Christmas in a 1-bedroom boardwalk view at BWV and there was a lot of work needed in the villa...and I do mean A LOT! From the cracked tile in the shower to the washer/dryer not working properly, the room was basically a wreck. Front desk thanked us for telling them, but said that there was nothing they could do at that time. We also called our guide and was given the # for Member Satisfaction, but never got a returned phone call.

We're considering selling our 110 BWV points because, with the extremely high dues we pay, the rooms are not being kept up to standards.

 

[CarolMN]

We just spent the week of Christmas in a 1-bedroom boardwalk view at BWV and there was a lot of work needed in the villa...and I do mean A LOT! From the cracked tile in the shower to the washer/dryer not working properly, the room was basically a wreck. Front desk thanked us for telling them, but said that there was nothing they could do at that time. We also called our guide and was given the # for Member Satisfaction, but never got a returned phone call.

We're considering selling our 110 BWV points because, with the extremely high dues we pay, the rooms are not being kept up to standards.

When we stayed in a Boardwalk view 2 bedroom room a few years ago, I also noticed that the unit was quite worn - much more so than the standard view rooms we usually booked. Much more wear than the PV - Pool/Garden view room we had early last year.

Since the standard view rooms seem to be just as (if not more) popular than the BW view rooms, I can only conclude that the BW view rooms get a lot more "wear" for some reason.

Anyway, we probably won't be booking a BW view room again. Maybe after the next rehab.