What should be cut first?

No it is NOT ok for me to insult and that was not my intent. Sometimes things we type don't always come across as intended. I was going on what you were saying about 2 people you have contact with. Also, by what you typed about having to burn the midnight oil, then say you could be wouldn't; is actually saying it. Not saying it all would be more accurate. At least that is how I understood what you typed.

Not all salaried positions are a one type fits all type. The only way at this point I can try to express what I mean is how I would create lessons for my students. Not all students learn the same so I differentiate the curriculum in order to meet each students needs. So, every salaried position has its own "curriculum" per se, thus responibilites are differentiated, thus need to be handled/treated differently.

Sometimes it is so hard to express what one really is thinking or feeling with the typed word.

I agree that sometimes geting our meaning accross is difficult through the typed word. No hard feelings.:)

I agree there is no one size fits all concerning job demands. Even in each position the work load varies depending on the tasks at hand.

But what is it that precludes teachers from being in a salaried position from doing whatever it takes to get the job done?

Why is it acceptable for the Peditrician to answer the phone when a 1st time Mom calls worried because her infant just sneezed, causing them to work on their own time? Why is it expected for the retail store to keep the store open past posted closing time for the parent that needs that Easter outfit for the next day, forcing them to work without extra compensation? Yet a teacher shouldn't bring papers home to grade without compensation? Please help me understand.

dsny1mom
 
I agree that sometimes geting our meaning accross is difficult through the typed word. No hard feelings.:)

I agree there is no one size fits all concerning job demands. Even in each position the work load varies depending on the tasks at hand.

But what is it that precludes teachers from being in a salaried position from doing whatever it takes to get the job done?

Why is it acceptable for the Peditrician to answer the phone when a 1st time Mom calls worried because her infant just sneezed, causing them to work on their own time? Why is it expected for the retail store to keep the store open past posted closing time for the parent that needs that Easter outfit for the next day, forcing them to work without extra compensation? Yet a teacher shouldn't bring papers home to grade without compensation? Please help me understand.

dsny1mom

A teacher makes 40-60K/year, a dr makes 350K/year. A doctor is compensated for the extra hours, a teacher is not.
 
Our elementary schools already get out around 4:30--well one gets out at 4:00 and the other at 4:30. If our district went to a 4 day week we would have to add just about 2 hours/day to the schedule. Our high school would go from 7:30 to 4:30 every day.

4:30 for elementary schools? Holy cow, what time do your elementary schools start? Do your schools have to educate a certain number of hours per school year or is it based on days?

dsny1mom
 
A teacher makes 40-60K/year, a dr makes 350K/year. A doctor is compensated for the extra hours, a teacher is not.

Umm no. That Dr's salary is for his office/hospital time, not for his home time. That Dr, IMHO, answers that call not because they earn a nice salary but because they want to do the best job they can.

If you insist on bringing up salaries then let's talk about the husband of the elementary school teacher that I mentioned early. He's a teacher too. HS Social Studies in a nice suburb. Annual income 110K. Does he earn enough to warrent taking work home in your opinion? Or are teachers at any level of income exempt just because they are teachers?

You see, how much one earns really has nothing to do with it.

dsny1mom
 

4:30 for elementary schools? Holy cow, what time do your elementary schools start? Do your schools have to educate a certain number of hours per school year or is it based on days?

dsny1mom

The high school goes from 7:30-2:30, the middle school goes from 8-3, one elementary school goes from 8:30-3:30, one from 9-4 and the other from 9:30-4:30. Our school district owns their own buses so it is all about bus schedules. We have a 188 student contact days, teachers are required to be in the building for an hour before school and an hour after-so the high school teachers are there from 6:30-3:30, minimum-. Generally most teachers at the high school are there until about 5:00 each day-generally they have study groups, etc after school for kids that need more help-then they get to go home and correct papers and plan out future classes--then add on the ones that coach or supervise various clubs, etc. Our band teachers are generally there from 6:30am until 9:00PM during marching band season and from 6:30-6:00 during jazz band.

