What I thought, What I think I learned and What I don't know

[Tdisney]

I think this might be helpful to some people who have questions like I did before buying. So maybe this should be duplicated in the buying DVC forums as well. Ill leave it up for the mods to decide. When I purchased DVC I was under certain assumptions from what I was told by my agent. Now I am not saying my agent was dishonest, it could have been my misunderstanding of the answers to my questions. But here goes. I thought the way DVC worked was that there were so many rooms of a particular type at a particular DVC resort with a certain number of points associated with the rooms that were sold as contracts to individuals who could then use the points to rent the rooms. So BCV has so many two bedrooms at the complex and so there would be so many points distributed over the year to cover the entire stay for that two bedroom villa and those points were then divided up and sold as contracts. Also as a member I could use my points to reserve the Disney collections. And it was through trading my "membership points" for "reservation points" at a non DVC resort is how Disney was able to then rent out DVC rooms to non DVC members for cash. Also if i was unable to make a reservation using my points I could stay at any non DVC resort through cash and receive a DVC discount. What I have essentially found out. That there really are three categories of rooms at a DVC resort. The 1st category is rooms available to rent with points. The 2nd are rooms DVC members can pay cash for and the 3rd are rooms that Disney rents out for cash. Again my understanding that there was the 1st category and the 3rd category The 3rd category being the rooms disney got from people using their points to trade out for Disney Collection series. So my question is where does the 2nd category come from ? Why does DVC hold rooms for cash reservation to DVC members instead of letting them rent them with points. Many people may not know that there is a distinction between the two, but there clearly is. When i was trying to book a reservation using my points it told me there was no availability for several nights during my stay on points but that there was cash availability. I was under the assumption that this cash availability came from Disney's inventory off of Collection swaps. Well as I was booking member services informed me that 2 nights were available on points, 3 nights were available for cash but the other two nights were not available. Well I was staring at Disney's reservation site, not DVC and it had availability for the days DVC said no cash availability. Well I told them that and they said it was a computer glitch but there were none available. Guess what, I booked them right there and then as I was talking to DVC members service. And I told them I just booked what you told me was unavailable. So then he puts me on hold and says well those were Disney's inventory not ours. So my questions was well where does DVC cash inventory come from if it is different from Disney's ? Why does DVC hold rooms from its members to rent out as cash if they are available. And remember these are supposedly not Disney's inventory. Which I now believe because i was able to pay cash for the remaining nights through Disney at a much higher rate because I did not get my DVC discount. So I called Disney to see if they would give me a DVC discount and I was told to call member services. I told them they said there was none left to pay cash for even though i did through disney. They also informed me that they were from different inventory. So where does DVC cash inventory come from?

And another thing that is disturbing that since Disney has made it mandatory to buy points from them if you want to use them for Disney collections. Now I know this is not where DVC value is, but it essentially de values my points. Because if I go to resell my points, the buyer does not get the Disney collection perks that were associated with the points when I bought them.

Just on another note. I was told Grand Floridian will be getting its own DVC resort according to member services.

Also if a member books more then one room and does not put another name down on the second room as the primary resident, the computer may bump one of your rooms. apparently doesn't like tow rooms with your name on both of them.

As always, if you believe I am wrong with anything I have said please let me know, as there are some people on here who have forgotten more then I will know.

Thanks

 

[disneynutz]

You are correct as far as I know. DVD has points that they keep and pay dues for that we as members can't touch. They also have use of sales inventory that hasn't been sold yet and inventory that has not yet been made available for sale.

Take away all of the romance and magic of Disney and realize that it is a for profit business and that 95% of their actions and policies benefit them, not the public. You need to understand how a big business works and how to play their game.

Using your knowledge to make the best decisions about membership and spending time with Disney puts you in a different category with Disney.

That being said, Disney and their products are a wonderful way to get away from the rest of the world and a place where you and your family can experience a magical time if you know what's behind the curtain and you use it to your advantage.

Bill

 

[Deb & Bill]

One more thing. DVC members do not get a discounted cash reservation for non-DVC properties. Ever, unless they have an AP and can qualify for an AP rate instead of rack rate. And, the DVC member discount is not always available on DVC properties. It might be and it might not be. I haven't yet found out the difference.

You have to remember the DVC resorts are not hotels. They are timeshares. Members only have access to what is actually sold. And when another member trades their membership out for anything, that reduces inventory for other members to use.

 

[Tdisney]

Deb and Bill, because I was not able to get my reservation at the BCV I got a cash room from BC, not the villas on a standard room and the rate was quoted to me as DVC member discount price. And it was significantly cheaper then doing it through Disney.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Deb and Bill, because I was not able to get my reservation at the BCV I got a cash room from BC, not the villas on a standard room and the rate was quoted to me as DVC member discount price. And it was significantly cheaper then doing it through Disney.

