When Were Fastpasses Introduced and What was the Reaction?

[disney junky]

I read a lot of threads by people who hate FP+. It got me thinking. Who remembers the history of Fastpasses?

 

[Dan Murphy]

A good rundown here.......

http://allears.net/tp/fastpass.htm


1999

 

[Brian Noble]

Who remembers the history of Fastpasses?

There were (and still are) a lot of people who were unhappy that FP increased standby waits. What you see happening at e.g. Pirates and Mansion now happened with all the "old" FP attractions when it was first deployed: standby waits went from okay-that's-a-little-long to you-have-to-be-kidding-me.

There was also a lot of confusion, particularly at first, about how the system worked on the part of guests. Especially in the early days, lots of people had no idea how to use them, and thought that you had to pay extra, etc. I still sometimes heard that, even as recently as a few years ago.

The stated motivation for FP was to get people out of lines and in the restaurants and shops spending money. But, if you look at the in-park per-capita revenue of the first few years after FP was introduced, you'll notice that there were no unusual jumps compared to other theme park operators. Instead of getting an extra snack or buying an extra souvenir, people holding a Fastpass for something just got in some other line. So, lots of goodwill, but very little actual revenue.

And the system is not free. You needed (at least) two extra cast members at every attraction to check return times and to handle the merge point, plus the cost of operating and maintaining the infrastructure and the space to house the kiosks, etc.

Indeed, some other operators tried "free" versions of virtual queueing---Universal and Cedar Fair both experimented with it for a while to see if they could make it work. But, both got rid of their "free" versions and now only offer expedited access to attractions if you pay extra for it above and beyond simple admission. Likewise, other theme park operators (notably Six Flags and Herschend) that originally deployed "paid" versions have only expanded it over time.

It's been a mystery to many why Disney took so long to try to monetize FP, but FP+ has done so, if indirectly. I've written about that in another thread http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=52816235&postcount=129.

 

[bookgirl]

I wasn't around to see the implementation of Legacy FP, but I remember when they started enforcing the FP window a few years ago. Oh my God! The caterwauling and the cries of how it was going to completely ruin the way their family toured, and it wasn't worth it to come back, and Disney was so stupid and....yada yada yada.


I liked the old system and I like the new system (in some ways more) but the fact is that on my first trip I was a little under informed and didn't even know what fastpass was. I can't even imagine now.

 

[DVCcurious]

There were (and still are) a lot of people who were unhappy that FP increased standby waits.

That would be me.

In my day there were no fast passes. If you wanted to ride with a low wait you showed up at open or you stayed until close.

But the biggest difference was the lines themselves. The longest lines you saw were about an hour (the mountains). There were no 90 minute lines unless it was a 9 or 10 crowd day. And those lines MOVED. I mean you were continually walking forward.

With FP the lines all got longer and you stood a lot while waiting in line. Give me a medium line that's constantly moving vs a long line that's standing still any day.

FP+ or FP- doesn't matter. They both blow.

 

[PeterPanic]

I went there for years before FP ever existed. From the very beginning I felt that I could see what the problem was going to be. And it is complicated because, for some reason, so many people do not seem to get it or it's restrictions.

It was an easy transition in the sense that it was easy to understand how it worked and in the beginning the windows were solidly enforced. At the time, they only gave out about 30% of any attractions capacity in FP's. Assuming that the Attractions take care of pretty close to 100% of it's capacity every day, that meant that 70% of those that rode it were forced to go to standby. For the first time in all the years I had been going, there was actual anger in the lines. Yes, we used to joke and whine about how long the lines were before, but, it was always good natured and with the realization that it was just to be expected at Disney. It wasn't all that bad anyway. You got in lines but those lines were always moving and when you got to the front of that line... you were going to be next. No crowd of people were all of a sudden going to show up right along side of you and get to go ahead of you.

