WDW's decline

While I don't agree with a lot of what Disney is doing, I do agree with their "limited discount" strategy.

Discounts are the easy answer and don't really solve any problems. Disney DOES have a different market than Universal, and especially Busch. Yes, there is some overlap, and yes, in many ways they are in competition, but that doesn't mean Diseny should copy everything the others do.

Disney has the ability to offer much more than Universal or Busch. Their reduction in what they offer (ie "Value") is the heart of their problem. The solution is to offer more, as they once did, not cut prices to match their reduced offerings.

People will pay a premium for the best of what Disney offers. Disney just needs to offer their best.
 
What else can we do when little Jennifer wants to see Mickey?
Falling attendance proves that there are many families who ARE finding alternatives for little Jen...


(By the way, Universal's attendance fell in 2001 vs. 2000, and by a greater percentage than WDW, so all has not been smooth with them either... Not saying Universal is failing, just that we should be careful when saying WDW should just do what Universal does.)
 
Disney's best has been improved upon by USF! And they dont corner the market anymore in regards to the best staff/cleanest parks etc, competitors have stepped up to the plate while disney cuts back on the magic, no way to increase attendance or encourage repeat visits!!
 
You HAVE to think that falling attendance over the last year or two is more due to economic concerns than the fact that Michael Eisner is cutting down on the capital allocated to the attractions.

And yes, families find alternatives, but MOSTLY because of their budgets. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone outside of these forums saying "We wanted to take our kids to WDW this year, but they've really cut down on the maintenance, and the new attractions just aren't being built like they once were. So we told our kids to heck with Disney, we'll do just fine here at Six Flags."
 

Economic concerns are Disney concerns too. They control their pricing structure.

Yes, outside of this forum I've heard people say things like, "We're not going to Disney this year because the prices have gotten so high and we're not interested in the new attractions they've built." These people are going to Hawaii, the Southwest, Alaskan cruises...still expensive vacations but more "bang for the buck" in their opinion.

It's not Six Flags vs. Disney. It's "vacation somewhere else and add a trip to the local park for the rides" vs. Disney. And a lot of parents still believe that seeing "the world" is just as good for their kids as seeing "the World."
 
For any family you have to decide what is the best value for your money and right now IMHO with what disney has done i can find better value by traveling to other destinations.There is a whole big world our there with thousands of vaction options and things to do that disney competes with. They dont just compete with Six Flags but with Las Vegas/international sites/cruises etc. So if people dont think there is anything new to see they do have thousands of other places to go with their leisure money. And some of it will go to Six Flags/Cedar Point/Holiday World if people want to do something different or experience a different ride/attraction that they are adding at a greater pace to encourage guests to come. Or it may go to money for a cruise/europe/Historical sites etc.
 
Skipmeister- You're right when you say that the average family does not analyze the new additions and company budget decisions. They just make a very subjective evaluation based on their overall experience. Then they compare that to the cost when making their next vacation decision.

When you cut hours, entertainment and services, its going to have a negative impact on the guest experience. That will have a negative impact on a families decision-making process. Maybe they won't swear off Disney forever, but they might come back after 5 years instead of 4. In other words, they visit less frequently.

BobO and Hopemax are absolutely correct when they point out that Disney isn't just competing against Six Flag's or Universal. Disney is a family resort destination, and as such, competes against Las Vegas, New York, Washington DC, Europe, Hawaii, the Carribbean, and even Grandma's house...


Economic concerns are Disney concerns too. They control their pricing structure.
I still maintain that their pricing structure is not the problem. Its what they offer for their price that is becoming the problem.

And we do have to allow for some hardship due to economic conditions. If somebody just won't fly, it really doesn't matter what Disney charges. If somebody has been laid-off, again, Disney could offer 50% off, but the laid-off worker still ain't coming.

I mean really, if Disney just came out and said they were lowering prices 20%, would that make us happy? Temporarily appease some, sure. But then what? It would just be a confirmation that Disney was no longer going to try to out-do other destinations and instead was going to become more of a bargain destination.

Pricing is a minor player in all of this...
 
