Weird letter

[Karin1984]

Using your analogy: You offer your kids $50 to take out the trash, and they rush in and say, “Sign me up!” Easy money, right? So they start the job, but quickly realize the trash has garbage in it. It stinks so bad when they move it they start to gag and vomit. Nonetheless, they try to finish the job. Then one of the bags breaks and putrid contents spill all over the floor, which you expect will be cleaned up (for that kind of money). Wait! Are those maggots? OMG! [barf again] Once they gather their wits, they reluctantly begin to clean - but, oops, something sharp was in the garbage and one just got stuck with it; now he’s bleeding. Will this require an ER visit? Will it get infected? Ugh! The other one can’t take it any more and runs off, not to be seen at the “job site” again. One is left, literally, holding the bag. What’s he going to say to you next time you want him to take out your trash? ”You can’t pay me enough to do that job!”

And that is how a lot of people feel right now.

That's a better analogy.
And yeah, I would rather get a lower paid job than a high paid job in a hospital. I am sure technically I can do it, but the cons of the work itself, nope, it won't be for me.

 

[PezRuth]

Why is it unreasonable for hospitals to be expected to bring on staff to deal with this, if staff need more pay and better conditions, don't they already have unions ? I just don't get giving these businesses a pass, hop-scotching over the issue and sliding to the conclusion. We are talking about human beings. I just can't get onboard & that's ok, but I dissent, there are solutions and maybe not mine some somewhere they exist.

I just left working at a hospital (not in a nursing role). Weekly there was an assault (verbal or physical) on a staff member mostly nursing. The biggest issue at my hospital has actually been patients' families and not necessarily patients. Just bringing in more staff does not solve the problem. First as others have said where are they going to get the staff? Patients and their families need to have a role in this. The horrible things I have heard patients and their families say to providers and staff is just awful.

 

[Southernmiss]

I asked our son an ER tech in our local hospital (a very low grunt work job) a few of the questions posed here.

The employees get abused by non psych patients at least once a shift.
And unions are not a thing in healthcare all over the country. They're mostly in the North East.

Despite the working conditions, it has solidified his desire to go into medicine to help people. He's starts med school in August.

 

[focusondisney]

I’m sure this code of conduct isn’t geared to dementia patients. Or the elderly patient with that uncontrolled UTI confusion. Those patients will continue to be treated with compassion. We’ve all seen the social media videos of entitled, angry people in stores & coffee shops. Those same people act like that in health care facilities too. And they treat the health care staff the same way they treat the fast food workers. Those are the people these kind of messages are meant for. As a recently retired RN, I would appreciate an employer trying to be proactive in addressing these issues. Of course, the people who think they can treat anyone like that won’t read the code of conduct or won’t think it applies to them. These are the kind of people who assume the health care system has to take care of them no matter what. So the hospital will have something written to refer back them back to when they get “kicked out”.

 

[GAN]

I asked our son an ER tech in our local hospital (a very low grunt work job) a few of the questions posed here.

The employees get abused by non psych patients at least once a shift.
And unions are not a thing in healthcare all over the country. They're mostly in the North East.

Despite the working conditions, it has solidified his desire to go into medicine to help people. He's starts med school in August.

Right. It's the people who are sane ....but just plain crazy!

 

[focusondisney]

In my first post ( at the very bottom) I offered what is, to me, the simple solution of facilities hiring many more staff whose sole purpose is mental health care and evaluation and management if restraint of some kind is necessary. This may or may not be a solution but it would seem these facilities are both the best well placed and have the highest contact rate with the at risk populations, not to mention they have the countries ear more often than not.

I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but I need to address this. We have 2 major health systems in our area. The one I retired from has 5 hospitals, the other has 3 hospitals plus both have multiple outpatient facilities. Each system is hundreds of positions short. Hundreds. Both systems have been trying to fill these positions since before the pandemic. Things have been exponentially worse the last 2+ years. Hiring bonuses are offered & pay scales have increased a lot. And they are still hundreds of positions short. Hiring more staff is NOT a simple solution. A simple solution is for people to treat each other with respect & as we would like to be treated.

After 44 years of working in multiple positions in a very inner city hospital, I can guarantee this wasn’t started because of mentally ill or homeless patients. Those patients have always been & will continue to be treated with compassion. The same entitled people that are now being rude & abusive to fast food workers, grocery clerks, Disney CMs & other guests are acting the same way to health care workers. And the “ I paid a lot of money” excuse is used at health care facilities just like it’s used at Disney. Those are the people this is needed for. Not the homeless or mentally ill.

The simple solution is for people to behave themselves like civilized humans should.

edit to add: restraints are a whole category of there own. There are very specific legal regulations that must be followed if they are needed. And facilities already follow them to the letter.