Over time, people figured out that if they said that they got held up at a restaurant or a ride breakdown, the CM were instructed to let them use their FP's late. Over time it was just easier to let everyone go through as long as they had a valid FP in their hands even though it might be hours after the time it was listed for. It went completely out of control. People were hording FP's and using them later in the day. For every FP they took someone else was not going to be able to get one. But the horses were out of the barn and they either didn't know how to get them back in or they just didn't want the hassle of even trying. That made the FP experts happy and the ones that might be unfamiliar with it or prone to follow the rules frustrated and angry. After all those years previous to the introduction of FP I had never heard or seen any anger in the lines. We all were equal, first come first served. After, it wasn't pretty at all.

When Disney decided to go to the FP+ system they absolutely needed to get back in control because it was vital to the FP+ system that they could control the crowd levels at any given time that were using the FP line. That, as someone stated, was a veritable firestorm of anger from everyone, except those that had been on the other end of it. They felt somewhat vindicated and supported.

Then came FP+ which not only require the attempted reservations of FP's for the day (at the time 3 per day), but leveled the playing field and allow others to be eligible to also have a FP available to them. It made repeated trips to the same ride more difficult therefore allowing others the opportunity to experience it as well as those the played the system as it had been. It limited the number of FP's available to each person per day also opening up the chance for others to get one. It's not the best system, because, I firmly believe that the original no FP system was the best and the fairest. I never had to skip a ride ever because the line wasn't manageable. One might have been longer then the other, but it was all within reason.

I don't think we will ever see that happen again. Disney created that 900 pound Gorilla in the living room and it looks like he will be staying there for the foreseeable future with little chance of being thrown out.

 

[disney junky]

I went there for years before FP ever existed. From the very beginning I felt that I could see what the problem was going to be. And it is complicated because, for some reason, so many people do not seem to get it or it's restrictions.

It was an easy transition in the sense that it was easy to understand how it worked and in the beginning the windows were solidly enforced. At the time, they only gave out about 30% of any attractions capacity in FP's. Assuming that the Attractions take care of pretty close to 100% of it's capacity every day, that meant that 70% of those that rode it were forced to go to standby. For the first time in all the years I had been going, there was actual anger in the lines. Yes, we used to joke and whine about how long the lines were before, but, it was always good natured and with the realization that it was just to be expected at Disney. It wasn't all that bad anyway. You got in lines but those lines were always moving and when you got to the front of that line... you were going to be next. No crowd of people were all of a sudden going to show up right along side of you and get to go ahead of you.

Over time, people figured out that if they said that they got held up at a restaurant or a ride breakdown, the CM were instructed to let them use their FP's late. Over time it was just easier to let everyone go through as long as they had a valid FP in their hands even though it might be hours after the time it was listed for. It went completely out of control. People were hording FP's and using them later in the day. For every FP they took someone else was not going to be able to get one. But the horses were out of the barn and they either didn't know how to get them back in or they just didn't want the hassle of even trying. That made the FP experts happy and the ones that might be unfamiliar with it or prone to follow the rules frustrated and angry. After all those years previous to the introduction of FP I had never heard or seen any anger in the lines. We all were equal, first come first served. After, it wasn't pretty at all.

When Disney decided to go to the FP+ system they absolutely needed to get back in control because it was vital to the FP+ system that they could control the crowd levels at any given time that were using the FP line. That, as someone stated, was a veritable firestorm of anger from everyone, except those that had been on the other end of it. They felt somewhat vindicated and supported.

Then came FP+ which not only require the attempted reservations of FP's for the day (at the time 3 per day), but leveled the playing field and allow others to be eligible to also have a FP available to them. It made repeated trips to the same ride more difficult therefore allowing others the opportunity to experience it as well as those the played the system as it had been. It limited the number of FP's available to each person per day also opening up the chance for others to get one. It's not the best system, because, I firmly believe that the original no FP system was the best and the fairest. I never had to skip a ride ever because the line wasn't manageable. One might have been longer then the other, but it was all within reason.

I don't think we will ever see that happen again. Disney created that 900 pound Gorilla in the living room and it looks like he will be staying there for the foreseeable future with little chance of being thrown out.