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While Disney may not be in competition with USF or BG (or whoever) for the same guests, they are still in competition with these destinations. If these other parks are providing discounts or adding new rides, if they are creating more perceived value, Disney must respond. Even if someone isn't inclined to go to USF, if they read that USF is somehow creating more value he or she will look to see if Disney is providing similar value. It has been said many times around here that it doesn't matter what the competition is doing. To belive that is short sighted.

Now it doesn't mean that if USF is offering a discount that Disney must do so as well. However, Disney better do something increase the value of what the guest is receiveing. This is where new rides and attractions become important.

If USF is adding new attractions, Disney needs to keep up so that people see Disney as striving to provide more value - even if the new attractions in each park target a different demographic.

Disney isn't providing a lot in the way of discounts, and Disney hasn't been adding a lot of new rides and attractions. This may have put Disney at a competitive disadvantage - hence the current state of affairs. Don't get me wrong - the economy plays a big part as well. The economy can actually compound problems caused by failing to keep ahead of the perceived value of the competition as people become more discriminating about discretionary spending. (Just a note - for our family Disney still is ahead of the competition when it comes to vacation value, all things being considered :))

The book 'Inside the Magic Kingdom' takes this concept of competition even further. The idea being that any company (entertainment or otherwise) that provides customer service represent possible competition in that they could set a customer service standard that Disney could be compared to. This could easily be applied to resort destinations outside of the theme park arena. As Bob O pointed out, his family might see more value in visiting the Grand Canyon or who knows what. Applying this competition concept to non-entertainment companies is interesting as well. I have seen threads on other boards that point out what a poor experience some people have even trying to book a vacation thru Disney due to poor customer service. If that person who is having trouble just had a good customer service experience with any other organization it makes Disney look worse. If those headaches are a direct result of Disney cutbacks it can show that Disney has failed to meet a competitive customer service standrard set by another company. Sometimes it is these types of seemingly little, indirect things that lead people to consider alternative destinations, rather than the more obvious things like park maintenance and the like.
 
It's not just gate admission and hotel rooms though. It's food, it's merchandise, the stuff that makes up that "guest spending" category. This is the reason why Disney says that they can't build the cool stuff that Tokyo has and why Tokyo can.

An example is pins. 2 years ago pins were either $6 for a common, $8 for a LE. Now, the newer commons are $8.50 and the LE's are $10.50 or $12.50. 25%-50%. Disney's beanies 5 years ago were $6, Ty Beanie Babies sold for $5. Now Ty's sell for $6 and Disney's sell for $8-$9.

I know that DL has concerns about their dining establishments. They get horrible traffic compared to the number of people in the park. I know they asked the members of their creative advisory council their opinions ... #1 issue - price.

And from what I know from people who have visited Japan is that there prices for food and merchandise run less than they do in the US. I know pin-wise that's true. They sell in the $5-$8 range for both commons and LEs. And I've heard that eating in the park is actually cheaper than eating off property.

So 20% discount, yeah, I think Disney should seriously consider it. And I don't think it sends a signal that becoming a "bargain." Yes, I know all about "what the other parks charge," but I don't think that proves that "the market will bear the cost." Price vs. profit works on the bell curve, and I think ALL the big parks are sitting on the right side/downward slope, and that if they drop their prices slightly they will move more to the top of the curve. Lower prices will encourage more sales. I think ALL the big parks believe they are on the left side/upwards slope and that they still have room to inch up the price, "just a little bit more."
 
Now it doesn't mean that if USF is offering a discount that Disney must do so as well. However, Disney better do something increase the value of what the guest is receiveing. This is where new rides and attractions become important.

We absolutely agree. Not only is Disney not adding a whole heck of a lot, they are cutting in many areas.

I just don't like to look over at a couple of other parks and judge Disney's actions solely against them (not that you are, but many do). Even if Universal halted all investment, that wouldn't mean that Disney was going to be ok.


Hopemax, I understand what you are saying, but again, when Disney was providing a stronger, more consistent guest experience, their higher price did not hurt them. Sure, some complained, and we'd all like to go for less money, but that's pretty much the case with anything. The point is that the number of people willing to pay what Disney was charging was increasing.

So rather than chopping prices, I'd like to see Disney investing more of its park profits back into the parks in the form of new attractions and entertainment. I'm fine with "cutting the fat", but things that are integral to the guest experience are not fat...