You must have misunderstood because there is no discount for the BC for DVC members. Or they were just being nice to you.

 

[Tdisney]

It certainly could have been being nice. We go to Disney enough to warrant something like that.

Since we are talking about the same thing in two threads Ill keep it here.

But your point about Disney keeping some in inventory for maintenance or something like that. Warrants to know why then some people are getting bumped to other resorts from overbooking. I can understand if it was done on cash ressie, but on points there should be an allotted amount and then some reserves for maintenance issues unless coincidentally a bunch of room went sour at once. But from what I have read they actually told members that they were overbooked.

So you are saying Disney's cash reservation at DVC comes from people swapping their points out for the Disney Collection Series. That is understandable. And cash room DVC has is what they did not sell to keep some in reserves. But shouldn't they keep them in reserves for maintenance issues, and not sell them for cash unless it is last minute. I wouldn't think 4 months out would be last minute. I could understand if I called a weak before i wanted to go and they said well we had some in reserve for emergencies but it looks good so here you go for cash.

 

[wdrl]

Perhaps you are confusing "inventories" with "ownership" at DVC resorts. There are two inventories at a DVC resort: The DVC inventory, which represents the portion of the DVC resort that has been declared for the DVC Membership; and the Non-DVC inventory. At BCV, BWV, BLT, SSR, HHI, VWL, OKW, VGC, and VB, the entire DVC resort has been declared for the DVC inventory. At AKV, only 74.96% of the resort has been declared for the membership; thus, AKV has 25.04% non-DVC inventory.

On any given Use Day, the percentage of a resort that DVC Members can book using points cannot exceed the percentage of the DVC inventory. At BLT, 100% of the resort could be booked by Members using points; at AKV, only 74.96% can be booked using points. The Master Declarations for all the resorts are very specific that DVC Members cannot use points to book accommodations if they would exceed the inventory percentage.

The next step to consider is who owns the points. Although 100% of a DVC resort may be declared for the DVC inventory, the Master Declaration of all DVC resorts requires that at least 2% of the total points is owned by Disney Vacation Development (DVD). At BCV, that represents about 60,500 points each year that DVD owns and can use for cash reservations.

In addition to the mandated 2% that cannot be sold to the general public, DVD also owns those points it has reacquired via foreclosure proceedings, exercising its right of first refusal on resale transactions, and other buyback reasons. Once DVD reacquires these points, they become part of DVD's holdings in each resort. These points are then made available to the general public for cash reservations. Because of the reacquired points, it would not surprise me to learn that DVD owns more than 5% of the total points at BCV, BWV, or other fully declared resorts.

There is another subset of points that will affect the number of Vacation Homes that are available for cash reservations. Whenever a DVC Member exchanges their points for the Disney Collection, the Concierge Collection, or the Adventure Collection, the underlying points are converted into cash reservations. This is because the DVC must pay for the exchange. If 60,000 points are exchanged into the Disney Cruise Line, then 60,000 points worth of accommodations are no longer available for Members to book using points.

So, even for DVC resorts like BCV that are 100% declared for the DVC Membership, there will always be a percentage that will not be available for booking by Members using points.

As DVC Members, we are sometimes permitted to make discounted cash reservations at DVC resorts. These villas come from those points owned by DVD. DVD can decide if and when to offer these discounts to DVC Members.

 

[Tdisney]

Deb and Bill

In my other thread you responded that Disney may keep 2-5% inventory for themselves. Let say it is on the high side of 5%. DVC membership also told me they estimate as little as 5% of members actually trade their points for Collections series because it is such a terrible value. I looked at a week at the Grand Floridian, garden view standard room. 400 points. I was floored. It is just 253 for a week for a two bedroom villa at BCV.

I had another question, can DRC dip into DVC cash reservations if they have the demand but not the supply. I would think not. Since DVC cash rooms are from their own inventory.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Deb and Bill

In my other thread you responded that Disney may keep 2-5% inventory for themselves. Let say it is on the high side of 5%. DVC membership also told me they estimate as little as 5% of members actually trade their points for Collections series because it is such a terrible value. I looked at a week at the Grand Floridian, garden view standard room. 400 points. I was floored. It is just 253 for a week for a two bedroom villa at BCV.

I had another question, can DRC dip into DVC cash reservations if they have the demand but not the supply. I would think not. Since DVC cash rooms are from their own inventory.