They did a survey last year of students, parents and teachers about switching the elementary school times with the middle and high school times because of all the studies on teens not getting enough sleep. Around 80% of the adults wanted the change but over 90% of the students did not so they didn't change the hours.

I think our district could save a lot in busing by combining routes but too many parents don't want the middle school kids and high school kids on the same bus so :confused3.
 
The high school goes from 7:30-2:30, the middle school goes from 8-3, one elementary school goes from 8:30-3:30, one from 9-4 and the other from 9:30-4:30. Our school district owns their own buses so it is all about bus schedules. We have a 188 student contact days, teachers are required to be in the building for an hour before school and an hour after-so the high school teachers are there from 6:30-3:30, minimum-. Generally most teachers at the high school are there until about 5:00 each day-generally they have study groups, etc after school for kids that need more help-then they get to go home and correct papers and plan out future classes--then add on the ones that coach or supervise various clubs, etc. Our band teachers are generally there from 6:30am until 9:00PM during marching band season and from 6:30-6:00 during jazz band.

They did a survey last year of students, parents and teachers about switching the elementary school times with the middle and high school times because of all the studies on teens not getting enough sleep. Around 80% of the adults wanted the change but over 90% of the students did not so they didn't change the hours.

I think our district could save a lot in busing by combining routes but too many parents don't want the middle school kids and high school kids on the same bus so :confused3.

Thank you for answering my question.

It's surprising that the district did what the kids wanted vs what the adults wanted regarding switching start times. If I were a parent in that district I'd seriously be questioning the districts abilty to do what is best for the children!

dsny1mom
 
Thank you for answering my question.

It's surprising that the district did what the kids wanted vs what the adults wanted regarding switching start times. If I were a parent in that district I'd seriously be questioning the districts abilty to do what is best for the children!

dsny1mom

Well, the kids had good reasons for wanting the schedule to stay the same-mainly because they wouldn't have to miss class for sports which was very reasonable. The kids don't have a problem with the schedule and our district has the highest average ACT scores in the country so it doesn't seem to affect them much. They like getting out at 2:30, being done with sports practices by 5:00 at the latest and having the evening to do homework and still get to bed at a reasonable hour. I think it showed great respect for the students that they listened to THEIR wishes and not some study that was done in which none of them participated.
 
Nothing should be cut. Find some other area of government to trim.

Why is the future of our country always at the top of the list for "cuts"?

How about guaranteed pensions for all members of congress, even if they only serve 1 year? Let's get rid of that nice little benefit, instead.
I agree that Congress is a better place to cut. I understand completely that this is not realistic, but schools are NOT the place to cut.
I agree that some money should be cut from sports and those sort of after school extra activities.
Aside from coaches' salaries, high school sports are pretty much self-supporting. A "big coach" position -- like head football coach -- makes less than $2000 per season. Smaller sports pay their coaches almost nothing. Well, actually football and basketball carry smaller sports like softball and cross-country, but cutting the budget for sports wouldn't do much for the school's bottom line.

Also, most after-school activities cost next to nothing. Teachers aren't paid for their after-school work.
Why does there need to be a superintendent, two assistants superintendents, a principal in every building with at least one assistant principal (often two?) If a married couple teach in the same district, only one should be eligible for benefits (family plan) and the other should NOT receive financial remuneration for the benefits.
I can't comment on what the superintendents do, but at the high school level those principals and assistants are busy all day long. We could not do without them.

You cannot legally cut someone's benefits because they happen to be married to another teacher. Would you be willing to have your salary cut just because your spouse worked for the same employer? That's about as possible as saying that we'll cut the female teachers' salaries while leaving the male teachers' salaries intact. Those are earned benefits, and the school system'd be in court in a heartbeat.
How about addressing the sacred cow of government pension/retirement plans? Obviously this is an issue that extends beyond the field of education, but the educators' union in particular has worked some VERY sweet deals in my state.
Pensions in my state are good but not wonderful.