Maybe some areas (pins, restaurants, etc) are priced a bit too high, but I don't really have any data to support that one way or the other. Lowering prices means lowering margins, and the question becomes whether the increased volume makes up for the decreased margins, as well as the impact on the overall experience. Without specific data, its impossible to judge, but again, in general, rather than decrease price, I'd rather see Disney ensure they are first providing the experience we've come to expect. If the guest value perception is still not good enough, then look at price...
 
I just don't like to look over at a couple of other parks and judge Disney's actions solely against them (not that you are, but many do). Even if Universal halted all investment, that wouldn't mean that Disney was going to be ok.
Hey, lets call today consensus day ;).
 
I don't know.... I just can't help but get the feeling that everyone is WAY too hard on Disney and Eisner. Now... Like I said... I'm not an economist. My WDW trip last month was only my second trip to WDW in my life. So, maybe since I'm not a frequent visitor I don't notice "the little things" as much. But, with that said....

We spent 5 nights at WDW. From the time we got up, until the time we practically passed out every day we were innundated with things to do. We hit all 5 of the parks, and DD & PI. The only thing at the resort that we had to complain about was the Transportation system (which was awful). And according to most folks, the Transportation system varies practically hourly (as in you could always arrive at a bus stop right after the last bus left). But, that's not the point.... here's what I'm getting to.

Skipmeister said it best - if I may summarize his comments... where else in the world can you find anything like WDW? There is nothing else like it! Sure, there are theme parks, and there are resorts. And there are "Attractions". But none has what WDW has to offer.

We were so pleased with everything during our trip. To be quite honest... even with cutbacks, I was constantly asking myself how can Disney offer so much for the money. Hell, for the two of us with our package, we had a room at ASMo, and our Ultimate Park Hopper tickets for right at $100.00/per person/per night. I went skiing in Colorado last year and paid almost twice that. Where else could a family (and I don't have any kids - so I'm assumeing somewhat) actaully spend 10 days and have something to do the entire time?

I think everyone needs to ask themselves something. If you went to New York... would you stay at the Four Seasons at $500/night, or would you stay at the Marriott for $120.00/night (I'm making up these numbers). I think the majority would stay at the cheaper place - knowing they wouldn't get quite as much service. Yet, when folks talk about WDW, it often seems like they expect "Four Seasons" service and ammenities - for "Mariott" prices. I find it odd to see complaints about prices going up or remaining steady - while not acknolwedging that this trend is happening everywhere around the Country.

When I go to Wal-Mart now - I have to wait in longer lines because only 12 of the 48 check-out lines are open. When I go to the gas station, I pay $1.40/gallon - whereas I paid $0.90/gallon two years ago. When I go to McDonalds, I have to repeat my order 15 times because the worker behind the microphone doesn't speak English any more (don't read too much into that statement... I basically mean that instead of having $10/hour English-speaking workers, they have been replaced with $7/hour illegal immigrants that "No Habla"). This trend is repeated everywhere you turn.

I think that for many folks Disney is a victim of their own image as "the best place in the world". So many of you have the impression that you should be pampered/entertained/thrilled from the second the plane lands until it takes off. Well... you CAN have that. But not if you want to complain about the prices!

So, I think that you need to make up your mind. Do you want $52.00/park tickets - decent service and fun attractions.... Do you want $75.00/park tickets - incredible service and heart-stopping attractions..... or, Do you want $30.00/park tickets and the same level of service and attractions you would find at your average regional amusement park?
 
I for one don't consider Universal and Sea World regional parks. They attract a large local base plus many out of area visitors. These are not shabby Six Flaggs or Paramount parks. I used to work at a shabby Paramount park and know the difference. Busch is more of a regional park because it is quite a jaunt from the Orlando tourist strip. Sea World is in the middle of another large expansion also. I don't expect Disney would ever match the buy 1 day get the rest of year free offer that Sea World and Busch had. However, does Disney believe they are too good to match Sea World's 2nd day free offer and 20 percent off advance purchase? I just don't see the harm in getting more people in the parks if it takes a discount. I wouldn't of bought my Universal pass with free parking had it not been only $99 a year. Universal got $400 out of my family because of this discount. That is $400 Disney won't see and the money we spend inside Universal. Are Disney's operating costs greater than the surrounding parks and they can't make money attracting guests paying around $40?
 
