What am I missing? DVC vs. Marriot

[Dyefrog]

I posted this on another DVC forum but cross posting here too. Hope this doesn't derail into tribal warfare but trying to get a handle on due diligence before I try again to purchase a DVC contract.
Quick background, last spring, had a contract accepted and pass ROFR only to hit a wall when the owners failed to mention to the broker that they had a IRS tax lien. That put them in default due to timing to release the lien so I backed out. It had points that were approaching the expiration to roll and I had planned a trip that would have been iffy availability waiting another month. Broker was good about it, no complaints and they let me know as soon as they knew. Would use them and title company again. No hard feelings.
I'm not hardcore Disney but I have family members that are and I have two young grandchildren that I can't wait to share their Disney memories. But, being recently retired, my plans are to travel and not just to Orlando. Not a beach person, neither is my partner but we are quite active and enjoy exploring wherever we end up. Not sure how long it would take for the DVC resorts to get old but certainly longer than the same Villa in Costa Rica.
Did Hawaii about 10 years ago and absolutely loved it but the 11 hour plane ride makes it an anomaly. I don't mind the pre-planning that timeshares and DVC require within reason but need some flexibility. Not a fixed week or even time of year.

I've noticed a number of members both here and on TUG that own both DVC and some other conventional timeshares or Vacation Clubs and they find value in both. I haven't sat through a timeshare hard sell in 15 years but I have a knee jerk reaction to conventional ones based on a number of things.

• Relentless sales tactics at every opportunity requiring bribes to just survive one
• Painful and sometimes difficult if not impossible exit strategy
• Lifetime contract
• Depreciation

Above are some of the issues that I see as cons compared to DVC unless I'm misunderstanding how they work now. For comparison, I've contacted Disney Direct over the phone recently and in the early/mid 90's had a brief rundown with a sales consultant at a DVC kiosk. Not sure it was called that then but certainly no badgering or pulling in the big guns trying to convince me I would be a fool to not buy. On the other hand, I've seen numerous videos from couples that endured 4 hours of a 90 minute presentation that was mostly hard selling tactics. If it's such a no-brainer, is that really necessary? There also seems to be a lot of finger pointing at each of these subsequent "obligatory" 90 minute presentations as they try to get existing owners to upgrade or move their contract because the last guy didn't know what he's doing. It just comes off shady. I know there are some timeshare pros that have never had to sit through the presentations and willingly purchase extensions or add-ons just like DVC so it may just be that the people that are most vocally complaining about the fraud and deception are just doing it wrong.

Apparently there are companies just as shady that will help a timeshare owner get rid of their obligation at the cost of thousands of dollars. Is it really that difficult to just sell your timeshare when you've decided you want out? This is even after the contract has been paid in full so it's just trying to avoid future MF's.

I've also read that if you can unload a timeshare, it's for free or next to nothing. It has no residual value after 10-20 years? Whereas, based on my rudimentary number crunching using past performance (not indicative of future yada, yada, yada) metrics, on average, DVC contracts bought resale can be worth 6.3% more/year. As an example, a CCV 200 point contract for $160pp today could be worth $52k in 10 years. The net gains of ~$20k would negate the MF's even accounting for 4% inflation ($7.60 amortized over 10 years =$16,800). So even if the cost of the DVC contract only matched inflation, you could almost argue the vacations were free (discounting the time value of the initial purchase).

Historical price per point - *******
History of DVC direct sales price: the prices DVC has charged over the years. Listed are the base prices - exclusive of any incentives being offered
https://i2.wp.com/*******.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/cropped-DVC_Info_Logo_512.png?fit=32%2C32&ssl=1 *******.com

This isn't about number of resorts or quality or flexibility, that's it's own topic. I'm mostly baffled by the seemingly disparate operational differences and how they affect the owners.