A few years ago, there were almost no rules about non-DVC Disney stays. Then the no booking within the last four months of the UY to stay during that same time. Members couldn't find something at their home resort, so they booked the Disney Collection. But DVC got stuck with points that expired and they couldn't resell the lodging. So they implemented that rule.

Then last year, the implemented the "resales cannot book the Disney Collection if they were purchased after March 20, 2011" rule. That further reduced the amount of points to resell to pay for the trips. But with the new cruise ships, the the high number of points required, there are a lot of points the DVC has to sell to recover the cruise bookings. Last fall or maybe the fall before, all of a sudden, no one could book cruises with points for a year or more out.

I think there are more points being used for the Disney Collection as the number of points grow - more resort, more points. They have to reduce the reselling of DVC lodging to pay for those non-DVC stays. When it was just OKW, it wasn't too bad. Now there are seven at WDW, one at DL, three offsite. That's a whole lot of points. And everyone wants to stay in the newest resort.

 

[Tdisney]

wdrl, can you clarify something ? Disney Vacation Development. Exactly, what do they own, the DVC resorts and all other resorts or just DVC or just the other resorts.

 

[bumbershoot]

Warrants to know why then some people are getting bumped to other resorts from overbooking. .... But from what I have read they actually told members that they were overbooked.

Just out of curiosity, where are you reading this? I can only think of the one thread, where it's a friend/renter of an owner who is being told this by their friend/renter.

 

[Chuck S]

DVD is the developer and sales arm of DVC. They build the resorts, conduct the sales, and hold the right to use any unsold points as well as points the regain through foreclosures, defaults and ROFR. DVC is two organizations operating under one umbrella; both DVC Management (Member Services, maintenance, Member Accounting) and DVC (the association) is the membership working in chorus with one another.

 

[Chuck S]

wdrl, can you clarify something ? Disney Vacation Development. Exactly, what do they own, the DVC resorts and all other resorts or just DVC or just the other resorts.

This occasionally happens due to computer glitches or special events, like former US Presidents visiting and other VIPs that need special security/privacy. It is not a regular occurrence.

 

[Tdisney]

Chuck, thanks for clarifying. It would be interesting to take a poll to find out how many people are staying on points and are staying on cash during a sold out week. If our estimates of 5% for DVD and 5% for Disney reservation center, then somewhere around 90% should be staying on points.

 

[Tdisney]

Perhaps you are confusing "inventories" with "ownership" at DVC resorts. There are two inventories at a DVC resort: The DVC inventory, which represents the portion of the DVC resort that has been declared for the DVC Membership; and the Non-DVC inventory. At BCV, BWV, BLT, SSR, HHI, VWL, OKW, VGC, and VB, the entire DVC resort has been declared for the DVC inventory. At AKV, only 74.96% of the resort has been declared for the membership; thus, AKV has 25.04% non-DVC inventory.

On any given Use Day, the percentage of a resort that DVC Members can book using points cannot exceed the percentage of the DVC inventory. At BLT, 100% of the resort could be booked by Members using points; at AKV, only 74.96% can be booked using points. The Master Declarations for all the resorts are very specific that DVC Members cannot use points to book accommodations if they would exceed the inventory percentage.

The next step to consider is who owns the points. Although 100% of a DVC resort may be declared for the DVC inventory, the Master Declaration of all DVC resorts requires that at least 2% of the total points is owned by Disney Vacation Development (DVD). At BCV, that represents about 60,500 points each year that DVD owns and can use for cash reservations.

In addition to the mandated 2% that cannot be sold to the general public, DVD also owns those points it has reacquired via foreclosure proceedings, exercising its right of first refusal on resale transactions, and other buyback reasons. Once DVD reacquires these points, they become part of DVD's holdings in each resort. These points are then made available to the general public for cash reservations. Because of the reacquired points, it would not surprise me to learn that DVD owns more than 5% of the total points at BCV, BWV, or other fully declared resorts.

There is another subset of points that will affect the number of Vacation Homes that are available for cash reservations. Whenever a DVC Member exchanges their points for the Disney Collection, the Concierge Collection, or the Adventure Collection, the underlying points are converted into cash reservations. This is because the DVC must pay for the exchange. If 60,000 points are exchanged into the Disney Cruise Line, then 60,000 points worth of accommodations are no longer available for Members to book using points.

So, even for DVC resorts like BCV that are 100% declared for the DVC Membership, there will always be a percentage that will not be available for booking by Members using points.

As DVC Members, we are sometimes permitted to make discounted cash reservations at DVC resorts. These villas come from those points owned by DVD. DVD can decide if and when to offer these discounts to DVC Members.

