Weeding out the bad seeds

[mjkacmom]

I don't know - my neighborhood is very safe. The only crime I've ever heard of in this neighborhood is the occasional pumpkin theft at Halloween and a couple of middle schoolers who broke a few windows with rocks one night. No break-ins or anything like that. But that doesn't mean I want anyone to be able to enter my back yard unless I want them there, so the gates stay locked unless we need them to be open. We have our dogs in the backyard for a while each day, and got the locks primarily to protect them. An added benefit was that while my son played out there I didn't have to worry about him getting out or anyone else getting in.

Everyone I've known who had a fenced backyard kept their gates locked. What's the point of having a fence if anyone can just come along and open the gate? Locking the gate doesn't seem any stranger to me than locking the front door.

I have never even heard of locking fence doors. We have a 4 foot picket fence, so no sense in locking it, but most of the neighbors have fences, and none are locked.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

I'm coming into this discussion a bit late, but as a parent of 10 and 9 yo's, I can feel your pain, OP...

I am obsessive about stranger danger. It's almost restrictive. I'll be the first to admit that so her disregarding my instructions for my child not going to the park alone really upsets me. There's no reason for that - they did not have to go.

I also have some issues about stranger danger. As a child in second grade I had an incident where I got off the bus alone (typically there were other kids dropped off at the front of the cul-de-sac but that day there was only me). A guy in a red convertible pulled up beside me and asked me if he could drive me to my house. I said no and started walking to my house. He followed and asked again. At this point I cut across the front lawn of the neighbor's house and walked behind their house to hide from him.

I never saw him again, but I absolutely remember that incident and because of it I operate from the assumption that while my kids need to have freedom, I also need to minimize opportunities for something bad to happen to them. Criminals are opportunists-they look for an opportunity to take a kid (I got off the bus alone-unusual).

So I try and balance the reality that my kids are at risk if they're alone with not creating an atmosphere of fear for them. So they have rules about travelling together and letting me know if they change location BEFORE they change location.

We had a backfire recently; I bought the kids walkie-talkies so they can walk to a friend's house and I can keep in touch with them if I need to-we have a very secure community where the houses are close together, we know everyone on our street, and there's only one way in and out so I am becoming more confident about letting them explore. So, I let the girls take the dog around the block to test out how the WT's worked. We chatted the entire way and as they came back around the corner (in my line of sight) some strange guy came on and said "You should be very afraid of walking around by yourself, I will come to get you!".

My ten year old absolutely freaked out. I spent a lot of time explaining to her that WT's were not like phones, that it was an open line that anyone could talk on within a radius of ten miles, and that guy had no idea where we were or who we were. I did realize that it was important if we were talking on the WT's not to give identifying locations, though.

Unfortunately, my ten year old now will not even touch the WT's and is scared to go outside, so we have to replace the memory of the bad incident with some good incidents with the WT's so she'll be okay with them. Younger DD9 thought it was funny (two girls with totally different personalities-it's a challenge). On the one hand, it was a good object lesson that there ARE strange men out there (I actually think it was a teenager being funny on the WT, btw), but I need to balance it with not locking yourself in a house to stay safe.

Thanks for your ideas everyone. I tend to talk too much when uncomfortable and explain myself. This is a situation where I think I need to reel it in and keep it short, vague and to the point.

I always remember the line Chili Palmer used in the movie "Get Shorty": "Say as little as you can, if that." I seriously have to tell myself this all the time. It helps. I'm getting to the point now where I realize that I don't need to explain myself (or defend myself) to people. My boundaries are my decision.

OT: As to the bolded part, I wish we could do that! They would laugh me out of the school office if I told them who my child was allowed to be in class with.

Both schools that we attended have a no-bullying clause that allows you to request that your child not be put with another kid. You can't request to BE in another kid's class, but you can request that they be kept apart. If you bring up bullying concerns (and it sounds like OP's kid is hanging out with a bully-in-training), most schools with anti-bullying policies will listen.

I know the statistics and I know it doesn't happen often but when I think of the parents that allowed their 7 or 8 year old daughters walk to their friends houses unattended only to never see them again it reminds me why I am the way I am...(and I would bet those parents would give anything to go back in time..)

To the OP dont apologize to anyone on this board for the type of mother you are....if more were like you the world would be safer for our kids in my opinion.