• Is it purely just that the Disney ecosystem doesn't need those gimmicks?
• Is there an alternate Vacation Club that mimics how DVC works and holds their value? E.g., do they have a similar ROFR that ensures the values stay up?
• If I can transfer points into the II network and still access the same resorts as the traditional timeshare resorts, what would be the reasoning to buy into them?
• What do they do better than DVC or vice-versa?

Convince me that Marriot or Wyndham after 10 years is the better choice.
TIA

 

[smmora]

• Is it purely just that the Disney ecosystem doesn't need those gimmicks?
  • Yes, but resales you dont have to deal with gimmicks on either type
• Is there an alternate Vacation Club that mimics how DVC works and holds their value? E.g., do they have a similar ROFR that ensures the values stay up?
  • Not that I've heard of
• If I can transfer points into the II network and still access the same resorts as the traditional timeshare resorts, what would be the reasoning to buy into them?
  • It's cheaper than using Disney points
• What do they do better than DVC or vice-versa?
  • Different product - I use them differently

I've had a timeshare since I was 25. I walked in and said I want to buy (they still made me sit through a presentation)
I stayed at way nicer resorts that I would have never paid cash for.
Also when I was young and traveling with my son I felt safer than staying at a random hotel I picked.
I stay at better hotels now, but I still prefer timeshares.
I decided to purchase Disney now because I had the cash to do so, I've missed Disney a lot, and I wont pay cash rates
I have up usually rented 2 bedroom timeshares in Orlando over the last 20 years, I dont think its the same
I consider staying on property as part of the experience and I like the idea of pre-paying for it - I wouldnt have invested the cash I spent on it, so pre-paying for Disney benefits me

I can't see myself using disney points for other timeshares - theres way cheaper timeshares I can use for trading
For Disney points I would only use or rent

 

[Brian Noble]

There's a lot here (and I may have responded on TUG as well). The short version is that DVC just isn't comparable to anything else, because it is a niche product for a very passionate but relatively small fan base. It is targeted to Disney vacations in particular. Other timeshares are targeted more to vacations in general.

The slightly longer version: From my perspective, a DVC ownership only makes sense when used for DVC-system resorts in Orlando. That's because a DVC ownership is necessarily expensive in both purchase and ongoing costs, and those costs only pencil out when you are considering Walt Disney World where the company has a near lock on the high-demand locations; if you want to vacation at WDW every year or every other year for the foreseeable future, DVC is (almost) the only game in town.

At most of the other locations---Hawaii, Hilton Head, and coastal Florida---there are other options that are in better locations but are cheaper to own. Anaheim is a niche market inside a niche market. If you're the target market, nothing else but Disney will do, even though there are perfectly nice hotels at a fraction of the price literally across the street from the Esplanade. For any other vacation, using DVC points directly is a bad dollars-and-cents value. That's true of the cruises, the non-DVC Disney hotels, and external exchange, whether through Interval or RCI.

The reason that most of the DVC owners on TUG own something else as well is that most TUGgers are interested in vacations in general and not just Disney in particular. So, they own DVC for their Disney fix, and they own something else for everything else.

So the first question is: Do you want to (a) vacation regularly at Disney, (b) vacation regularly in lots of different places, or (c) do both?

If (a) buy DVC. If (b) buy something else and just rent DVC when you want to go. If (c) buy DVC plus something else.

The Marriott vs. Wyndham question is one of price and quality. Marriott resorts are among the nicest in any timeshare system (including comparing favorably to DVC). They are generally expensive to buy and own, even resale. Marriott is also a bit of a kludge of a Weeks-based privileged exchange system with a Points system overlaid on top of it, so it is a little complicated to understand. But, if luxury is your top concern, Marriott is probably the right choice. Marriott resorts are not hard to sell and have an easy exit strategy, though the price can vary.