 

[PezRuth]

I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but I need to address this. We have 2 major health systems in our area. The one I retired from has 5 hospitals, the other has 3 hospitals plus both have multiple outpatient facilities. Each system is hundreds of positions short. Hundreds. Both systems have been trying to fill these positions since before the pandemic. Things have been exponentially worse the last 2+ years. Hiring bonuses are offered & pay scales have increased a lot. And they are still hundreds of positions short. Hiring more staff is NOT a simple solution. A simple solution is for people to treat each other with respect & as we would like to be treated.

After 44 years of working in multiple positions in a very inner city hospital, I can guarantee this wasn’t started because of mentally I’ll or homeless patients. Those patients have always been & will continue to be treated with compassion. The same entitled people that are now being rude & abusive to fast food workers, grocery clerks, Disney CMs & other guests are acting the same way to health care workers. And the “ I paid a lot of money” excuse is used at health care facilities just like it’s used at Disney. Those are the people this is needed for. Not the homeless or mentally ill.

The simple solution is for people to behave themselves like civilized humans should.

edit to add: restraints are a whole category of there own. There are very specific legal regulations that must be followed if they are needed. And facilities already follow them to the letter.

Every single thing you said here. And with restraints there are not only very specific legal regulations but lots and lots and lots of training and education that goes to staff. Your comment about the simple solution being for people to behave themselves is exactly right.

 

[dez1978]

I've said it a lot but when speaking about employment in general there's a certain level you're willing to deal with (although verbal and physical assault should never be you're just willing to deal with) when the work environment can counteract that. The current work environment for many lessens this ability to do

If we’re talking about verbal/physical assault from a”normal” person, you are correct. No one should be willing to accept that at work. However, there are jobs that you do in fact, have to be willing to deal with that, and if you can’t, recognize it’s not the job for you. If you work with patients who are seriously mentally ill, it’s going to happen. And there isn’t much to be done about it. Caregivers can watch for the signs and try to de-escalate the situation but many times it’s just not avoidable. And it sucks for everyone involved, including the patient.

Sorry. I guess I’m on a thing with this mental health bit because I’ve been one of those employees. And I’ve seen coworkers get viciously attacked and I’ve seen those patients and know that most of the time it’s nothing the patient can control it would have chosen to do. There is a ton of turnover in those positions bc very few realize what they are getting into. But there are also a lot of people who have been working there for years and keep doing it because they care, even knowing the risk.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

If we’re talking about verbal/physical assault from a”normal” person, you are correct. No one should be willing to accept that at work. However, there are jobs that you do in fact, have to be willing to deal with that, and if you can’t, recognize it’s not the job for you. If you work with patients who are seriously mentally ill, it’s going to happen. And there isn’t much to be done about it. Caregivers can watch for the signs and try to de-escalate the situation but many times it’s just not avoidable. And it sucks for everyone involved, including the patient.

Sorry. I guess I’m on a thing with this mental health bit because I’ve been one of those employees. And I’ve seen coworkers get viciously attacked and I’ve seen those patients and know that most of the time it’s nothing the patient can control it would have chosen to do. There is a ton of turnover in those positions bc very few realize what they are getting into. But there are also a lot of people who have been working there for years and keep doing it because they care, even knowing the risk.

I think you missed one of my first comments on the thread. I addressed what you're talking about, I do understand where you're coming from

 

[EilonwyWanderer]

If you've ever worked in customer service in ANY industry you have dealt with abusive jerks. What can make or break it is how management handles it and if they have your back. I remember when I was young and had my first job they actually sent us to customer service training (we worked on the phones) and the trainer told us that if a customer started swearing at you or verbally abusing you in any way you could say something like "Sir, if you do not stop using language like that I will terminate the call." And then if they continued you could terminate the call! We were all so thrilled because we OFTEN had people saying just the worst things ever at us. Get back to the office enthused and then our supervisor told us we were NEVER to hang up on a caller EVER.

I didn't stay in that job longer than I had to. Now I manage people, some of whom are part of groups that historically have faced a lot of abuse, and they know that if anyone EVER makes them feel uncomfortable they can leave/hang up on them and go right to me and I will handle it.

While it's sad that a company would have to issue such a common sense statement for how you should treat another human being with respect, it's necessary not only to make sure that people who might otherwise act out are warned there will be consequences, but it also tells the employees that they are valued and that (at least in theory) the higher ups are listening and have their backs if they have to make a tough call.

 

[focusondisney]

Worker shortages are a fallacy. The idea of workforce shortages is a complete fallacy that is offered as an explanation for poor working conditions when employers don't want to accept a shift towards the employees benefit. If I offer my kids $50 to take out the trash there would be a race, I'd have 2 takers, but, if I offer a brownie and maybe it has a pile fur-ball in it and no-one shows up is there a shortage or poor compensation. I would offer the compensation does not match the task.