My kids are 8 and 5, they are not allowed outside by themselves, ever. I dont think its that big of a deal to grab a book and sit outside while your kids play.

When my kids were that age they were always within line-of-sight. It didn't hurt them and I needed it for my comfort.

So... Although you asked for advice in your opening post, you're going to rip into everyone who disagrees with your position?

In answer to your questions, Your anger is misplaced because you've known for quite some time that the other parents didn't share your ideas of supervision yet you continue to allow your son over there. At seven, your son is old enough to know the rules and follow them.
Ugh, Let's see, if my child refused a cigarette, yes I would be proud of them and yes, I would be angry with the adult who offered it. My child would no longer be allowed at that house. Smoking for a minor is illegal while playing at the park isn't. Surely you can see the difference.

What's confusing? If I consider the other parents to be negligent then my child is not allowed in situations where that parent is in charge. However, I understand that my child will be put in the position to make a decision to follow our rules or not...I want her to be responsible for herself. In our family, a seven year old would be expected to honor a few basic rules, things like, no R rated movies or no going to the park alone.

You must not have kids. Any seven year old I know will absolutely cave to an adult telling them to do something they know is counter to the rules of their parents, especially if the parents are not there to back them up. That's why kids don't make decisions, adults do.

The OP is not talking about legality, she's talking about rules that she stated and the neighbor verbally agreed to, then ignored. It's not the kid's job to say "I'm not allowed to watch those kinds of movies", it's the neighbor's job to honor the OP's rules or at least let the mom know "I'm going to do this, if your kid comes over, he'll be participating."

And frankly, I didn't see any "ripping" from the OP, only from you. She's struggling with a situation that requires her to exert authority, and many of us in real life struggle with being as assertive as we are on message boards .

Also, growing up, my circle of friends was my biggest influence. I also looked for kids that liked the same things I did (joined the school newspaper, drama club, etc.), and I found a good group of friends. I also have clear memories of dropping friends because of their habits (having sex, smoking). I don't have any intention of guinea pigging my kids with bad kids to try and help the bad kids, it's not going to make my kids any better, it's just going to teach them that hanging out with people that do bad stuff is ok. I'm not the bad kid's parent, I'm not going to go all martyr and try and "fix" them at my childrens' expense...

I think there has been a ton of great advice on this thread about how to cool off the relationship, it's the implementing it that will be a challenge. Good luck, OP...

 

[surfgirl]

I don't have any intention of guinea pigging my kids with bad kids to try and help the bad kids

what does 'guinea pigging' mean ?

From context, I assume it means ... saddling/making someone do something they don't want to ?

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

what does 'guinea pigging' mean ?

From context, I assume it means ... saddling/making someone do something they don't want to ?

It means using your kid to help improve something that's bad; like, I'm not pulling my kid out of that failing school because he'll help to bring up the grades-we call that "guinea-pigging" your kid.

Or, if you buy a house in a transitional neighborhood you're the guinea pigs. We've done that, too. It sucked, don't ever buy a house in a "transitional neighborhood"-it never transitions the right way .

Historically, guinea pigs were often used in pre-human experimental trials (now they use rats, rabbits and mice because genetically we're more similar than guinea pigs).

 

[mrsbornkuntry]

I have never even heard of locking fence doors. We have a 4 foot picket fence, so no sense in locking it, but most of the neighbors have fences, and none are locked.

About the fence locking...I had to take a fire safety class where I used to live and they recommend not doing that because then your child can't escape the back yard if they have to go out that way. You can't guarantee that you will be with them (what if you pass out or are trapped) or that they will be able to get to the key or have the presence of mind to get it. I think I would only lock the fence if my child could easily scale it, in which case it would probably be pointless anyway.

 

[mrsbornkuntry]

I'm coming into this discussion a bit late, but as a parent of 10 and 9 yo's, I can feel your pain, OP...





You must not have kids. Any seven year old I know will absolutely cave to an adult telling them to do something they know is counter to the rules of their parents, especially if the parents are not there to back them up. That's why kids don't make decisions, adults do.

The OP is not talking about legality, she's talking about rules that she stated and the neighbor verbally agreed to, then ignored. It's not the kid's job to say "I'm not allowed to watch those kinds of movies", it's the neighbor's job to honor the OP's rules or at least let the mom know "I'm going to do this, if your kid comes over, he'll be participating."