Wyndham is a more value-oriented choice. The resorts are variable. All of them are at least "3-star" nice, some are nicer, and a few are extraordinarily nice. They tend to the more comfortable rather than luxurious. In exchange, it is very inexpensive to buy (think pennies to a dime on the dollar) in the resale market, and it is less expensive to own. Wyndham generally takes back anything you don't want anymore, so there is an exit strategy. They don't pay you, but if you didn't pay much to buy because you bought resale, who cares? The trick here is to acquire a "good" ownership with a low ongoing cost per point ratio. Those will always have an exit path.

Interestingly, all three of these have ROFR on at least some of their products. Wyndham rarely exercises it even though the covered product is essentially free in resale transactions; they are able to generate enough churn through their take-back program. Marriott does for some high-demand locations, but not for lower-demand/overbuilt ones. Disney is the most aggressive, but that's not always been true. During the Great Recession, resale values tumbled hard and Disney stopped exercising ROFR. Some of us wonder how long it will be before the 2042 resorts enter a phase like this.

My conclusion from watching all three systems is that ROFR doesn't set the market, it follows it. But try convincing a DVC owner of that.

I would never buy a timeshare from the developer. I own enough for five weeks of vacation a year, and have never, not once, sat through a sales presentation. I will never attend a sales presentation, because my time is worth more than that, particularly while I am on vacation.

------------------

As a footnote, I mentioned that DVC was almost the only timeshare game in WDW. There is arguably one other: Wyndham Bonnet Creek. I've stayed in several DVC resorts (BCV, BLT, BRV, BWV, OKW, SSR), and at Bonnet. Our Bonnet vacations have been comparable in overall experience to our vacations at OKW or SSR. There are some things about those two DVC resorts I like better, but there are some things I like better about the Wyndham.

And, the Wyndham is located on a parcel that "feels like" it is on property even though it isn't. The history of this parcel is fascinating: https://yesterland.com/bonnet.html

 

[MICKIMINI]

Thanks Brian, for explaining a bit more about other WDW options! We started with OKW in 1996 and own OKW, SSR, HHI, VBR and hopefully AKV. In a couple years we want to spend 4-6 weeks in the WDW area and prefer 1 BR's. We gift our son and DIL at least 2 weeks in a studio. We can easily (and have) used 1000 DVC points in a year!

We were thinking a Wyndham Bonnet Creek might be a great option to supplement our DVC contracts. We stayed at Vistana once and didn't like it. We stayed at Orange Lake once and it was more residential (like OKW) but seems old. I picked up a few tidbits from your post that confirms we are on the right track considering WBC. Spending two weeks at WBC and then moving to DVC for three to four weeks would work. We have AP's and are leisurely travelers more interested in nice accommodations and a great pool. Presidential Villas sound like a good goal for us.

Your knowledge is appreciated and timing of your post amazing!

 

[Brian Noble]

Did Hawaii about 10 years ago and absolutely loved it but the 11 hour plane ride makes it an anomaly.

As an aside, we solve this by (a) going for 2-3 weeks at a time and (b) splitting the return trip into two days. Next time, we'll probably do all that, and also split the outbound trip into two days so that we aren't arriving at 9P local/3A body-clock time.

We might even do a long weekend in Pacific Time before continuing on to the islands to half-shift our body clocks. We spent three nights in Vancouver before embarking on a DCL Alaskan cruise for the same reason years ago, and that worked out really well. Plus Vancouver is super fun.

That all makes Hawaii a capital-C Commitment, but the place is special. My profile picture is from a trip there in '18.

 

[chalee94]

I've also read that if you can unload a timeshare, it's for free or next to nothing. It has no residual value after 10-20 years?

Generally true. Some Marriotts have decent resale value but never increases over direct pricing.

• Is it purely just that the Disney ecosystem doesn't need those gimmicks?

Disney is its own thing. People want to stay inside the bubble. People want to go back every year. People are willing to pay triple or more for a motel on Disney property with bright colors and giant icons than for similar quality motel offsite.

• Is there an alternate Vacation Club that mimics how DVC works and holds their value? E.g., do they have a similar ROFR that ensures the values stay up?