Cut those, and you'll see your best teachers leave the profession. I know I'm not speaking only for myself when I say that I love my job, and I don't want any other job -- but I wouldn't do it JUST for the paycheck. If not for the benefits, I'd leave and do something else. We need to recruit the best and the brightest to become teachers; Cutting salary and benefits will never do that.
Unfortunately people are sadly ignorant about what really goes on in schools. I suggest for all those that think schools are such a waste of money go spend a week shadowing a teacher and find out what REALLY goes on during a typical school day and all the BS teachers put up with and THEN come back here and tell us how easy their job is and how overpaid they are.
Exactly. People think they know how schools work, but most people really don't.
I do have a suggestion for cutting costs in schools. Get rid of the teachers unions accross the country. It will save money for everyone, teachers included, and then teachers, like the rest of the American workers, not protected by unions, will be promoted, given raises, or terminated based on their preformance
Teachers in most areas are not covered by unions -- not real unions that you're describing. Many people do have litigation-coverage through NEA, but that doesn't mean that we're covered by union contracts, pay dues, etc.
12. Do away with or downsize bus service and charge for students who choose to go to schools out of their zone. (See above order) Our system pays $48,000 per bus route, some of which only carry ONE student. Some of them carry less than five students.
I'm surprised that it took this long to get to busses. Bus service costs a fortune. I've heard two ideas kicked around:
1. Stop driving down into neighborhoods; instead, stop on the main road and kids will have to walk blocks and blocks to get to their houses. Parents of young children do not like this option.
2. Reduce to a four-day school week. Lengthen each day so that kids are still in school for the same amout of time. Again, parents of young children do not like this option.
Sorry, but the work ethic in the south is well known and not for the good.
Yeah, all we do down here is sit on old sofas on the front porch watching NASCAR and drinking beer. How insulting. If we're all so lazy down here, how come so many big companies are moving down here? Since when is MO southern?
But when you look at what they actually earn for the hours they actually work in the classroom that grossly underpaid facade fades quickly. Most teachers are off cummatively 23 weeks a year. There is nothing stopping them from gaining additional employment, to boost their income, during those 165 that they are not teaching.
First, it's deceptive to count only hours that teachers are in front of their classes. You're assuming that teachers should prepare lessons, grade papers, contact parents, keep records, and do all the other tasks that don't really "show" on their own time.

Your 23 weeks off work is deceptive too; weekends are what's throwing you off. Let's compare me (I'm a teacher) and my husband (he's an engineer):

He has two weeks vacation and ten paid holidays; thus, he works 240 days a year. Pretty typical for a professional person.
I work 200 days a year and everything else is unpaid time off. So I work 40 fewer days than he does. Less? Absolutely (but I also earn about 40% of his salary). But 40 days less is eight work weeks less, not 23 weeks off.

Incidentally, just about every young, straight-out-of-college teacher with whom I work DOES have a second job.
 
With average graduating classes of about 150, our school district has a superintendent, an assistant superintendent, a business manager, an accountant, 5 principals, and endless administrative assistants. The athletic director and "important" sport coaches make a bundle, and teachers make plenty, along with having the best benefits around. There is fat to be cut, and I'm sick and tired of teachers' salaries and special education being sacred cows. When the taxpayers of your district are broke and losing their houses to foreclosure, it's time for everyone to make sacrifices.
 
The coaches in our district are paid on years of experience and level of coaching so the head football coach with 10 years of experience makes the same as the head Cross Country coach with 10 years of experience. The football team has a staff of many, the cross country coach coaches the boys and girls teams 9-12 with one assistant. :lmao: They have about the same number of kids out for the teams (boys/girls combined in cross country). The coaches top out at $5000/sport-which seems like a "bundle" to some until you figure out the per hour wage of about 83 cents/hour and it really isn't that much.
 
I know I'm jumping on this wagon late...but here's my two cents, for what it's worth.

One of the ways high schools in our district can cut costs is by trimming the sports schedules. My daughter plays varsity softball and I love watching her, but I really don't feel the need for her to play 25 or so games in a season. I would be perfectly happy with our in conference games. I really don't NEED to have every night of the week occupied. Not to mention this would save them on busing costs for the away games.
 
