WDW to prevent AP holders from visiting parks many mornings

[whiteness]

Yes but they are attempting to manipulate demand. I’m sure it works on the masses, but for a lot of their base it’s not appealing, especially since it costs more.

When you tell people they cannot have something, they instinctively want it. When you tell people they must do something, they reject it.

If you can get people to decide, of their own free will, that they want what they can have, then they will be happy.

 

[Jonfw2]

Yes but I can by something else like beef. Now if they removed other meats or artificially capped how much other alternative protein was available and presented only swordfish…. That’s a better analogy.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is in it for Disney to artificially cap park attendance? What good does that do them?

 

[Madame]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is in it for Disney to artificially cap park attendance? What good does that do them?

Staffing. If their budget is like any other company, it’s likely one of their top outlays. They’re trying to micromanage us to save money.

 

[Jonfw2]

Staffing. If their budget is like any other company, it’s likely one of their top outlays. They’re trying to micromanage us to save money.

Do you think this is a matter of not WANTING more staffing or not being able to find it/train it?

 

[Sandisw]

Coercing people to purchase less desirable products by rationing the ones they really want to buy is a bad strategy.

It almost reminds one of how things used to work in the Soviet Union. Everyone wanted to buy nice stuff, but nice stuff was scarce. So people waited in long lines, or did whatever they had to do to get their hands on it. If they couldn't, they were forced to make do with the not so nice alternatives.

Part of those demand imbalances were due to incompetence of the people in charge. They didn't make enough of what people wanted, and they didn't price things appropriately. But the state had a monopoly, so those people kept their jobs (until they didn't...)

We've got the same problems here: it's not "our" fault that demand for Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom don't match their respective capacities. That's Disney's fault. But Disney wants to cram one down our throats while withholding the other. Disney can do that because they are a monopoly (somewhat.) But it doesn't make it a good strategy, any more than it did when central planners did it in "non-market economies."

How do market economies solve imbalances in supply and demand? They don't typically use rationing. That tends to piss people off. They try to increase demand of less desirable products by improving them in the long run, while using pricing to adjust demand in the short run.

How would pricing work in this context? Crowding is kind of a cost and it also affects desirability. You could give people a fixed number of credits they could use to purchase visits, and make some parks more "expensive." You could give people a certain number of free Fastpasses per year per park, and maybe give more for the parks you want them to visit more. You could make Annual pass discounts more generous in some parks than others.

But by far the best way to solve this is to make all of the parks desirability match their capacity. By adding more and better rides and attractions to the less desirable parks. And if Disney hasn't been able to do that, that's on them, not us. They need to fix this.

Except the ability to book any of the parks, as long as you plan in advance..and I mean like at least a few weeks ahead , hasn’t shut anyone out of a park.

The people who showed up without them simply didn’t pay attention to the info out there that one needs them.

Even though the Disney website will let you purchase tickets without choosing, when you click buy tickets it starts with check for availability at your parks.

Sure, it’s different now than before in which you could wake up and go to a park and the only risk of being capped was potentially the fire codes and now you can’t.

I still believe this is why they may be developing a way to add alternative choices for APs not staying onsite.

Unless they sell tickets for individual parks, or go back to who cares if MK is always hours long waits, at least this system helps people potentially avoid it.

Add in early hours at every park,,vs just one park each day..and limiting evening hours at MK and Epcot for deluxe guests, they certainly have enhanced options to plan in a way that can help reduce times waiting in lines.

Like I said, if I have access to the parks for around 30 days a year, and can do it cheaper than having to buy multi day tickets each time, I’d be happy with that type of pass.

Unless you are local..and they should have a pass with more admissions, I’d venture a lot of DVC owners would be okay with access to a pass that isn’t necessarily unlimited for all days of the year.

 

[Madame]

Do you think this is a matter of not WANTING more staffing or not being able to find it/train it?

I honestly don’t know, but they were attempting to micromanage crowds before covid with FP+. Most of us acquiesced. For me personally, this is a bridge too far. I’ll be back when things are less restricted or just do parties and keep our USO APs. We still love DVC.