Yeah, I agree that this is backwards and mistakes correlation for causation. DVC has high value because onsite rental prices are very very high. When demand goes in the tank, Disney has shown an eagerness to drop ROFR so as not to risk getting stuck with inventory they can't easily resell. ROFR gives Disney options for even more profit with the machinery in place via kiosks all over property to directly sell contracts that they scoop up but it does not "prop up resale prices."

• If I can transfer points into the II network and still access the same resorts as the traditional timeshare resorts, what would be the reasoning to buy into them?

Beats me. That's what I do with my unbranded timeshare. I would never use DVC points for trades out of the DVC system, though- that's like trading a Lexus for a Ford in most cases.

• What do they do better than DVC or vice-versa?

Marriott has more and better options unless you are a Disney superfan. But the Disney superfans are what drives high resale values. If there is a change in the zeitgeist and interest in WDW wanes, resale prices will drop, ROFR or not.

 

[RoseGold]

Depends what “better” means to you.

Maybe that’s a condo in Costa Rica to you or the Hyatt ski lodge in beaver creek.

DVC is a VERY narrow, restrictive product. It’s cool that it holds its value, but big deal. Mathematically, it isn’t far off renting points or staying in very nice hotels, and I mean JW nice. You can accomplish a lot of the perks of the DVC system without locking in five figured that have to be spent at a theme park.

There’s nothing from the sales pitch you can’t learn from these boards. I mean this kindly. Just read a ton. Read some more. DVC is quite transparent, and you get a known, narrow, inflexible product.

DVC math isn’t a good fit for most and that’s ok. If you aren’t a theme park fan, and Disney in particular, I’m not sure why this is even being considered. Just invest the money and stay at a hotel.

 

[Dyefrog]

Thank you all for some great info. It does open up more questions though. Thanks Brian especially for the idea of splitting the Hawaii trip into two destinations. Brilliant.

The Wyndham Bonnet Creek comparison is a good one as it's probably as close of an apples to apples comparison. Based on what I'm reading, it sounds as though the initial DVC buy-in comparing a lump sum purchase resale, assuming average historical appreciation, would net a similar return as a no-cost WBC contract taken over with the only obligation being the Maintenance Fees. The pile of cash used for DVC returns a modest gain above inflation and similar to a Mutual Fund if that was the alternative. Whereas, the $0 invested in WBC initially is still worth $0, 10 years from now so time value of money cancels out. If the DVC contract lost value over those 10 years or I had to pay for the WBC contract which would be worthless in 10 years, then the numbers shake out differently.
That leaves the MF's as the primary financial determinant.

• Using my OP comparison of a 200 point CCV contract, does the $1,500 annual MF at DVC compare favorably in accommodations and benefits to what a $1,500 Marriot MF gets you? That would pencil out to an off-peak Studio for 2 weeks or a 1 bedroom for one at CCV.
• How difficult or expensive is it to swap Marriot points to stay elsewhere, non-Disney?
• Are there other Marriot perks and privileges comparable to the Disney bubble of convenience such as transportation, dining options, electric light parade, etc. Understanding that these can be subjective and hard to put a value on.

I'm well versed on the pros and cons of DVC and sharing what it offers to my family (of which many are current and future Disney fans) are what is keeping DVC's foot in the door. It's not just about me. However for more selfish reasons, the Marriot opportunities are appealing, especially if they can be had for the same amount of effort. It sounds like I may be getting both before this all shakes out.

 

[RoseGold]

Don’t count out just renting points. You don’t need to own a Disney timeshare to stay at one a few times. Or Wyndham. I’ve seen bonnet creek rentals on redweek REALLY cheap.

For the more expensive DVC properties, like Beach Club, renting DVC might even be cheaper than buying. Renting has risk, but it also has some upside. Any home resort, any size of room this time, skip a year or two no problem.