I can tell you that the exact opposite has occurred around here, and this is area is in better shape economically than most other areas in the country right now. There's been a FLOOD of students move from private to public schools in the last year or so and it looks like that trend is continuing in school enrollment numbers for next year. There is a twofold reason for the big shift of students from private to public; many many people around here can no longer afford to send their kids to private schools (job loss and pay cuts abound) AND many private schools are closing because they are no longer financially solvent. Friends in other areas of the country tell me the same phenomena is happened in their area so I tend to think movement out of private schools is not isolated to just our area.

More students + lower budget is the end result.

Yes, that's what is happening here too at the moment but I think it is short lived. It seems as though everyone who lost $ in 401K's, property and other investments has pulled their kids out of private and dropped them in public. Right now the parents do not see a benefit to doing without for their kids' education and right now the losses in the schools haven't been to steep. Most schools have been able to manage this past year without any substantial changes. But, give it another year or so. I don't think the municipalities will be able to maintain all the social services and education programs much longer, something will have to give and I suspect it will be the schools. Once the kids educations begin to suffer, and class sizes become unmanageable the parents who can afford to switch will undoubtedly do so. That's why I said it will get worse before it gets better. People/parents will be slow to act because they won't see the differences right away.
 
In Georgia we have this "lovely" tax free holiday each year. When it was clear that deep cuts were coming, the Governor was quick to say he would "save" that tax-free weekend. Well...as a teacher I have had 6 days cut from my salary this year already. My husband, who also works for the county system, has had 6 cut as well. We have been told this is not the last of it. 12 days of salary for 1 family is no joke folks. The cut us deep. Now...the Governor is doing everything he can to save his precious tax free holiday. Let's think about this: sales tax...the average family that takes advantage of this event is saving about $10-15 in taxes. I have heard folks getting upset about this, but so many people don't care if my salary keeps getting cut. Even if the sales tax will not cover the salary cuts, I think it is time to let it go!
 
I know I'm jumping on this wagon late...but here's my two cents, for what it's worth.

One of the ways high schools in our district can cut costs is by trimming the sports schedules. My daughter plays varsity softball and I love watching her, but I really don't feel the need for her to play 25 or so games in a season. I would be perfectly happy with our in conference games. I really don't NEED to have every night of the week occupied. Not to mention this would save them on busing costs for the away games.

Our athletic conference reorganized to save on busing for all the schools involved. 25 games is a LOT. Our spring sports season is so short because of weather that kids end up having a lot of contests each week to get the games/tournaments in. Our state limits contests to 20/season, not including playoffs for state tournaments. Some of the schools have the kids drive themselves to contests--I do NOT like that at all. We have to get the kids to the golf course each day and they get themselves to home meets (just like the would for practice) and even that bothers me but it would cost $1800/season to run a bus TO the course every day so they don't do that.
 
Cuts I'd like to see are more streamlining....

For example, all teachers' supplies are ordered through approved cataloges. Top price for everything. I would rather see the district contract with a Walmart or Staples to order supplies. I can't imagine that the cost would be anything near the catalog suppliers.

Pay to play on a high school level. Unfortunately, that will render many students ineligible for high school sports. And while I disagree with that wholeheartedly, cuts have to come from somewhere. Many booster organizations raise money to fund trips for teams in this area. I imagine they might be able to subsidize students whose parents cannot afford pay to play.

Bussing seems to be a hot button topic. It costs a small fortune to bus. Our district has neighborhood grammar schools; yet we have a ton of buses. I would like to see a redistricting done to eliminate bussing wherever possible.

I wish people would stop talking about time verses money as far as teachers' salaries are concerned. Good teachers put in far more time than their prescribed hours just as good employees in other fields do. The true value of any employee is the extra mile he/she goes behind the scenes.

Kids and teachers are tired by the end of the day. I can't imagine extending the school day.
 
Cuts I'd like to see are more streamlining....

For example, all teachers' supplies are ordered through approved cataloges. Top price for everything. I would rather see the district contract with a Walmart or Staples to order supplies. I can't imagine that the cost would be anything near the catalog suppliers.

Pay to play on a high school level. Unfortunately, that will render many students ineligible for high school sports. And while I disagree with that wholeheartedly, cuts have to come from somewhere. Many booster organizations raise money to fund trips for teams in this area. I imagine they might be able to subsidize students whose parents cannot afford pay to play.