Could some of that be attributed to the growth and additional hotel rooms added? Aren't there simply many more people now? We've been regular visitors, every other year or so, but I can't recall specifically when things started to get unbearably crowded. We'd get to a park early, and they often opened early. Word got out, and they stopped that. I remember we'd knock out most of the more popular rides by noon, and often we'd head back to the hotel for the afternoon. It also seems as though we spend a lot more time in transit. And we hardly ever stayed on monorail resorts...usually Dixie Landings (it's still Dixie Landings to me--before we bought at BWV).

 

[Jennasis]

I remember our first foray into the parks using original recipe FP. I was unsure how it would work but found out by the end of the first day that it was an improvement on our park experience. I remember being in Tomorrowland and my sister wanted to ride Buzz...we insisted on grabbing a FP for it and going on Alien Encounter instead. She was NOT happy. She whinged and moaned the entire time we were on (the very long) line for AE that she wanted to ride BUZZ! I kept trying to explain the concept of FP, and that now we only had to wait on one long line instead of two (it was JULY..hot and crowded). When we got off AE and walked right on Buzz, she finally conceded quite grudgingly that it was a good move.

 

[msmama]

I went to WDW shortly after FPs started. It must have been very shortly after because there were lots of issues. I know the FP line for BTMR was significantly longer than standby. And the FP machine at SM didn't work and the CMs had to push the magic button on the back to hand out FPs.

Personally I never really used more than 3-4 FPs in a day, so I anticipate no real change with fp+. (The biggest thing I'm worried about is crowds since I'm going at a different time of year).

 

[kittyab]

We were in WDW in Nov 2013 and we had the magic band with the fast pass+. We loved it.

 

[PeterPanic]

Could some of that be attributed to the growth and additional hotel rooms added? Aren't there simply many more people now? We've been regular visitors, every other year or so, but I can't recall specifically when things started to get unbearably crowded. We'd get to a park early, and they often opened early. Word got out, and they stopped that. I remember we'd knock out most of the more popular rides by noon, and often we'd head back to the hotel for the afternoon. It also seems as though we spend a lot more time in transit. And we hardly ever stayed on monorail resorts...usually Dixie Landings (it's still Dixie Landings to me--before we bought at BWV).

There is an element of more people coming to WDW then there once was, but, just because Disney has more rooms doesn't necessarily mean that there are more people going. The majority just stayed in hotels off-site. I can remember, in February, when the MK parking lot was completely full and that was before the race track was in there. All that additional people do is make the situation worse. The problem still remained but was proportionally the same depending on the number in the parks at the time. The more people the longer the wait especially in standby when that was introduced because of FP.

Everything I spoke about, I had experienced, but, it is only right to tell you that I was never there in summer, so what happened then will have to be told by someone else. I have been there in January, February, March, April, September, October and Early December. Some times it was packed with people other times it was pleasant, but I never noticed a huge difference in wait time at any of the attractions in the different months that I went there.

That arriving early system still works, but, now it is better because with the ability to choose FP+ times, you can get them for the late morning or afternoon times, get there early with FP's in hand and do the morning run of attractions that you don't have FP's for and use your FP's when the crowds get there. It has worked that way for many years, even before any FP's were there. I can remember though, that at rope drop in the early years, Space Mountain was the big attraction and it was like a sprint race of people running to that first thing in the morning. They'd go to the right at the end of Main Street and I would head to the left and all those other ones, without need for a FP, early on. Did it that way before and after FP was introduced.

 

[Suvadoo]

I loved legacy FP prior to the return time enforcement. I never saved up the FP's but I never felt a need to skip an attraction in order to use my FP. If I returned to the ride 90 minutes later, I was still able to ride it. Also, Legacy was only used on major attractions. I really resent that Disney has made so many rides FP+ for no other reason than to manage crowds.
Perhaps FP+ wouldn't be so abhorrent to me if there was a 2 hour FP+ return time window. I wouldn't feel so much like a rat in a maze. But I agree, getting rid of all FP's would be the best idea. Everyone would enter the line and know the wait time. This would reduce guest frustration and anger.