DVC as a hotel also has limitations. No housekeeping, some properties really need an update, embarrassingly bad website, limitations on accessibility, housekeeping pounding on the door at 9AM the day you’re supposed to check out, Disney linens and beds and toiletries, no room service most places, I can keep going. Maybe those things matter to you, maybe they don’t. The housekeepers the day of checkout is one I always have to warn people about. That’s not a great feeling for such an expensive product. As a hotelier, I’d choose Marriott all day every day.

 

[Shellyred8]

The reason that most of the DVC owners on TUG own something else as well is that most TUGgers are interested in vacations in general and not just Disney in particular. So, they own DVC for their Disney fix, and they own something else for everything else.

I really like this summary. It pretty much says it all. If you want to vacation at WDW on a regular basis (I would say once a year or maybe once every other year) for quite a few years to come and stay on-site in a Deluxe room, DVC is probably the way to go. Otherwise, I would vote for the Marriott timeshare (we have DVC and Marriott, I can't speak to WBC.).

Over the years, I've found that the quality of most of the Marriott resorts/room accommodations are better than most of the DVC accommodations. So, if you are trying to compare the quality of accommodations between DVC and Marriott, my experience says Marriott wins this comparison.

In regards to swapping points, with our Marriott TS, we usually bank our week into Interval International and then do exchanges through there. Like any timeshare, the further in advance you can book, the better. If we are doing a shorter-notice trip to the Orlando area, I usually find that it's easier to find a Marriott room available than a DVC room. If you travel during any of the "busy/popular" DVC times, you need to be booking your room at the 11 month mark. Booking short-notice trips with DVC can be challenging and sometimes next to impossible (there are fewer and fewer "slow" seasons at WDW, so it's getting harder and harder to book short notice trips).

The value of DVC, IMO, really is staying on-site in a Deluxe room at WDW and not have to worry about the ever-increasing room rate increases (with no increase in benefits). For example: A 1br villa at the Boardwalk Villas goes for about $718 a night (in late Aug). A 2br at Marriott's Royal Palms (close to Disney Springs) for the same time frame goes for about $250 a night. I've stayed in both and if just comparing the rooms themselves, IMO, Royal Palms wins hands-down (even if I was comparing it to a 2br at BWV, my opinion would be the same).

But if we stay at the Royal Palms, we have to rent a car and drive to and from the parks ourselves every day (dealing with traffic and the WDW parking lots). If we are staying at the BWV, we can walk to 2 of the parks and take Disney transportation to the other two. Not having to worry about the driving helps me to be able to disconnect from the "real world" during my vacation a little easier (the Disney-bubble effect) and there is value in that to me. Not everyone finds value in this, so that is something you will have to determine for yourself.

 

[MinnieSueB]

DVC as a hotel also has limitations. , embarrassingly bad website,

If I had known just how bad the website is - even today, I've been unable to make a reservation due to the website. It's bad - REALLY bad!

 

[Brian Noble]

The pile of cash used for DVC returns a modest gain above inflation and similar to a Mutual Fund if that was the alternative.

I am not sure this is true aside from the recent run-up in resale prices. I recall looking at DVC prices a few years ago, prior to the pandemic, and it seemed that they rose in constant dollars but lagged inflation somewhat. I will bet big that prices will not keep pace with inflation for 2042 resorts with a time horizon more than ten years. I am not sure what happens to the other resort resale prices as the 2042 resorts are re-flagged and (presumably) withdrawn from resale access. Maybe they keep up, maybe they don't.

Either way, if real appreciation is a necessary component of your purchase decision, I suspect you are trying to talk yourself into it. And, you don't really have to do that. Just buy it if you want it for you or for your family; it's fine. That's because I also think about timeshare purchases differently. I assume that the value of a timeshare will be negligible when I come to dispose of it, and ask if whether amortizing the purchase price at a reasonable ROI plus MFs is less than I might pay in rent for the same unit over, say, a 10 year horizon. If so, the purchase is worth getting no matter what the disposal value is---and if it is non-trivial, that's just a bonus. DVC generally passes this test purchased resale vs. renting from Disney at a prevailing discount, and usually passes vs. renting from an owner.

