What should be cut first?

[golfgal]

Here's a short list from personal experience, or folks I've had this conversation with recently:

Accountant
Comptroller
City manager
Department store scheduler
Editor
Production manager
Pediatrician
Retail store manager

I'm sure other folks could add more.

Just last week we went out with 2 other couples. Of the 6 people at dinner, 3had to take work calls at some point during the evening (the teacher was not one of them) Lots of folks are being stretched thin and having additional reponsibilities added, with no additional compensation, right now.

I absolutely think teachers perform an important job, and they should be fairly compensated, but the taking work home arguement that invariably gets thrown out when talking about teacher pay makes me crazy!

Ok, an accountant is only busy from January to April 15 so they get paid a high salary to work 3 1/2 months/year, same with the comptroller. The city manager is only busy during budget times, give me a break, a department store scheduler-like they have to do anything but sit around and put numbers in a computer, editor--they only have a couple days of work/year when their deadlines are coming, production manager--so they sit around and watch the guys on the line do all the work--retail store manager--what could possibly be so important in a store that can't wait until tomorrow?

The only one on that list that has a legitimate excuse is the doctor--but then again they make $350K+/year too.

Taking a phone call during dinner is NOT the same as correcting 165 essays.

 

[bicker]

At this point taking a reduction is salary would be the reasonable thing to do because it would salvage jobs. Unfortunately, people are not particularly reasonable.

That's a good point.

The only saving grace will be that the families who can afford to do so will inevitably pull their kids out of public schools and put them in private schools which will alleviate the strain on resources. But people will be slow to act so things will get worse before they get better and we find a new equilibrium.

And, unfortunately, there are moves afoot that would scuttle any advantage to society from such actions, with people who put their children into private schools insisting that their tax money should either be redirected to reduce the tuition they are required to pay, or remitted back to them as a tax credit. (Of course, the silliness of that perspective is indicated by the fact that my wife and I have no children in the system, and yet we're still required to pay just as much in taxes to support schools as anyone.)

 

[OceanAnnie]

Any job that is dependent on tax revenues is in danger because people without money can't pay taxes. In some parts of the country 20% of people are either un-employed or under-employed. How are these people going to pay their taxes? Well, they are not. The only people that don't seem to realize this are the budgeting people because they keep writing imaginary budgets with imaginary monopoly money. If you have $1,000,000 and 10 employees everyone gets $100,000 but reduce that budget to $500,000 and you either have 10 people making $50,000 or 5 people making $100,000.

At this point taking a reduction is salary would be the reasonable thing to do because it would salvage jobs. Unfortunately, people are not particularly reasonable. As a result I suspect our schools are going to look remarkably different next September and many many teachers & other municipal employees will be joining the ranks of the unemployed. The schools will have no choice but to cut back,the resources will dry up and those left teaching will have to deal with classes becoming more crowded with less cared for children because social services is taking a hit too. The only saving grace will be that the families who can afford to do so will inevitably pull their kids out of public schools and put them in private schools which will alleviate the strain on resources. But people will be slow to act so things will get worse before they get better and we find a new equilibrium.

This isn't seeing into the future, Economics is simply about following the dominoes... sometimes I wish it wasn't so cut and dry, but if history has taught us anything it's that those who refuse to learn from it are doomed to repeat it.

That said, I think it is a dangerous assumption to think salary is equated with ability right now. At the moment many people are struggling and it has nothing to do with their worth either as professionals or as people..

All valid points. I wholeheartedly agree. I would rather say I have have a job with reduced benefits, than I used to have a job as a teacher. There are proposals for massive teacher layoffs in many locations. Reducing benefit packages (not just teachers, admins too) would save jobs. That's reality.

 

[HsvTeacher]

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[bicker]

I think many districts could cut a few high salaried administrative and non-teaching positions.

And save an insignificant percentage of the deficit.

People love to take pot-shots at the executive management, as if they and their very high salaries represent a significant amount of the cost of providing what the organization that they lead provides. It's almost always bunk.

Beyond that, as I said earlier, if you pay for sucky leaders, then you'll get sucky leaders, and you'll end up paying more for that in the long-run. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

It's popular around here to have a "communications and media specialist," which is essentially a PR position. When you have a defined revenue stream and a defined population to service, I don't think spending $75K/year for PR is really necessary.