 

[Jonfw2]

I honestly don’t know, but they were attempting to micromanage crowds before covid with FP+. Most of us acquiesced. For me personally, this is a bridge too far. I’ll be back when things are less restricted or just do parties and keep our USO APs. We still love DVC.

So the answer is they would desperately like to hire more staff. There is no financial incentive for them to operate at partial capacity when full capacity means a bigger profit.

Regarding FP...one person's "micromanage" is another's "new helpful option". I didn't see that as micromanaging whatsoever.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is in it for Disney to artificially cap park attendance? What good does that do them?

So what's really interesting about this is that a Disney resort is going to do this. OLC announced recently that they were going to reduce capacity at both Japanese Disney parks but ticket prices would increase to "give a better experience for guests". I know these parks are not owned by Disney and Disney itself would never do this as there's money to be made with overcrowded parks, but there is a resort that is doing this. They also don't have AP sales right now if that matters.

 

[Madame]

So the answer is they would desperately like to hire more staff. There is no financial incentive for them to operate at partial capacity when full capacity means a bigger profit.

Regarding FP...one person's "micromanage" is another's "new helpful option". I didn't see that as micromanaging whatsoever.

Certainly and I can see it from your pov. I did say « for me personally ». We’ll have to wait and see if more fans think like me or like you. Have a good afternoon.

 

[Jonfw2]

So what's really interesting about this is that a Disney resort is going to do this. OLC announced recently that they were going to reduce capacity at both Japanese Disney parks but ticket prices would increase to "give a better experience for guests". I know these parks are not owned by Disney and Disney itself would never do this as there's money to be made with overcrowded parks, but there is a resort that is doing this. They also don't have AP sales right now if that matters.

Don't forget Japan is also far more strict with their Covid protocols still so that could be a factor.

But if that's not part of the discussion, I can still see the business sense to it. Like turning an airplane all first class. The goal is to sell a third of the tickets and quadruple the price- bigger profit. But that's a massive gamble to take and I agree that the domestic Disney parks aren't interested in anything like that.

 

[thanxfornoticin]

So the answer is they would desperately like to hire more staff. There is no financial incentive for them to operate at partial capacity when full capacity means a bigger profit.

Regarding FP...one person's "micromanage" is another's "new helpful option". I didn't see that as micromanaging whatsoever.

Agreed. More staff, more customers, more money. And most of the things folks view as micromanaging are actually optional! FP, FP+, G+, LL - all optional items you're not required to have to enjoy the parks at Disney. Theoretically, you can even go without dining reservations! But that could really restrict options, and you might be eating a lot of hamburgers and popcorn! But it's still optional!

 

[BeachClub2014]

So the answer is they would desperately like to hire more staff. There is no financial incentive for them to operate at partial capacity when full capacity means a bigger profit.

Regarding FP...one person's "micromanage" is another's "new helpful option". I didn't see that as micromanaging whatsoever.

I'm not so sure Disney would desperately like to hire more staff. Perhaps. I would hope so.

Maybe I am too cynical and jaded, but if anyone thinks Disney is capping attendance at parks as a goodwill gesture to enhance the guest experience, then I would suggest they haven't been paying close attention. Historically, Disney doesn't really do things out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. They make strategic decisions that add to the bottom line. Which they can do, it is a for-profit enterprise, after all.

 

[Jonfw2]

I'm not so sure Disney would desperately like to hire more staff. Perhaps. I would hope so.

Maybe I am too cynical and jaded, but if anyone thinks Disney is capping attendance at parks as a goodwill gesture to enhance the guest experience, then I would suggest they haven't been paying close attention. Historically, Disney doesn't really do things out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. They make strategic decisions that add to the bottom line. Which they can do, it is a for-profit enterprise, after all.

Make no mistake, they are not capping attendance because they're kindhearted. Agreed fully.