I am not sure why I assume zero value. It could be because timeshares in general work this way so that's the rut I'm in. It could be because I tend to be conservative in large discretionary purchases and try to err on the side of not making them. Or it could be some other reason that my analyst and I will eventually uncover.

I can't speak to the Marriott use cases, fee comparisons, etc. because I don't own it and never seriously considered buying, so I've not done my homework there. I'd strongly recommend hanging around the TUG Marriott forums for that.

For Wyndham, the carrying costs are definitely lower. A 2BR Prime week at Bonnet Creek is 224K points. If you owned their blended-trust product resale ($7.57/K), your cost in fees for that week would be just shy of $1,700. And the blended-trust product is at best average, and probably a little worse than average. For comparison, my overall rate is much lower. Mine is unusually good, and it would be hard to replicate. I'd say something in the low to mid 6s would be easily doable and a reasonable position for disposal later, so in the $1,450 neighborhood, maximum. That same 2BR at, say, Saratoga in a Standard 2BR villa during late winter/early spring (our preferred time in Florida) is 299 DVC points. If you owned Grand Floridian points (the cheapest dues in WDW DVC resorts) that's close to $2,100, minimum.

It only goes up from there as you switch to more point-heavy resorts or own at a resort with higher dues.

It sounds like I may be getting both before this all shakes out.

Sure looks that way to me. Enjoy it! The real benefit of owning timeshre is that vacation becomes a priority rather than something you fit in around other things. It's not really about saving money. Yes, you probably save money vs. renting the exact same lodging on the open market, but you are also probably going to vacation more often and stay in nicer units than you would have if left to your own devices. And, that's what money is for: spending.

 

[RoseGold]

I’ve rented or booked cash at three different timeshares in the same system, which are incredibly nice. I decided to pass buying because of the general timeshare model. I just don’t see these products appealing to a younger audience. Timeshares seem so old fashioned. It feels like the whole plan is dying IMO.

Disney is the notable exception IMO because of the die hard Disney fans and the very narrow scope of DVC. But even DVC has shown recently that it is willing to piss off those fans. If DIsney doesn’t bring back APs or DVC does some money grab like a new beach resort, I plan to sell.

I’ll rent, and I own a ton of DVC. But I plan to be completely out in less than ten years and just rent or stay Airbnb. The timeshares I’m interested in can be rented on redweek or have significant cash availability (Hyatt) and that’s enough for me.

 

[Dyefrog]

I really like this summary. It pretty much says it all. If you want to vacation at WDW on a regular basis (I would say once a year or maybe once every other year) for quite a few years to come and stay on-site in a Deluxe room, DVC is probably the way to go. Otherwise, I would vote for the Marriott timeshare (we have DVC and Marriott, I can't speak to WBC.).

Over the years, I've found that the quality of most of the Marriott resorts/room accommodations are better than most of the DVC accommodations. So, if you are trying to compare the quality of accommodations between DVC and Marriott, my experience says Marriott wins this comparison.

In regards to swapping points, with our Marriott TS, we usually bank our week into Interval International and then do exchanges through there. Like any timeshare, the further in advance you can book, the better. If we are doing a shorter-notice trip to the Orlando area, I usually find that it's easier to find a Marriott room available than a DVC room. If you travel during any of the "busy/popular" DVC times, you need to be booking your room at the 11 month mark. Booking short-notice trips with DVC can be challenging and sometimes next to impossible (there are fewer and fewer "slow" seasons at WDW, so it's getting harder and harder to book short notice trips).

The value of DVC, IMO, really is staying on-site in a Deluxe room at WDW and not have to worry about the ever-increasing room rate increases (with no increase in benefits). For example: A 1br villa at the Boardwalk Villas goes for about $718 a night (in late Aug). A 2br at Marriott's Royal Palms (close to Disney Springs) for the same time frame goes for about $250 a night. I've stayed in both and if just comparing the rooms themselves, IMO, Royal Palms wins hands-down (even if I was comparing it to a 2br at BWV, my opinion would be the same).