Without really getting into the merits of "communications and media specialists," the reality is that the ubiquitous myopic self-absorption and general irresponsibility of citizens and taxpayers have made such a position a net-gain for students and for the instructional objectives of our schools. If you really want to eliminate that $75K, get your neighbors to stop acting like spoiled children so much.

 

[golfgal]

Hope I've cleared those points up for you. I've worked in the same system for long enough to know that funds could be better spent. I'd much rather those issues be addressed than losing front-line teachers.

Fine, if these things are really happening in your district, then yes, they should be dealt with. I have to say, the work ethic in the south is not exactly the best so what can the district to about that? The wall painting example would never fly here-they would be fired on the spot.

As for the superintendent's compensation, all I can say is that is the norm around the country and if you would prefer a superintendent that HAS to take on your district vs WANTS to take on your district, where will that really get you? Compare her job to the corporate world and she would be making MILLIONS. Your district is somewhat smaller then our district but appears to have similar positions. We only have one assistant superintendent but we have various "director' positions that do a lot of that work too. Quite honestly, our superintendent doesn't make enough in my book.

Our maintenance people do not take school vehicles home. Perhaps some of that is to keep the vehicles from being vandalized???

 

[DawnCt1]

So in one post you say how expensive it is to live in CT then the next you have the highest paid teachers, well, one would follow the other, wouldn't it. If you go by this chart: http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state where the COL is figured into the equation, CT are paid middle of the road for the US with the rest of the NE states coming in at the bottom.



So you bring up economics, cutting salaries had a negative effect as well. It reduces spending power for those individuals, thus, creating more havoc in the economy. The WORST thing that can be done in a bad economy is to cut salaries but it always the first thing that happens.

Actually what I said is among the highest paid teachers, and that is certainly true that Ct. has a high cost of doing business. We also have a budget deficit, although certainly not as high as Minnesota's which ranks in the top ten. Colorado also has a budget deficit. So the question remains. How do states and towns close these deficits? There is no money tree in the backyard of the state capitals.

 

[HsvTeacher]

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[dsny1mom]

As far as the hours go, no I'm not required to work extra hours. I do it because I am not one of those teachers that sits at my desk and completes my planbook or grades papers while my students do busy work. I am required by contract to be at school at a certain time and stay until a certain time. I am currently teaching at a Saturday Academy. I get a stipend for that because it's not a part of my contract. Same for summer school or after school tutorials and coaching. I did do the school yearbook for a few years and that was done on my own time for no extra pay because I'm an elementary teacher and we don't get extra for that kind of thing.
What professions require employees to bring work home? I only ask because every time a teacher mentions bringing work home, someone says that almost EVERY profession does too, but nobody ever mentions what those professions are.

The union is in place to protect us from administrators that would otherwise force us to do things that are not part of our contracted job. Non-tenured teachers have it happen all the time to them. Administrators know they won't complain because if they do they will not make it another year.
I had an administrator one year that would give us something to do right before a vacation with a due date of the day we returned. We put in a grievance and got the union involved and she backed down. If the union wasn't there, she would continue with things like this and start piling more and more on top of that.



I would make people pay extra for family coverage. School districts should cover the employee, nobody else. If you want family coverage it should be available at an additional cost. I have single coverage and what they are paying for me vs. a family amounts to about $7000 more a year. I have a friend at school who is married to a cop and she turned down our benefits because her husband's plan is much better. She gets money back each year for not getting coverage.

Professionals that routinely bring work home range from retail managers to physicians. Many retail managers do alot of paperwork at home, freeing up their in store time to actually assist customers, train employees and lead by example. Pediatricians are known for spending a fair amount of their at home time on the phone with their patients parents and pharmacies. There are plenty of other professionals that bring work home. One of my children is a case manager at an inpateint facilty for abused children, while she earns her doctorate. IMHO her choosen profession is no less important to the future of our children than a teachers is. She brings a considerable amount of work home, as well. There are postions that never require work outside of one's scheduled times. They do tend to be either very technical postions or what are considered non skilled*** labor jobs (ie: cashiers, housekeepers, janitors, etc.) ***Note that I don't necessarily consider these non skilled jobs.