And frankly, I didn't see any "ripping" from the OP, only from you. She's struggling with a situation that requires her to exert authority, and many of us in real life struggle with being as assertive as we are on message boards .

Also, growing up, my circle of friends was my biggest influence. I also looked for kids that liked the same things I did (joined the school newspaper, drama club, etc.), and I found a good group of friends. I also have clear memories of dropping friends because of their habits (having sex, smoking). I don't have any intention of guinea pigging my kids with bad kids to try and help the bad kids, it's not going to make my kids any better, it's just going to teach them that hanging out with people that do bad stuff is ok. I'm not the bad kid's parent, I'm not going to go all martyr and try and "fix" them at my childrens' expense...

I think there has been a ton of great advice on this thread about how to cool off the relationship, it's the implementing it that will be a challenge. Good luck, OP...

I cut a little of your quote to get to the part I wanted to comment on. All 5 of my kids will absolutely tell an adult that they aren't allowed to do something if it is against my rules and will call me if they need to. When my now 11yo DS was 5 and in pre-k they had a special day where they got candy. He ate one piece and his teacher said "you can eat the rest of your candy" (they were little pieces) and he said "No, my mom only lets me have one piece of candy a day". (this was when I was doling out Halloween candy, lol). I admit this is not the norm with kids, but they can and should be taught to respectfully refuse an adult.

 

[surfgirl]

It means using your kid to help improve something that's bad; like, I'm not pulling my kid out of that failing school because he'll help to bring up the grades-we call that "guinea-pigging" your kid.

Or, if you buy a house in a transitional neighborhood you're the guinea pigs. We've done that, too. It sucked, don't ever buy a house in a "transitional neighborhood"-it never transitions the right way .

Historically, guinea pigs were often used in pre-human experimental trials (now they use rats, rabbits and mice because genetically we're more similar than guinea pigs).

thanks for the quick response. I've heard of the expression as you used it in the 2nd and 3rd paragraph... like a test or trial. just never as a verb : )

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

I cut a little of your quote to get to the part I wanted to comment on. All 5 of my kids will absolutely tell an adult that they aren't allowed to do something if it is against my rules and will call me if they need to. When my now 11yo DS was 5 and in pre-k they had a special day where they got candy. He ate one piece and his teacher said "you can eat the rest of your candy" (they were little pieces) and he said "No, my mom only lets me have one piece of candy a day". (this was when I was doling out Halloween candy, lol). I admit this is not the norm with kids, but they can and should be taught to respectfully refuse an adult.

I agree, it's not the norm. It is very difficult to teach children to be respectful and obedient to adults in some circumstances, and be deliberately disobedient in others.

They just do not have the rational faculties at a young age to parse which orders coming from adults should be discounted and which orders should be followed, and I don't think they should be expected to.

With some very clear exceptions, for example, when the pediatrician (a guy) needs to check the girls' reproductive parts, he clearly states "I am going to check your private parts as part of your annual checkup, your mom is here with you, this is for your health, and you should always make sure your parent is ok with this procedure before anyone checks you." The kids know that NOBODY is allowed to touch them there without me or DH present-no exceptions. I appreciate that the pediatrician explains to them very cleary what/who/why to them-I think all peds should.

In that instance, they know that no matter what an adult is saying to them, they are not disobeying the adult, the adult is disobeying ME.

And we've explained that particular concept to them, as well (when they were younger). I think it's an important distinction you need to make with kids...

 

[zoemurr]

My 5 year old was at a party and when the mom went to pour the soda she replied, "I'm not allowed to have soda, may I have something else?"

I also asked my just turned 8 year old what he would do if he was in your child's place and he said, "I wouldn't go." If I found out he did go he would be in big time serious trouble. Yes, the mother should not have done what she did, but you can't control her. Did you tell your son before you dropped him off that going out alone was not allowed?

I don't think I could/would tell another parent what is allowed at their house. I might ask how they do things and then say "I'm not comfortable with that" and see how it goes from there. My DD is not a strong swimmer, and a friend was having some kids over to swim/sleep over. I know that family doesn't watch the kids in the pool every second, and I was not comfortable with it. I called and told her friend that I was not ok with DD swimming without me there, and that I could bring her later. Her answer was that they would take a very quick swim and get out as soon as she arrived (and they did).

If she asks again why your son can't go over I would just say, "My son doesn't seem to be able to make good choices when he's at your house."