The only shortages that exist are shortages of hardworking decent people willing to do monumental heart-wrenching work for pennies while athletes make millions a year, it's football season and all week most people are reminded about how special they ain't, it's tough to ignore.

If healthcare workers & teachers etc were to be paid decent wages with appropriate supports, enough to absorb life and ensure safety, there would be people lined out the door. It is the operation of supply and demand where supply shrinks as benefit shrinks and supply grows as benefit grows. If Food A price goes up fewer people will buy and similarly, if wages go down, fewer people will sell their effort. The caveat shows in variables, such as where people will endure less $ with better benefits (such as civil workers with pension & great med coverage) or maybe a prestigious job that could spark a better next step (non paid college internships or working for a big name) and also similarly, people will pay more if there is a holiday in play or something else extra that tips the scales towards purchasing.

With workers, they can be paid more or their experiences can be improved as a form of added benefit, but asking more of them and paying less does not result in a shortage the way most people are thinking.

OMG I can’t even believe I’m reading this. Have you EVER worked in health care???? You have no idea what you’re talking about. Even before the pandemic, there was a nursing shortage & talk of it getting worse because of the huge number of baby boomers who would be retiring when? Yes, right about now. I get your point about better pay will help with worker shortages. In general. But that only goes so far.

First, not everyone is cut out to work in health care. And money won’t keep people who aren’t cut out for it. You really need to want & be cut out for this career. Imagine those “Karen” type people going into nursing for the money. The abuse they throw at service people will get thrown at patients & coworkers too. Not the kind of person I’d want taking care of my loved ones. Second, you do realize it takes years of schooling to be a nurse, social worker or mental health professional? And then there are licensing exams to pass. Most people don’t realize just how hard nursing school is. It’s very hard. Many people don’t make it thru nursing school & many others don’t pass those boards. I’ve seen up to half a nursing class not make it thru. It’s not like hospitals can go down to the corner & just pick anyone up & ask if they want a nursing job. So even throwing money at it won’t make more nurses available. Third, even if you pass nursing school & boards, I’ve seen many nurses leave after just a short time because they’re just not cut out for it.

Try working nights, weekends, holidays year after year. Then throw in a pandemic when you’ve put your life & your family’s health at risk with an unknown disease. To say nothing of the wear & tear toll nursing & care giving normally takes on your body. Nursing has one of the highest rates of on the job injuries. It’s hard to stay in this profession for years.

Now if you want to know where money should be going.... it’s into nursing schools & nursing instructors. Well before the pandemic there was a shortage of instructors, leading to restricted admissions to nursing schools. There were many news stories about it. So that has added to the current nursing shortage considerably.

Right now there is no quick answer to hospital staffing shortages. More money isn’t the answer now. Our hospital networks have been recruiting for years, offering sign on bonuses hasn’t helped. The hospital system I retired from this spring just finalized a new 3 year contract with its 6000 + workers. It includes $2-3 dollar increases right off the bat, the best raises they’ve ever given on top of those increases, bonus pay for picking up extra shifts that will have the hospital‘s nursing staff making almost as much as traveler nurses, increases in retirement plans and creation of hundreds more positions. The hospital says they can’t afford this contract, but is lobbying the state for increased funding. Everyone acknowledges it will take years to get those new positions filled. Because there is a very real worker shortage. The answer now is for hospital systems to do everything they can to keep the staff they have. And protecting them from abusive patients & visitors is a good place to start.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

trainer told us that if a customer started swearing at you or verbally abusing you in any way you could say something like "Sir, if you do not stop using language like that I will terminate the call." And then if they continued you could terminate the call! We were all so thrilled because we OFTEN had people saying just the worst things ever at us. Get back to the office enthused and then our supervisor told us we were NEVER to hang up on a caller EVER.

Yeah that sort of thing sucks. While I never had to do it I did have the ability to disconnect a call on an agent (I primarily dealt with those at the insurance company) if they got bad. You had to give warnings though first. There was however a no-call list basically agents who lost the privilege of calling the service center for any reason. They could put in non-phone requests but could not call. It took a lot to get you there but it happened for some. My main issue at the insurance company was every supervisor was different and had different rules. The consistency was lacking. I mean tell me how I am supposed to do my best when I've had 9 supervisors in 11 months because many of them leaving for other companies or leaving for a different position within the company and then shift bids occurring which put me on a different team. You had supervisors that you needed to essentially ask to go to the bathroom (you were timed on this and had to put on your screen's notepad going to the bathroom, going to the fax machine, etc) ones that said they never wanted to take an escalation call on a $10 late fee so you better waive it and others that would mark you down on performance IF you did waive the fee and so on.

Back in my retail days I remember getting the "I'm going to get you fired" when I declined an expired coupon. And people are just worse these days IMO so who knows what stuff they are saying.

 

[focusondisney]

And if those unions went on strike to get better pay and better working conditions, how would you feel about all the people not getting care then?