But let me give you a specific example that proves that the current situation isn't their goal: most of the massively high profit VIP tours they offered previously have not come back. You get a group of 15 who paid $400 a piece for Day of Thrills and two cast members making maybe $400 total for the day. That's a $5,000 plus profit from people who ALREADY PAID TO GET IN!!! It's found money.

So why haven't they brought them back yet? They simply don't have enough cast members to facilitate. They're leaving money on the table. Not as a business choice but because they don't HAVE a choice until they get more labor.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Don't forget Japan is also far more strict with their Covid protocols still so that could be a factor.

But if that's not part of the discussion, I can still see the business sense to it. Like turning an airplane all first class. The goal is to sell a third of the tickets and quadruple the price- bigger profit. But that's a massive gamble to take and I agree that the domestic Disney parks aren't interested in anything like that.

They announced it as a permanent change and not a Covid one, but we'll see how that goes. They also added a paid skip the line service like DLP's They also announced that a Disney hotel reservation guarantees you access to the parks (as they also have a park reservation system).

Yeah that's how I interpreted it too. This announcement is still fresh so we have yet to see the implications of the decision. OLC is also a corporation and I know they're not doing this out of genuine concern for their guests - there's probably some business reason for it.

I do think the park reservation system is partly due to staffing issues and another part because Disney loves being able to keep track of how many people are in each park at once. The system is here to stay and I think it's just another part of Disney planning we'll have to live with.

 

[Jonfw2]

They announced it as a permanent change and not a Covid one, but we'll see how that goes. They also added a paid skip the line service like DLP's They also announced that a Disney hotel reservation guarantees you access to the parks (as they also have a park reservation system).

Yeah that's how I interpreted it too. This announcement is still fresh so we have yet to see the implications of the decision. OLC is also a corporation and I know they're not doing this out of genuine concern for their guests - there's probably some business reason for it.

I do think the park reservation system is partly due to staffing issues and another part because Disney loves being able to keep track of how many people are in each park at once. The system is here to stay and I think it's just another part of Disney planning we'll have to live with.

This really strikes me as "if you can't fix it, feature it". Meaning behind closed doors they're freaking out because they can't increase capacity and/or they don't have enough cast members to do so. So what do you do? Make reduced capacity seem like it's a benefit!

I think that could be in play here.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm not so sure Disney would desperately like to hire more staff. Perhaps. I would hope so.

Maybe I am too cynical and jaded, but if anyone thinks Disney is capping attendance at parks as a goodwill gesture to enhance the guest experience, then I would suggest they haven't been paying close attention. Historically, Disney doesn't really do things out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. They make strategic decisions that add to the bottom line. Which they can do, it is a for-profit enterprise, after all.

I completely agree Disney makes decisions that can and will benefit them.

But something that benefits them can also be a positive enhancement for guests at the same time..it may simply be an unexpected consequence of it.

For us, having a general sense of the crowds is a nice option but I doubt for one minute is reason for still being there is to help enhance my trip..even though it has.

 

[RoseGold]

most of the massively high profit VIP tours they offered previously have not come back. You get a group of 15 who paid $400 a piece for Day of Thrills and two cast members making maybe $400 total for the day. That's a $5,000 plus profit from people who ALREADY PAID TO GET IN!!! It's found money.

The actual VIP tours are out in force. I saw plenty of plaids. They just funnel to the actual VIP experience instead, instead of the Great Value one.

Plenty of posts here in the cash boards about how people are just doing that because the park experience is so complicated/miserable. I'm just a cheapskate AP, so not for me, but I can see it for someone who is doing a once in a lifetime kind of thing and doesn't want to get a PhD in Disney.

 

[tjkraz]

Coercing people to purchase less desirable products by rationing the ones they really want to buy is a bad strategy.

It almost reminds one of how things used to work in the Soviet Union. Everyone wanted to buy nice stuff, but nice stuff was scarce. So people waited in long lines, or did whatever they had to do to get their hands on it. If they couldn't, they were forced to make do with the not so nice alternatives.