WDRL, Can you clarify who the general public is. Did you mean Any one or DVC members only. If it is any one how do these points get into the Disney reservation center's inventory ?

 

[Sandisw]

WDRL, Can you clarify who the general public is. Did you mean Any one or DVC members only. If it is any one how do these points get into the Disney reservation center's inventory ?

The points owned by DVD are routinely sold for cash reservations, either through WDW Central Reservations or through DVC MS to DVC members at a cash discount.

I try to think of it this way. I own 330 DVC points, split between BLT and BWV. I can choose what I do with those points--either use them myself or make a reservation and let others stay in the rooms. But, it is up to me, as owner of the points, to decide what to do with them. You, as another member, would never have access to them, even if I choose to rent a reservation and not use it.

DVD is just that--another DVC owner--they have their own points and can do with them what they want. The only difference is that they, when other members trade out of DVC, get to have that member's points to offer up for a cash reservation since they are the ones who have to pay for the trade out.

So, when you look at Disney's website and see DVC rooms for rent, what you are really seeing is points inventory owned by someone else.

 

[Lynne M]

The points owned by DVD are routinely sold for cash reservations, either through WDW Central Reservations or through DVC MS to DVC members at a cash discount.

I try to think of it this way. I own 330 DVC points, split between BLT and BWV. I can choose what I do with those points--either use them myself or make a reservation and let others stay in the rooms. But, it is up to me, as owner of the points, to decide what to do with them. You, as another member, would never have access to them, even if I choose to rent a reservation and not use it.

DVD is just that--another DVC owner--they have their own points and can do with them what they want. The only difference is that they, when other members trade out of DVC, get to have that member's points to offer up for a cash reservation since they are the ones who have to pay for the trade out.

So, when you look at Disney's website and see DVC rooms for rent, what you are really seeing is points inventory owned by someone else.

Well put.

I think the OP's concern, at its base, is that Disney (CRO) is somehow raiding the member inventory for rooms to sell for their own profit, and therefore taking away rooms that we members should be able to reserve.

That is not happening. It would be illegal; a huge violation of FL timeshare law.

OP, as we've explained in this thread and your other one, there are a number of entirely legitimate reasons for rooms at DVC resorts to show up as available for cash reservations. We can't book them with our points because they don't belong to us. They belong to Disney. Disney has paid for them, Disney is paying the maintenance fees on them, they're entitled to reserve them for people and get paid for that, just as you and I are entitled to reserve rooms for people with our points and get paid for that.

 

[Dean]

Tdisney, you are learning about the real system and not the assumptions you made when purchasing. As for points, DVD sells between 96-98% of the points available. You'd arrive at the total points but taking all units and doing the match on what it'd take to reserve all units including any lockoff not locked off. As for cash, there are several buckets that end up that way. These include units reserved on points from undeclared inventory, inventory declared but not yet sold, inventory acquired by Right of First Refusal, units given to CRO (or rented directly to members on cash) to compensate for exchange options (DCL, etc) and breakage inventory (unused or anticipated to be unused). The rest is only available for points reservations.

You see people freaking out from time to time because what they want is available cash but not points. Once they understand how the system works, they should be OK with it if they're reasonable. From a guide standpoint, it's not their responsibility to worry about your specific situation or make sure DVC is right for you, their job is to sell and get you to buy. Disney also has no responsibility to preserve your value, not only that, the POS says that you should not buy expecting returns either sale or rental.

As for the two names, all you have to worry about is the lead name.

 

[Tdisney]

Lynn, my concern is not that Disney is raiding our rooms and turning around and making a profit. But what I am trying to figure out is how some rooms end up at DRC for rent for cash but can not rent for cash through DVC. Does DVD own both ? Or is DVC and DRC two completely separate entities ? I understand how rooms get turned into cash reservations. I have no problem with that. But when I am on with DVC and they say they have no rooms for cash reservations then I turn around in less then a minute and book cash through DRC, its a little frustrating. If for some reason I have to change my vacation plans at the last minute, that is my problem and I don't expect room to be available. But if through DRC a cash reservation is available at a DVC resort shouldn't I as a DVC member be able to rent those through DVC. Renting them through DRC causes more then just a rate issue. You are also not able to request DVC to try a book a continuos stay in the same room or any other request you have because it is in a different system. So If I wait list and get a couple of nights that come through then I have to call and try to change my reservation and it may completely cancel my reservation if I modify it from a week to a few nights here and there.

 

[disneynutz]

I hate to sound like a broken record but it is always the money. Is there a limit on the number of discounted rooms made available to the DVC because they want to offer the perk but not really give too many away at a discount? That's what they do with DCL.

Bill