I think you're the exception Buschfan and also part of a demographic that just isn't significant enough for Disney to worry about. It isn't like Disneyland where nearly 70% of the visitors are local...And also from what I've gathered most of the US local crowd is the young & not necessarily affluent...Which (again) Disney doesn't mind losing.

Putting "butts in the seats" is an interesting concept and if the economic decline widens Disney may have to enter the fray, but if the economy turns around quickly Disney will be in fat city while US will still be catering to a crowd of virtual freebies...

I agree with Matt that discounting is probably not the route Disney wants to take...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:
 
I for one don't consider Universal and Sea World regional parks.
True, they attract more out-of-towners than Six Flags, but they rely on a higher percentage of locals than Disney. Not a knock, just a fact.

Universal in particular is trying to change that, and they may succeed, but that doesn't change how it stands now.

I just don't see the harm in getting more people in the parks if it takes a discount.
There is potential harm because you lower your margins, and those same people will expect similar discounts when times are better. You will then have a difficult time raising prices to levels that you could have had you not discounted.

Sure, there's a line somewhere in there, and that's why Disney does discount more now than they did a few years ago. But they still want to be able to charge what guests are willing to pay when times are good. Its a strategy that has worked for years. Consistent value. The problem with this value equation isn't on the cost side, its on the benefit side.

I wouldn't of bought my Universal pass with free parking had it not been only $99 a year. Universal got $400 out of my family because of this discount. That is $400 Disney won't see and the money we spend inside Universal.
Ok, lets just say that Disney charges $200 per person for the same product, factoring in Disney's greater number of attractions, etc.

Now, lets look at two families. One (yours) pays $400 to Universal. Another pays $800 to Disney. Now, lets assume Disney had lowered their price to $400, and lets say that was low enough to get you to purchase Disney instead of Universal.

You're right, Disney now has your $400, and that's $400 they would not have had. But what about the other family? They only had to pay $400, when they were willing to pay $800. So now, Disney is right back where they started, bringing in $800, only now, they are incurring costs on 8 people instead of 4. This reduces their profit, even though more people are in the park.

Yes, they will make some of it up in merchandise/food sales. But will it be enough to cover the $400 they gave away? Remember, they will have to make up $400 in PROFIT to cover the $400 they've lost. That means if you spend $400, they are still in the hole, because the profit on that $400 might only be $200.

Now, don't get hung up on the specific numbers, because they aren't accurate, or even important to the discussion. I'm just showing how its not as simple as saying lower your prices to get more people in. Yes, there is a point where you could be charging too much, but there is also a point where you are charging too little.

Its not that Disney thinks they are too good to charge less, its that people still place higher value on Disney than Universal. That's why Universal cannot get away with charging what Disney does. That's also why they want to become what Disney is, a true resort destination for families. Then they can (and will) charge what Disney does.

You're right in that if Disney continues to reduce the value of its product by cutting and not developing, they will be forced to lower prices. But again, the problem is the benefit side, not the price.
 
I was constantly asking myself how can Disney offer so much for the money.
Why don't you ask yourself how Disney could offer more for the money in the past than they do now?

would you stay at the Four Seasons at $500/night, or would you stay at the Marriott for $120.00/night (I'm making up these numbers).
As I've been saying (repeatedly), price is not the problem.

Regardless of your choice, Disney guests have been willing to pay a premium for Disney's service and superior attractions for years.

They still are. Its just that Disney is asking them to pay the same (or more) for shorter hours, less entertainment, etc.

Some people still think its worth it (like you and I). Some don't, like those that aren't visiting as often, or at all.

Sure, there are theme parks, and there are resorts. And there are "Attractions". But none has what WDW has to offer.
They don't have to offer what WDW does, they just have to offer a greater value. While you may believe that everybody else is decreasing their offerings right along with Disney, this is simply not the case for all family resort destinations.

Yes, a WDW vacation is expensive. So are other destinations. We just returned from Kauai, and if there is a more beautiful place on earth, I've never seen it. There are plenty of family activities. Yes, they are different than what WDW offers, but they are not a lower level of offerings by any means. And its places like this that are competing for vacation dollars, and places like this that Disney must keep up with. Six Flags is not even a blip on Disney's radar screen. Comparisons with them, while ignoring other destinations are pointless.