 

[wickywinn]

I see three things:

1) You have every right to control who your kid plays with at seven and who he doesn't. You can just say "no - his family doesn't share our values and we think he is a bad influence" and leave it at that. It is best if you realize this early that every year your ability to control this will be less and less - its almost absolute at two (particularly for a stay at home mom) and pretty much non-existant on their eighteenth birthday. So while you have a lot of control at seven to "just say no" you also want to make sure you are giving your kids good guidance to make decisions when they can and will choose their own friends and activities.

2) The more limits you place on your kids, the fewer things they will "get to" do. This is fine, but you can't expect other kids to stay behind fences if they want to go to the park. There is a young boy in our neighborhood who is very lonely since the other kids his age are allowed to go up to the park without adult supervision (they are nine and ten) and he is not. I believe you have every right to set the rules, but I think you want to look at all the consequences of the rules - the chance of abduction is relatively small. The chance of being an outcast by middle school because of restrictive rules is probably higher - and is damaging to a kid's psyche. My son and I had this interaction earlier this Spring:

"Mom, Ben and I are going up to the park!"
"OK, be home by five."
(He leaves, enters the house two minutes later)
"Mom, can you go to the park with us?"
"No, I'm busy."
"Oh, Andy can't go to the park unless there is an adult."
"Well, I'm not Andy's babysitter. You guys get to decide whether you want to play with Andy in his yard, or go to the park."
"OK, we are going to the park."

Andy is a nice kid, but his attractions are not such that the boys will give up the playground equipment up at the park or riding their bikes through the neighborhood. And so Andy has spent most of his summer playing pretty much alone in his own yard because the other boys have much greater boundries. Andy's Mom is willing to make that trade - and I'm not judging it, just mentioning that there are consequences.

3) While it wouldn't be my priority, some people feel that letting a kid like this into their lives and modeling good behavior for them (playdates at your house), is providing the other kid with something really valuable. I'm not a fan of a good deed at the expense of my kids, but I respect people who do make that choice.

You have some very valid points. You really do. And I think by the time ds7 is 9-10 I will be more comfortable with relaxing the reins so to speak. But, right now, at age 7, I think he's too young. Some might disagree but that's how I feel.

And yes, pickup at his grade school is a nightmare with all the parents meeting the kids at the door.

 

[luvsJack]

That's horrible - I had never thought about the possibility of something like that. Thanks for the warning! Fortunately something like that would not be an issue with a yard like mine but I'll remember it if our next yard is different. I often hear people complaining that their dogs have gotten out (and often have to help catch those dogs) after neighborhood kids open someone's gate to visit their dogs and then forget to close it. With my current yard, that's more of a concern for me since I can't see the gates from the door where I let my dogs out.

Oh, it was so bad and still gives me nightmares! I was trying to get to his house and was on the phone with him and he was crying that he couldn't get to his dogs. Oh, my--still brings tears to my eyes when I think about it.

He thought he was doing right by keeping the fence locked because that way he knew the dogs wouldn't get out and no one could go in where they were.

It made me a lot more aware of having anyone locked in anywhere. I really stop and think "how will they get out or how will I get them out in an emergency?"

 

[wickywinn]

So... Although you asked for advice in your opening post, you're going to rip into everyone who disagrees with your position?

In answer to your questions, Your anger is misplaced because you've known for quite some time that the other parents didn't share your ideas of supervision yet you continue to allow your son over there. At seven, your son is old enough to know the rules and follow them.

Ugh, Let's see, if my child refused a cigarette, yes I would be proud of them and yes, I would be angry with the adult who offered it. My child would no longer be allowed at that house. Smoking for a minor is illegal while playing at the park isn't. Surely you can see the difference.

What's confusing? If I consider the other parents to be negligent then my child is not allowed in situations where that parent is in charge. However, I understand that my child will be put in the position to make a decision to follow our rules or not...I want her to be responsible for herself. In our family, a seven year old would be expected to honor a few basic rules, things like, no R rated movies or no going to the park alone.