I feel like we'd all just be on a slightly different thread.

I doubt that would happen, schools rarely strike as it is an essential service, the institutions usually bend and they cooperate.

Yes, hospital workers can & do go on strike.

https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/labor-strikes-healthcare-workers-2022/626965/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Mercy_Hospital_strike

 

[Karin1984]

Same here in Europe. It's rare for health care workers to sstrike as they usually think their job is more important than the pay or benefits. But it has happened here in the Netherlands that the GPs were on strike (I had an eye issue that day and had to go to the hospital) and the UK is facing quite a big strike of their nurses union., right this moment

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Strikes have been brought up.

Please read this article (which only scratches the surface) about an epic 10 month strike here in MA recently, and why.

https://newrepublic.com/article/164950/st-vincent-hospital-nurses-strike

(And while reading, think back to, “You can’t pay me enough to do that job”. Nothing is worse for a nurse than to not be able to provide the care to patients that they need to provide because there’s not enough help. I’ve been a nurse since the 80s, and I’m being honest when I say that the patient of the 80s is almost unrecognizable from the patient of today. Numerous comorbidities exist and have to be addressed, and at the same time, technology has exploded, so today’s patients can be very complicated both in what they have done, and what has to be done for them while hospitalized - things that are tightly regulated. Correct staffing numbers are critical to this care. And what we are seeing today is that there are unprecedented problems with staffing. It’s a huge problem not just locally or nationwide, but worldwide.)

After WWII we saw massive nursing shortages because women realized during the war that they could do other jobs that weren’t as demanding so they left the profession in droves, and others stayed away from going into it, as well, because, well, the hours and pay were awful as well as the work load. We then spent many decades trying to figure out how to fix that. Today we have plenty of new nurses, finally, but they get in and see what the job entails and many leave before they really even get started. Hospitals invest a lot of time and money in getting a new nurse trained and up and running only to see them leave after a year or two only to go back to school or somehow find a job that’s easier. I hear their conversations all the time. Replacing them with travel nurses who don’t know the systems and can be hot or cold, isn’t a good long term solution to the problem. One of the best solutions to the problem, besides improved pay, is correct staffing levels. But getting them is challenging everywhere for a bunch of reasons. It makes me really sad to see this, as I’ve loved being a nurse, and I worry about what’s going to happen in the future - or having to be hospitalized while things are like this.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...riage-tents-in-parking-lots-to-ease-er-burden

 

[Southernmiss]

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...riage-tents-in-parking-lots-to-ease-er-burden

The last 2 paragraphs.

For those who do still end up getting sick and heading for a medical professional, Sharieff pleaded for kindness. No one, she said, wants a return to the backlash against health care workers that flared in 2021.

“Everyone is already tired and, like, why would I come in and work extra shifts if I’m gonna get yelled at?” Sharieff said.

 

[kanne323]

Worker shortages are a fallacy. The idea of workforce shortages is a complete fallacy that is offered as an explanation for poor working conditions when employers don't want to accept a shift towards the employees benefit. If I offer my kids $50 to take out the trash there would be a race, I'd have 2 takers, but, if I offer a brownie and maybe it has a pile fur-ball in it and no-one shows up is there a shortage or poor compensation. I would offer the compensation does not match the task.

The only shortages that exist are shortages of hardworking decent people willing to do monumental heart-wrenching work for pennies while athletes make millions a year, it's football season and all week most people are reminded about how special they ain't, it's tough to ignore.

If healthcare workers & teachers etc were to be paid decent wages with appropriate supports, enough to absorb life and ensure safety, there would be people lined out the door. It is the operation of supply and demand where supply shrinks as benefit shrinks and supply grows as benefit grows. If Food A price goes up fewer people will buy and similarly, if wages go down, fewer people will sell their effort. The caveat shows in variables, such as where people will endure less $ with better benefits (such as civil workers with pension & great med coverage) or maybe a prestigious job that could spark a better next step (non paid college internships or working for a big name) and also similarly, people will pay more if there is a holiday in play or something else extra that tips the scales towards purchasing.

With workers, they can be paid more or their experiences can be improved as a form of added benefit, but asking more of them and paying less does not result in a shortage the way most people are thinking.

No. Worker shortages in health care (and teaching, but I can only personally speak for health care) are not a fallacy. There has been a mass exodus of health care professionals over the past few year. Burnout and compassion fatigue are at al all time high. An unimaginable amount of health care professionals have been through trauma. More money or better working conditions could not have changed what has happened the last few years. There was a shortage of many health care professions prior to the pandemic, but it has gotten so much worse. The health care world also lost a lot of professionals who died of covid or became so ill they could no longer work in the field.

I'm a HCP who left the hospital in August after about 20 years... and am now working in hospice. It's less emotionally taxing, if that tells you anything.