So, I think that you need to make up your mind. Do you want $52.00/park tickets - decent service and fun attractions.... Do you want $75.00/park tickets - incredible service and heart-stopping attractions..... or, Do you want $30.00/park tickets and the same level of service and attractions you would find at your average regional amusement park?
Many people are making up their minds, and they are making a third choice: GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. As our friend AV has told us many times, you can't dictate to the public, they dictate to you. And you either listen, or face the consequences.
 
So seeing the chart from 1997 to now, it appears overall attendance is about the same but for each park it is down. AK was not open then and its opening, instead of adding customers, just decreased those going to other parks. In other words, Disney has not seen an overall increase even though it added a fourth park (where of course they cut, even before it was built, the Beastly Kingdom to save bucks) and obviously more of a decline will appear this year. Reasons stated include decline in service (regular visitors have definitely noticed this -- bathrooms and streets just get cleaned less often, lightbulbs at parks go out and stay that way longer, needed painting seems to be put off much longer now than before) and lack of new attractions other than carnival type rides. Agree those are among the reasons. However, I dug out some old receipts and books from that time and this year just to see some comparisons. One of Disney's problems may also be the "baseball syndrome" -- you just keep raising prices year after year so that fewer and fewer people can afford to go. Though I cannot vouch for complete accuracy, based on stuff I have from 1997 and 2002: (a) park ticket prices have increased a total of 35% to 40%; (b) resort room prices have gone up 30% to 35%; (c) food and drink prices at restaurants and counter services have increased 30% to 35%. During same period of time total inflation is a 10% change, i.e., you need on average $1.10 today to buy what cost $1 in 1997). Disney's percentage increases in that time period have thus greatly outstripped inflation (even accused monopolist Bill Gates hasn't been able to match those kinds of percentage increases on products). Average income increases were doing well as to inflation in the earlier part of that 5 year period but have been stagnant for the last two (close to inflation). Disney reports high decrease in foreign travellers and asserts it is a reaction to fear of travel due to 9/11. Possibly, but that was declining too before 9/11 and is likely partly due to dollar's increase in value to many currencies in last few years with the result that Disney's 35% increase overall in American dollars is more like a 50% or higher increase for many foreign travellers. In other words, Disney seems to be at the point where it has priced itself out of the market for a large group of people who may have been able to afford it in 1997.
 
Disney is discounting less now than in '97. That was the last time I was able to obtain AAA discounts, Magic Kingdom Club and Mc Donalds coupons for admissions for one day. Is it just a coincidence attendance is dropping off since then? I am not really sure, but it is interesting the decline seems to start with that year. I agree that people are going other places. Cruise prices are especially attractive now. Why can't Disney reduce prices to compete? I get rooms all the time on Priceline for 20 to 23 dollars all the time in Orlando. These hotels have to pay for electricity, water, and housekeeping. Cruise lines discount heavily at the last minute to get ships full. They would rather get something than let the room go empty. Is Disney really hurting allowing a family of 4 to pay $160 a day instead of $200. The rides use the same amount of electricity. The only real added cost is maybe they will get a few more flushes in the restrooms. I would hope the increase in in-park revenue would make-up for that.
 
There is a great discussion of this over on Mouseplanet-but basically you can provide a really high quality/high priced product, a low quality/low priced product or a mix...lower quality/high priced or high quality/ lower priced...usual higher quality is more expensive to make so you can only make money on it when you charge a high price..but you make money this way and that is what Disney USED to be- they distinguished themselves from their competition by competing strictly on quality-not price...lately they have tried getting away with less investment, less quality and the competition is much stiffer here and gets only worse as you move to lower quality because it is just easier for others to enter the market and compete when the initial investment is cheaper...so Disney can try to compete with these low priced competitors on price, but to do so they have to cut quality-when they do that what distinguishes them? This is the problem with the DCA Paradise Pier rides, why pay the Disney admission to go to a recreation of what you can get cheaper at a real boardwalk on the beach? Disney has lost sight of its previously successful business model of competing on quality because they thought they did not have to and the margins could be huge...but in compromising quality they have lost brand identity-which USED to be synonymous with quality...now they are just looked at like everyone else...and the stock price reflects this.

Paul
 














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