 

[Airship Ariadne]

I was looking at some yearly historical averages, and of course, the numbers show growth in park attendance...up about 3 million visitors a year compared to 1998 (pre-FP). with about 15 million in 1998 growing to 18 million in 2013.

So yes, there is growth in the park crowds, and clearly FP is going to have some effect on SB lines. I can see how FP+ added to some SB lines by creating FP for rides that never had them before, and pushing people to use three FP when in the past the many park visitors never used the system. But then the easywdw page on it also says that while it increased the times at lesser rides, it reduced the SB times at the bigger ones at MK.

AS for the negative sound to the comments that FP and FP+ is just Disney's way to manage crowds...baffles me...is that supposed to be a bad thing? To me that is a good thing...the BIGGEST complaint you hear about WDW from people is crowds...look at the huge pile of book pages, website links, and apps all about figuring out the best days for lowest crowds, best touring plans to avoid the most crowded parks on specific days, and in general, make the most of your visit regardless of the crowds, and tell me that "managing the crowds" so more visitors get to ride or see the attractions that matter most to them is the sum-of-all-evil?

The constant ludite chant that "they could have built x number of rides for the cost of installing the FP+ and MB system" is eye-rollingly simplistic.

Well, yes, they could have...and if they didn't buy new buses recently, or refurbish several resorts they could build even more. Or in the 90's, if they hadn't changed from the old metal keys for every room to the swipe cards. Or even built any additional resorts beyond the initial three?

But guess what, they are building some new things, some we know of, some we are going to learn of soon I hope. Of course, no matter what they build, there will be a negative-nancy saying it isn't what they wanted.

I liked FP- for our first two trips...I liked FP+ for the third. I really liked knowing that I had FP+ for the top rides that DD, who had grown to like rollercoasters since the last trip wanted to be able to ride, even on days the park was set to be pretty crowded.

FP+ needs a couple of fixes...ability to make 4th on your phone without a wait in a line to talk to a CM, and they need to build more rides in EPCOT and HS to kill the tiering systems there...and maybe expand the window to 1.5 -2 hours instead...and I do think, in the end, Disney should consider making it an AP, DVC, and Resort guest perk, and only available for a fee for offsite guests. That would help manage it, making more options available.

yes there was one FP+ we were frantically trying to get to, after dinner, but the parade and the rude jerks not moving from the steps to the train station (causing us to miss the last train by seconds) made it a mad dash...but it WAS our 4th of the day, and a ride we had already done...so had we missed it, it wouldn't have been the end of the world.

 

[mom2rtk]

So yes, there is growth in the park crowds, and clearly FP is going to have some effect on SB lines. I can see how FP+ added to some SB lines by creating FP for rides that never had them before, and pushing people to use three FP when in the past the many park visitors never used the system. But then the easywdw page on it also says that while it increased the times at lesser rides, it reduced the SB times at the bigger ones at MK.

Yes, SB waits have apparently gone down slightly on the headliners..... for the ONE trip you get through with FP+. When the additional rides I used to take with FP now become standby for repeats, how much has my wait time been reduced?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

My personal reaction was that it was the coolest thing.

My reaction to all the marketing/are regarding it being free was confusion because it seemed to me to be redundant. Only later did I learn that other parks charged and I thought that to be a rip off. We weren't aware of flexibility of the windows. We followed then until we has a conflict and asked a CM who assured us it wasn't a problem. I imagine that from a customer service standpoint that maybe they became flexible because you had little control over times you received and hiccups (existing ADR, ADR taking longer, other ride delays, etc) would easily mess that up.

Someone posted a thread from years ago and it seemed some folks weren't all pleased as punch with it.

We did wonder why certain attractions that could have used them, did not have them.

I had no personal knowledge of anyone not liking it nor did I realize that people didn't know it existed. And honestly, without these boards, my observations would be similar in that I would have no idea that folks didn't like it.

 

[Airship Ariadne]

Yes, SB waits have apparently gone down slightly on the headliners..... for the ONE trip you get through with FP+. When the additional rides I used to take with FP now become standby for repeats, how much has my wait time been reduced?