Your example above is exactly why unions should be done away with. In the non union working world if one's supervisor gives a deadline for a report, project, or whatever the employee does the work or deals with the consequences. Back in 1950 Ward Cleaver would be home for dinner at 5:00pm and spend the weekends tossing a ball around with Wally and the Beaver. Sadly this isn't a 1950's type of world any longer.

Employees in America don't need unions to shield them from "real" employer abuse any longer. Expecting an employee to do additional work beyond their scheduled hours isn't abusive, it is the norm. Most states are at will work states and if someone doesn't like being given work that requires some off hours to complete it they can find another job or profession.

I must add I do agree with you about the benefits. I think it is very very wrong that any employee in any profession would be given one penny because they choose not to accept any benefit that is offered to all employees. The fact that it is even considered to be a viable option to an employee just shows me what an entitlement mentality some have.

dsny1mom

 

[kaytieeldr]

Ok, an accountant is only busy from January to April 15 so they get paid a high salary to work 3 1/2 months/year, same with the comptroller.

Oh. You might want to tell my former boss that... any night after work, between May and December, when she's lugging home work.

Unless you think NOTHING financial even matters between May and December, that these people have no work to do 3/4 of the year?

 

[kaytieeldr]

I was not watching them, but someone in our building who is running around the school a lot saw it and reported it. It's actually very common.

Oh, I know you weren't watching the painters!

 

[HsvTeacher]

Fine, if these things are really happening in your district, then yes, they should be dealt with. I have to say, the work ethic in the south is not exactly the best so what can the district to about that? The wall painting example would never fly here-they would be fired on the spot.

Wow! Assume much? May I ask how long you lived and worked in the South? The majority of the working force in our area have an extremely high work ethic.


As for the superintendent's compensation, all I can say is that is the norm around the country and if you would prefer a superintendent that HAS to take on your district vs WANTS to take on your district, where will that really get you? Compare her job to the corporate world and she would be making MILLIONS. Your district is somewhat smaller then our district but appears to have similar positions. We only have one assistant superintendent but we have various "director' positions that do a lot of that work too. Quite honestly, our superintendent doesn't make enough in my book.

So, you're saying that your system is the same size as mine, and you only have ONE assistant superintendent? Isn't that what I recommended in my first post?

Our maintenance people do not take school vehicles home. Perhaps some of that is to keep the vehicles from being vandalized???

No, we have guarded parking lots and buildings for vehicle storage. I've never heard of any vandalism.

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[HsvTeacher]

Oh, I know you weren't watching the painters!

Trust me, I have more important things to do than watch butt-crack bearing painters!

 

[golfgal]

Actually what I said is among the highest paid teachers, and that is certainly true that Ct. has a high cost of doing business. We also have a budget deficit, although certainly not as high as Minnesota's which ranks in the top ten. Colorado also has a budget deficit. So the question remains. How do states and towns close these deficits? There is no money tree in the backyard of the state capitals.

Until our current governor took office our state had a HUGE surplus. In the past 4 years he has refused to raise taxes and has CAUSED the mess we are in. No, there is no money tree but there ARE reasonable ways to deal with a state budget and expecting zero tax increases and forcing a state into mediocrity is NOT the way to accomplish this. Most people in our state live here for the high standard of living and realize with that, you pay high taxes. I don't begrudge a DIME of tax we pay, and we pay plenty, because what we get in return is worth every penny.

Oh. You might want to tell my former boss that... any night after work, between May and December, when she's lugging home work.

Unless you think NOTHING financial even matters between May and December, that these people have no work to do 3/4 of the year?

I was simply exaggerating the same types of comments that come up about teachers and how little they work. Same difference that teachers never work on days that kids aren't in school.

 

[hniki234]

Ok, an accountant is only busy from January to April 15 so they get paid a high salary to work 3 1/2 months/year, same with the comptroller. The city manager is only busy during budget times, give me a break, a department store scheduler-like they have to do anything but sit around and put numbers in a computer, editor--they only have a couple days of work/year when their deadlines are coming, production manager--so they sit around and watch the guys on the line do all the work--retail store manager--what could possibly be so important in a store that can't wait until tomorrow?

The only one on that list that has a legitimate excuse is the doctor--but then again they make $350K+/year too.

Taking a phone call during dinner is NOT the same as correcting 165 essays.