So you would be angry if another parent went against your wishes intentionally then. You just answered my question about my misplaced anger then. Thanks!cc

Listen, my child is not inviting himself over to this child's house - that would be rude. They call on a daily basis, several times, begging for me to allow him to come over. I'm not forcing my child and my rules, in regards to my child's safety, on his parents. I respect other parents' beliefs about what is best for their child and I expect the same in return if they want him to come over so badly. No park unsupervised and no R rated movies is not unreasonable I don't think. It has nothing to do with a 7 year old being able to stand up for himself (although I think , in reality, there are alot of 7 yr olds who would be scared to death to go against their friends' parents instructions, in their household, but I guess your kids are strong-willed so good for you!) when the other parent says to go ahead. It has to do with them intentionally sabotaging my rules with my son.

 

[annagirl]

Coming in later than late to this...

My DD had a class bully girl. This child, call her M, was easy to spot as the kid you don't want your child to befriend. Sadly, my DD is one of those people that gets along with everyone and is genuinely nice - so she doesn't get people who can be mean on purpose.

I got M's number when my DD told me this story. DD and M were talking about a toy, something I would not buy for DD. M's advice to DD was to just keep whining to us about it until we gave in and bought it for her.

Yeah - that's M in a nutshell. She always has to be first, get the biggest piece, and does a lot of pouting and stomping if it doesn't go her way. And she's physically bigger than the other girls because she was held back a year (so she's older) and she eats too much so she has weight on her side.



I'm 100% saying just cut all ties with these people. Let your son know why - that neither the boy nor the parents respect your rules. That's why he cannot go over there and the boy is no longer allowed to visit your home. If he's upset about it, tell him you will revisit the idea in a year - say the beginning of next school year, but not before. And that's the end of the subject.

Frankly, a boy who torments cats is not right in the head and I'm thinking a year isn't going to change it. Keep an eye on him - he'll be the neighborhood troublemaker for sure.

Good luck.

 

[wickywinn]

I'm coming into this discussion a bit late, but as a parent of 10 and 9 yo's, I can feel your pain, OP...





I also have some issues about stranger danger. As a child in second grade I had an incident where I got off the bus alone (typically there were other kids dropped off at the front of the cul-de-sac but that day there was only me). A guy in a red convertible pulled up beside me and asked me if he could drive me to my house. I said no and started walking to my house. He followed and asked again. At this point I cut across the front lawn of the neighbor's house and walked behind their house to hide from him.

I never saw him again, but I absolutely remember that incident and because of it I operate from the assumption that while my kids need to have freedom, I also need to minimize opportunities for something bad to happen to them. Criminals are opportunists-they look for an opportunity to take a kid (I got off the bus alone-unusual).

So I try and balance the reality that my kids are at risk if they're alone with not creating an atmosphere of fear for them. So they have rules about travelling together and letting me know if they change location BEFORE they change location.

We had a backfire recently; I bought the kids walkie-talkies so they can walk to a friend's house and I can keep in touch with them if I need to-we have a very secure community where the houses are close together, we know everyone on our street, and there's only one way in and out so I am becoming more confident about letting them explore. So, I let the girls take the dog around the block to test out how the WT's worked. We chatted the entire way and as they came back around the corner (in my line of sight) some strange guy came on and said "You should be very afraid of walking around by yourself, I will come to get you!".

My ten year old absolutely freaked out. I spent a lot of time explaining to her that WT's were not like phones, that it was an open line that anyone could talk on within a radius of ten miles, and that guy had no idea where we were or who we were. I did realize that it was important if we were talking on the WT's not to give identifying locations, though.

Unfortunately, my ten year old now will not even touch the WT's and is scared to go outside, so we have to replace the memory of the bad incident with some good incidents with the WT's so she'll be okay with them. Younger DD9 thought it was funny (two girls with totally different personalities-it's a challenge). On the one hand, it was a good object lesson that there ARE strange men out there (I actually think it was a teenager being funny on the WT, btw), but I need to balance it with not locking yourself in a house to stay safe.



I always remember the line Chili Palmer used in the movie "Get Shorty": "Say as little as you can, if that." I seriously have to tell myself this all the time. It helps. I'm getting to the point now where I realize that I don't need to explain myself (or defend myself) to people. My boundaries are my decision.




Both schools that we attended have a no-bullying clause that allows you to request that your child not be put with another kid. You can't request to BE in another kid's class, but you can request that they be kept apart. If you bring up bullying concerns (and it sounds like OP's kid is hanging out with a bully-in-training), most schools with anti-bullying policies will listen.



When my kids were that age they were always within line-of-sight. It didn't hurt them and I needed it for my comfort.