Imagine how many times you could ride the same ride if Disney kicked everyone else out of the park but your family...they are being greedy, money-grubbing, and thoughtless because they refuse to do that for you! Doesn't Disney know who you are? You are a special snowflake...deserving of less line time than the masses just because you used to know how to get that!

Your argument is pure Ayn-Randian selfish entitlement. YOU knew how to work the old system...they changed it so it would benefit a larger number of park guests...and somehow that is wrong of them?

Again, I think had they promoted the FP- as much, we would have not been able to pull multiple times on the headliners...the marketing of FP+, Disney's push to get people to use it, is the key contributor to the lack of available times all day.

 

[mom2rtk]

Imagine how many times you could ride the same ride if Disney kicked everyone else out of the park but your family...they are being greedy, money-grubbing, and thoughtless because they refuse to do that for you! Doesn't Disney know who you are? You are a special snowflake...deserving of less line time than the masses just because you used to know how to get that!

Your argument is pure Ayn-Randian selfish entitlement. YOU knew how to work the old system...they changed it so it would benefit a larger number of park guests...and somehow that is wrong of them?

Again, I think had they promoted the FP- as much, we would have not been able to pull multiple times on the headliners...the marketing of FP+, Disney's push to get people to use it, is the key contributor to the lack of available times all day.

LOL, if that makes you feel better, then go for it.

I only deserved more because I ......... now wait for it....... Surely this is the "selfish entitlement part?.......... I pulled a ticket. And after I used it........ per the rules....... I pulled another.

How does that make me more selfish than someone wanting to sleep in, go do other things, enter the park late and still expect to do the same amount of headliners as someone who got of out bed early and got to the parks when they opened........ after paying for an "all access" ticket?

 

[Airship Ariadne]

LOL, if that makes you feel better, then go for it.

I only deserved more because I ......... now wait for it....... Surely this is the "selfish entitlement part?.......... I pulled a ticket. And after I used it........ per the rules....... I pulled another.

How does that make me more selfish than someone wanting to sleep in, go do other things, enter the park late and still expect to do the same amount of headliners as someone who got of out bed early and got to the parks when they opened........ after paying for an "all access" ticket?

you are still looking at things myopically...pulling the FPs wasn't selfish and i never said it was...your argument that FP+ is bad because it now means you no longer get to do that, and it is making the waits longer for YOU personally, when the waits have reduced for the majority is selfish. Still following? try this FP- isn't selfish...saying FP- should return because it was better for you that not everyone else got to benefit is selfish.

FP+ works for more park guests than FP- did...guest that paid just as much as you did. It is selfish to expect Disney to keep a system that benefits a small number over a system that benefits a greater number just because you were in that smaller group, especially as you say, when the greater number also paid for the same ticket as you did.

 

[larryz]

I can't wait to see what happens when the FP+ breaks down. Literally. Breaks down.

Then we'll see the capacity control versus capacity increase arguments.

 

[mom2rtk]

you are still looking at things myopically...pulling the FPs wasn't selfish and i never said it was...your argument that FP+ is bad because it now means you no longer get to do that, and it is making the waits longer for YOU personally, when the waits have reduced for the majority is selfish. Still following? try this FP- isn't selfish...saying FP- should return because it was better for you that not everyone else got to benefit is selfish.

FP+ works for more park guests than FP- did...guest that paid just as much as you did. It is selfish to expect Disney to keep a system that benefits a small number over a system that benefits a greater number just because you were in that smaller group, especially as you say, when the greater number also paid for the same ticket as you did.

My argument is that whatever is best for the overall customer experience in the parks is the best way for Disney to go.

We don't know yet if that was legacy FP or FP+. For me, legacy was better. For many others, legacy was better. There is no way at all to figure out whether there enough others unhappy with it to affect the bottom line.

There are a lot of people assuming that because it's being used more, or because attendance remains strong, that it's clear FP+ is better. I disagree. It's going to take time for the effects to show.