But if we stay at the Royal Palms, we have to rent a car and drive to and from the parks ourselves every day (dealing with traffic and the WDW parking lots). If we are staying at the BWV, we can walk to 2 of the parks and take Disney transportation to the other two. Not having to worry about the driving helps me to be able to disconnect from the "real world" during my vacation a little easier (the Disney-bubble effect) and there is value in that to me. Not everyone finds value in this, so that is something you will have to determine for yourself.

Good stuff, thank you.
As far as the exchanges go:

• Is there a cost to join II? My understanding is that with DVC, membership is included.
• Is there a cost to exchange points to another property?
• What "level" of ownership is comparable to the accommodations and flexibility of DVC?
• How many points in the Marriot system would be comparable to 200 points at DVC?
• I've seen on the Wyndham site that they have a dedicated exit service to alleviate my fears of contract purgatory. Does Marriot offer the same and have you had any experience with either?

Trying to cover all the ancillary costs that may differ from DVC after contract and MF's.

 

[Dyefrog]

I am not sure this is true aside from the recent run-up in resale prices. I recall looking at DVC prices a few years ago, prior to the pandemic, and it seemed that they rose in constant dollars but lagged inflation somewhat. I will bet big that prices will not keep pace with inflation for 2042 resorts with a time horizon more than ten years. I am not sure what happens to the other resort resale prices as the 2042 resorts are re-flagged and (presumably) withdrawn from resale access. Maybe they keep up, maybe they don't.

Either way, if real appreciation is a necessary component of your purchase decision, I suspect you are trying to talk yourself into it. And, you don't really have to do that. Just buy it if you want it for you or for your family; it's fine. That's because I also think about timeshare purchases differently. I assume that the value of a timeshare will be negligible when I come to dispose of it, and ask if whether amortizing the purchase price at a reasonable ROI plus MFs is less than I might pay in rent for the same unit over, say, a 10 year horizon. If so, the purchase is worth getting no matter what the disposal value is---and if it is non-trivial, that's just a bonus. DVC generally passes this test purchased resale vs. renting from Disney at a prevailing discount, and usually passes vs. renting from an owner.

I am not sure why I assume zero value. It could be because timeshares in general work this way so that's the rut I'm in. It could be because I tend to be conservative in large discretionary purchases and try to err on the side of not making them. Or it could be some other reason that my analyst and I will eventually uncover.

I can't speak to the Marriott use cases, fee comparisons, etc. because I don't own it and never seriously considered buying, so I've not done my homework there. I'd strongly recommend hanging around the TUG Marriott forums for that.

For Wyndham, the carrying costs are definitely lower. A 2BR Prime week at Bonnet Creek is 224K points. If you owned their blended-trust product resale ($7.57/K), your cost in fees for that week would be just shy of $1,700. And the blended-trust product is at best average, and probably a little worse than average. For comparison, my overall rate is much lower. Mine is unusually good, and it would be hard to replicate. I'd say something in the low to mid 6s would be easily doable and a reasonable position for disposal later, so in the $1,450 neighborhood, maximum. That same 2BR at, say, Saratoga in a Standard 2BR villa during late winter/early spring (our preferred time in Florida) is 299 DVC points. If you owned Grand Floridian points (the cheapest dues in WDW DVC resorts) that's close to $2,100, minimum.

It only goes up from there as you switch to more point-heavy resorts or own at a resort with higher dues.


Sure looks that way to me. Enjoy it! The real benefit of owning timeshre is that vacation becomes a priority rather than something you fit in around other things. It's not really about saving money. Yes, you probably save money vs. renting the exact same lodging on the open market, but you are also probably going to vacation more often and stay in nicer units than you would have if left to your own devices. And, that's what money is for: spending.