Part of those demand imbalances were due to incompetence of the people in charge. They didn't make enough of what people wanted, and they didn't price things appropriately. But the state had a monopoly, so those people kept their jobs (until they didn't...)

We've got the same problems here: it's not "our" fault that demand for Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom don't match their respective capacities. That's Disney's fault. But Disney wants to cram one down our throats while withholding the other. Disney can do that because they are a monopoly (somewhat.) But it doesn't make it a good strategy, any more than it did when central planners did it in "non-market economies."

How do market economies solve imbalances in supply and demand? They don't typically use rationing. That tends to piss people off. They try to increase demand of less desirable products by improving them in the long run, while using pricing to adjust demand in the short run.

How would pricing work in this context? Crowding is kind of a cost and it also affects desirability. You could give people a fixed number of credits they could use to purchase visits, and make some parks more "expensive." You could give people a certain number of free Fastpasses per year per park, and maybe give more for the parks you want them to visit more. You could make Annual pass discounts more generous in some parks than others.

But by far the best way to solve this is to make all of the parks desirability match their capacity. By adding more and better rides and attractions to the less desirable parks. And if Disney hasn't been able to do that, that's on them, not us. They need to fix this.

I don't necessarily disagree with this. Though Disney has been investing rather significantly in recent years. In the last 4 years, Hollywood Studios has opened Toy Story Land, Galaxy's Edge and Runaway Railway. Epcot opened two high profile attractions in just the past year. All three of the non-MK parks could use more, especially Animal Kingdom. But that won't happen overnight.

If we want to specifically address Magic Kingdom, it's currently projected at capacity on exactly 9 days throughout the rest of 2022, 7 of which fall between now and 7/27. There are still two days within the next week when guests can make reservations for MK, and hopping is available every day.

This isn't a situation where guests are routinely blocked from visiting the park months in advance. It's also THE Magic Kingdom. Adding a half dozen e-ticket attractions to Epcot isn't going to lessen the appeal of the MK. It's still the only Florida park with Main Street USA, Cinderella Castle, Space Mountain, and so on. And there's something to be said for not overloading it with guests.

The simplest explanation for what we're currently witnessing at WDW is that demand for the parks is exceedingly high. All of them. Perhaps even higher than pre-COVID. Park Pass may be having some influence on guest behavior, but when you've got parks reaching capacity on a daily basis and long lines at all 4 locations, there's just a lot of people there!

Without Park Pass driving people to Animal Kingdom, maybe Dinosaur's standby line is less than the current 55. But then you've got MK lines that are even longer than the current 60 minutes for Splash and 65 minutes for Space Mtn.

Park Pass is newer and it's a place to lay blame for current crowds and wait times. But without Park Pass, the crowds wouldn't go away; there's every reason to think they'd be even larger. And we'd be discussing a slightly different set of problems.

 

[Jonfw2]

The actual VIP tours are out in force. I saw plenty of plaids. They just funnel to the actual VIP experience instead, instead of the Great Value one.

Plenty of posts here in the cash boards about how people are just doing that because the park experience is so complicated/miserable. I'm just a cheapskate AP, so not for me, but I can see it for someone who is doing a once in a lifetime kind of thing and doesn't want to get a PhD in Disney.

Yes. The private highest-end VIP tours are back. That doesn't discount my point at all.

 

[Smugpugmug]

This really strikes me as "if you can't fix it, feature it". Meaning behind closed doors they're freaking out because they can't increase capacity and/or they don't have enough cast members to do so. So what do you do? Make reduced capacity seem like it's a benefit!

I think that could be in play here.

I think that could be a possibility at both resorts. I know people are mainly talking about WDW being very crowded recently but every Disney park is crowded. I've seen reports of DL, DLP and TDR being very crowded due to demand for the product.

Also agree about your comments about the VIP tours. On my previous trips I saw SO many VIP groups around the parks. More and more people are dishing out the money for that rather than try to deal with the crowds and Genie+/ILL.