Bussing seems to be a hot button topic. It costs a small fortune to bus. Our district has neighborhood grammar schools; yet we have a ton of buses. I would like to see a redistricting done to eliminate bussing wherever possible.

I wish people would stop talking about time verses money as far as teachers' salaries are concerned. Good teachers put in far more time than their prescribed hours just as good employees in other fields do. The true value of any employee is the extra mile he/she goes behind the scenes.

Kids and teachers are tired by the end of the day. I can't imagine extending the school day.

Districts often get special pricing through those catalogs so don't assume they are paying top price for anything. I know in our kids' old Catholic school the prices they got were significantly less then the list price and they don't pay tax on them.

I am really surprised buy how many schools don't charge a fee for athletic/activity participation. Most schools in our state have been doing this for YEARS. I remember we paid $35/sport way back when I was in high school.
 
We've cut out janitorial and replaced with outside services. After this year, our district is eliminating librarians and elementary counselors. So now the teachers also have to check out books if there's no volunteers to help in that capacity.

Our district is looking for additional cuts and they are looking at bussing. I really don't think they need to come into the neighborhoods for the secondary students. Possibly make one bus stop inside neighborhoods to help save gas for the elementary students. Our middle school and high school students are on the same bus schedule.

They are also looking at opening 38 school of choice slots to get more money.

I'm so proud of our teachers who voted for a pay cut to save 4 teaching jobs. One was my daughters teacher and we're fortunate to have her. It brought tears to my eyes that they all sacraficed to save jobs.
 
Cuts I'd like to see are more streamlining....

For example, all teachers' supplies are ordered through approved cataloges. Top price for everything. I would rather see the district contract with a Walmart or Staples to order supplies. I can't imagine that the cost would be anything near the catalog suppliers.

Some districts are already doing this. Here each school is allotted different amounts of money depending on the size of the school. The person who orders the supplies for that school has to make sure the money is spent wisely. Yes there are the approved catalgoes, but if Staples has it cheaper, the purchaser is allowed to order from Staples. The person who was in charge of this at the last school I worked for, saved our school loads of money. For once we didn't run out of paper by the end of the school year and teachers didn't have to go buy their own.
 
In Georgia we have this "lovely" tax free holiday each year. When it was clear that deep cuts were coming, the Governor was quick to say he would "save" that tax-free weekend. Well...as a teacher I have had 6 days cut from my salary this year already. My husband, who also works for the county system, has had 6 cut as well. We have been told this is not the last of it. 12 days of salary for 1 family is no joke folks. The cut us deep. Now...the Governor is doing everything he can to save his precious tax free holiday. Let's think about this: sales tax...the average family that takes advantage of this event is saving about $10-15 in taxes. I have heard folks getting upset about this, but so many people don't care if my salary keeps getting cut. Even if the sales tax will not cover the salary cuts, I think it is time to let it go!

I am so sorry you had to experience that. When I hear stories like this it really makes me feel as though since I'm a teacher I'm a peasant.
 
I was using the 7 hours a day teachers are in their building to calculate their hourly wage, not just student time. Students are in the building 5 of those 7 hours. That gives teachers at the school I am talking about 10 hours a week for tasks other than actual instruction. So any time needed beyond that would end be "homework" so to speak. So no I don't think all of the non instructional work should be done on their own time.

I see what you mean about how my calculations were off regarding the non working days. However the teachers in this area are off most of June, all of July and 2-3 weeks in Aug. Then they are off one week for spring break and two weeks for winter break. That gives them more like 13 full weeks off plus weekends during their teaching weeks. Not 8.

How many jobs pay $32 an hour to start and offer 13 weeks off a year with no weekends and only a handfull of days where they are at their place of employment past 4PM? Then when you look at the excelent pensions they receive...... it just amazes me that the idea of doing some of their paper grading and other tasks during their off hours is so off putting.

I know you said you are not represented by a union. Here is Il the teachers union is the strongest union in the state. Stronger than the teamsters.

dsny1mom
 







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