Agree, I'm baffled how the 2042's are holding their value. My plan was to sell before the 15 years to go mark which with CCV (2053) would be my daughters problem. I do think thought that the 30 year+ remaining resorts will continue to outpace inflation based on the current construction at Orlando (VGF) and the continued popularity in spite of Covid and Disney greed. The wildcards as I see it are:

• Appreciation rate of contracts
• Rate of inflation and how it affects MF's
• Supply and demand specifically at DVC Orlando. As I interpret the consensus from the pro's that have responded, that seems to be the catalyst responsible for such impressive appreciation of late rather than manipulation from Disney ROFR.

The value to own vs. rent for me is there at DVC. I've done extensive spreadsheets and analytics that if my travel plans go as expected, it's a big win. So much so that I'm entertaining the World of Marriot or Wyndham or Hilton to help meet demand. Partner just met with her accountant who is all in on timeshares, vacation clubs, cruises and owns DVC and some others for the past 20 years and she still loves it. This was a huge hurdle as she was skeptical of the lack of flexibility. I think all the disasters and nightmares that I've seen posted on YouTube are a result of naive victims entering the lions den wrapped in sirloin. If you know what you're doing and have the time/energy/finances, it seems like it can be well worth it. My biggest fear was the exit strategy which it appears is a non-issue.
I'm finally at that point in my life so will probably start with baby steps. Maybe rent some points first as @RoseGold suggests. Try before I buy.
Thank you all. Now who gets the commission check?

Brian, can I ask why you chose Wyndham over Marriot? Also,
"I'd say something in the low to mid 6s would be easily doable and a reasonable position for disposal later, so in the $1,450 neighborhood, maximum."
Is the mid 6s referencing the cost of the contract as in $6,500 and the $1,450 the annual MF?

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

The housekeepers the day of checkout is one I always have to warn people about. That’s not a great feeling for such an expensive product.

We've never experienced this. I would be ticked off as well. I hope it's not a very common issue.

 

[MICKIMINI]

If the timeshare is the car and the MF's are the gas...I have a bunch of cars (DVC) and don't need more cars, but need more gas (points)! A week at OKW in a 1 BR in October is 208 points. To buy another car (OKW) is conservatively 25K plus closing when all I want is more gas... I have three DVC contracts now in ROFR for about 20K, but there is a limit.

Buying a week or two that is flexible for time and size of villa for a few cents (per Brian) and then just paying MF's for a few extra weeks a year makes sense. Using it up and selling for a few bucks or giving it back after 10 years is fine. Buying the right resort is the big decision, not the small buy in or even MF's.

Our son and DIL were married at the #1 Marriott Hotel - Wentworth By The Sea and I can tell you, it was over the top stunning and several nights accommodations, meals and service, especially for our international guests was perfect. I can see why Marriott gets so much attention!

Great thread and thanks to all for the insight!

 

[MICKIMINI]

We've never experienced this. I would be ticked off as well. I hope it's not a very common issue.

It's happened to us when we were hosting family in a 3 BR GV at OKW. It started before 10 am and they just hung around the front door. I was NOT happy.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

It's happened to us when we were hosting family in a 3 BR GV at OKW. It started before 10 am and they just hung around the front door. I was NOT happy.

Did you have the privacy sing up? We always leave it on the door handle, I wonder if that makes a difference.

 

[mousehouse23]

This is an interesting thread to me, as we're considering purchasing a legacy/week contract at a low-MF Marriott resort, then using the II exchange for a mix of Marriott/DVC (likely SSR or OKW) stays. Since we mainly travel during January and February, I think it's a great way to avoid the large initial investment that DVC demands. (We do have one resale DVC contract already.)

I guess my hang-up is the week-long stay requirement. It's my understanding that you can't break up that week, unless it's at your home resort. That's the one thing that's giving me pause, as it doesn't allow for much flexibility.