I just wanted to chime in to say that accountants don't just do taxes. In fact, some accountants don't do taxes at all.

As for other jobs that require take home work with no additional pay, I was an attorney for a state agency and I had to take work home almost daily. And before anyone mentions a high salary, I was making less than $40,000 a year to represent mentally ill persons and abused/neglected children. Many other salaried attorneys have the same at-home work with no additional pay.

I'm not saying that teachers don't deserve to be paid well. They do. But the argument about take-home work is a bit weak because lots of people have extra unpaid hours that go along with their job.

 

[golfgal]

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Did you read the rest of my post where I said if those things are really happening they should be cut? As for our district, a job title is a job title, our "directors" probably get paid as much as your assistant superintendents do.

The problem here is that a lot of people with zero knowledge of how schools operate come in and throw out all these grand ideas that they really don't know if they happen or not; they just heard from their neighbors, sister's cousins brother that 2 guys took 5 days to paint a wall. If you have first hand knowledge of these wastes, then by all means, contact your school board members or run for the school board and get them addressed.

 

[golfgal]

I just wanted to chime in to say that accountants don't just do taxes. In fact, some accountants don't do taxes at all.

As for other jobs that require take home work with no additional pay, I was an attorney for a state agency and I had to take work home almost daily. And before anyone mentions a high salary, I was making less than $40,000 a year to represent mentally ill persons and abused/neglected children. Many other salaried attorneys have the same at-home work with no additional pay.

I'm not saying that teachers don't deserve to be paid well. They do. But the argument about take-home work is a bit weak because lots of people have extra unpaid hours that go along with their job.

Then people need to stop bringing up how little teachers work for what they get paid. Not all attorneys or CPA's bring home work and many barely work 40 hours/week. Does that make them bad CPA's or attorneys?

 

[HsvTeacher]

Did you read the rest of my post where I said if those things are really happening they should be cut? As for our district, a job title is a job title, our "directors" probably get paid as much as your assistant superintendents do.

The problem here is that a lot of people with zero knowledge of how schools operate come in and throw out all these grand ideas that they really don't know if they happen or not; they just heard from their neighbors, sister's cousins brother that 2 guys took 5 days to paint a wall. If you have first hand knowledge of these wastes, then by all means, contact your school board members or run for the school board and get them addressed.

Yes, I read the rest of your post. I thought your statement about the work ethic of southern people was rude and unnecessary unless you have witnessed it firsthand. It was kind of ironic considering what you said in your second paragraph.

If I could run for the school board, I would. Unfortunately, it's a conflict of interest.

 

[DawnCt1]

Ok, an accountant is only busy from January to April 15 so they get paid a high salary to work 3 1/2 months/year, same with the comptroller. The city manager is only busy during budget times, give me a break, a department store scheduler-like they have to do anything but sit around and put numbers in a computer, editor--they only have a couple days of work/year when their deadlines are coming, production manager--so they sit around and watch the guys on the line do all the work--retail store manager--what could possibly be so important in a store that can't wait until tomorrow?

The only one on that list that has a legitimate excuse is the doctor--but then again they make $350K+/year too.

Taking a phone call during dinner is NOT the same as correcting 165 essays.

They do? The average primary care physician makes far less than that and they work far more than 40 hours per week. A 60 to 80 hour work week for most physician is not unusual. http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm Also consider that most are close to 30 before they actually begin working....and paying off those massive student loans that got them to their profession in the first place.

 

[dsny1mom]

Ok, an accountant is only busy from January to April 15 so they get paid a high salary to work 3 1/2 months/year, same with the comptroller. The city manager is only busy during budget times, give me a break, a department store scheduler-like they have to do anything but sit around and put numbers in a computer, editor--they only have a couple days of work/year when their deadlines are coming, production manager--so they sit around and watch the guys on the line do all the work--retail store manager--what could possibly be so important in a store that can't wait until tomorrow?

The only one on that list that has a legitimate excuse is the doctor--but then again they make $350K+/year too.

Taking a phone call during dinner is NOT the same as correcting 165 essays.

In order to defend the postion that teachers should be exempt from what is expected of other professionals you managed to trivialize no less than 7 professions in one post. Amazing and scarey at the same time.

dsny1mom