You must not have kids. Any seven year old I know will absolutely cave to an adult telling them to do something they know is counter to the rules of their parents, especially if the parents are not there to back them up. That's why kids don't make decisions, adults do.

The OP is not talking about legality, she's talking about rules that she stated and the neighbor verbally agreed to, then ignored. It's not the kid's job to say "I'm not allowed to watch those kinds of movies", it's the neighbor's job to honor the OP's rules or at least let the mom know "I'm going to do this, if your kid comes over, he'll be participating."

And frankly, I didn't see any "ripping" from the OP, only from you. She's struggling with a situation that requires her to exert authority, and many of us in real life struggle with being as assertive as we are on message boards .

Also, growing up, my circle of friends was my biggest influence. I also looked for kids that liked the same things I did (joined the school newspaper, drama club, etc.), and I found a good group of friends. I also have clear memories of dropping friends because of their habits (having sex, smoking). I don't have any intention of guinea pigging my kids with bad kids to try and help the bad kids, it's not going to make my kids any better, it's just going to teach them that hanging out with people that do bad stuff is ok. I'm not the bad kid's parent, I'm not going to go all martyr and try and "fix" them at my childrens' expense...

I think there has been a ton of great advice on this thread about how to cool off the relationship, it's the implementing it that will be a challenge. Good luck, OP...

Thank you! I was beginning to think my thread had attracted all of the lovely bashers here.

I gotta say...I love how posting threads on here always brings out the bashers who tear you to bits and give "advice" for things you didn't ask. all I asked was for advice about how to handle J's mother when she calls asking for him to come over. My parenting rules were never up for debate or my rules when it comes to my child but, man, some people on here think they are. It's funny what you get away with online as opposed to face-to-face.

 

[wickywinn]

To be fair, I should mention also that, when ds7 was initially invited to J's house the first time his mother brought up that J went to the park alone and asked if ds7 could. That is when it came up that, no, he is not. In all the drama and details, I forgot to include that in my original post.

 

[wickywinn]

My 5 year old was at a party and when the mom went to pour the soda she replied, "I'm not allowed to have soda, may I have something else?"

I also asked my just turned 8 year old what he would do if he was in your child's place and he said, "I wouldn't go." If I found out he did go he would be in big time serious trouble. Yes, the mother should not have done what she did, but you can't control her. Did you tell your son before you dropped him off that going out alone was not allowed?

I don't think I could/would tell another parent what is allowed at their house. I might ask how they do things and then say "I'm not comfortable with that" and see how it goes from there. My DD is not a strong swimmer, and a friend was having some kids over to swim/sleep over. I know that family doesn't watch the kids in the pool every second, and I was not comfortable with it. I called and told her friend that I was not ok with DD swimming without me there, and that I could bring her later. Her answer was that they would take a very quick swim and get out as soon as she arrived (and they did).

If she asks again why your son can't go over I would just say, "My son doesn't seem to be able to make good choices when he's at your house."

I just posted about our initial discussion when ds7 first started going over there. She brought up that J had free reign out front and around the neighborhood and I told her ds7 did not. She totally agreed with me and even said she's worried about him too but her husband insists he'll be fine. So we did have that discussion. Even the R-rated movies. I told her no, he's not allowed to watch them.

 

[My2Qtz0205]

And your 7 yo can't open the gate and go to the front yard if he wanted to?

And what if he is at at a friends house, if they don't have a fence is he not allowed to play in the yard unless the parent watches him?

I understand your concerns, but strangers can open fences.

He can open the fence, but he knows he will get in trouble if he does. Strangers can open fences, and my dog can attack, or at least raise alarm until I get out there.

All of my son's friends' parents sit out in the yard with their kids. I don't have to ask them to, they just do it.

 

[My2Qtz0205]

double post!

 

[wickywinn]

If that's your community norm, then your rules aren't restrictive.

Than my rules aren't restrictive then since, as I posted previously, my neighborhood is not the type where kids roam freely - completely the opposite. The ones who do roam to the park and around the neighborhood are doing so solo, like J.

 

[annagirl]

In that instance, they know that no matter what an adult is saying to them, they are not disobeying the adult, the adult is disobeying ME.

And we've explained that particular concept to them, as well (when they were younger). I think it's an important distinction you need to make with kids...

Excellent! I see a conversation with DD tonight - that is *very* well put.