Walking “fix” implemented? Problems booking a high value Villa.

[Chuck S]

So your point of view seems to be, that unless there is a solution to every problem that solves the problem in its entirety with absolutely zero collateral damage - we shouldn't bother at all. I can't even fathom how that point of view exists anywhere except discussion forums.

No, but but it is my opinion that solutions need to be thoroughtly thought out and at least, in theory have, a big impact on avaiabilty or solving a given issue, including how it impacts the entire DVC Membership, before being put in place and inconveniencing the entire DVC Membership. Especially things like captcha that really won't have the problem solving impact you're hoping for. Again, there is already a yes or no question on the reservation page...about whether the person is a member or not...has that had any impact? And lowering the threashold should certainly have all the aspects considered...will it have an impact on renting...maybe, but again proving that Mrs. Jones in Deluth isn't my bestie would be problematical and take needed CMs from the phone lines, but will it have an impact on the average DVC member that has a large family or a large group of friends? Definitely! And again, how would DVC make that determination as to whether it was a rental of a family/friend reservation? I'm old, I have friends, and acquaintences all over the US, from people I went to school with in California, to former co-workers who've relocated to Illinois and Alaska. I keep in touch with all of them. If you saw several reservation come in from a membership with primaries with addresses from all over the country, what would you think? And we actually were planning a reunion for a while. If an owner wasn't renting points, but DVC said they had too many reservations that year and started cancelling reservations, lawsuit waiting to happen with very negative publicity for DVC and timeshares in general, in a world seemingly run by "internet influencers."

Again, every possible solution needs to be thoroughly researched and analyzed for viability, ease of implementation, whether it would have any measurable impact on the problem, what would be the cost factor of implenting the change, and impact on the membership overall.

Stats are what Disney is good at, they've been collecting our information and spending habits for decades. If there were an easy workable solution, it would have been in place by now.

 

[Chuck S]

"Earning My Ears" vs. "Super Moderator"

David vs. Goliath??

This is an interesting debate to watch!

Just FYI, CarolMN and I have the Super Moderator designations because we needed them to get into specific parts of the DISBoard system a bit deeper than other moderators to operate the Rent/Transfer Board....that is ALL that it means. My opinions are my own, based on my experience with DVC and my own travel habits over the last 32 years of my DVC Membership.

 

[Sandisw]

With all due respect, these last responses defending the rights of computer bots to book DVC rooms are completely absurd and signify little more than either complete ignorance of technology, or an intentional attempt to misunderstand the situation. These are programs written with the specific intent of getting an advantage over humans, and it is not productive to any conversation to act like you don't understand that.

It's completely baffling why anyone who is a typical user would be arguing for the right of some owners to manipulate a system to the detriment of the bulk of other owners, and further arguing that nothing should be done to stop corporations from doing so.

Because the argument is that this type of program is causing havoc in the system and that it is the only thing defined as "unfair". I gave several examples of other things that impact booking that can be seen as unfair and it was indicated that as long as someone has the choice to do something, and doesn't, then it is fair.

It then turned into saying that using bots violated the contract because its not a human....So, I am not defending that DVC shouldn't try to always do their best to help to level the playing field as much as is humanly possible. But, the only sure fire way to to eliminate some computer program from being first in line is to eliminate online booking. And, if businesses are using bots to snag hard to get rooms, and owners of that resort are upset, they can ask DVC to make it phone call only booking.

The system is not and never will be 100% perfect....as I said, if I use a network computer at work, that runs at a speed 10x's the high speed I have at home, I DO have an advantage over someone else who does not have the ability to use a professional server to book. That is the point I am making....you simply can not make it perfect...they can try, but at what expense.

Making it hard to log in and book your room by adding captcha, 2FA, etc. that can lead to human error, IMO, is a greater risk of being unfair than a bot that someone has purchased that aids in their booking.

Plus, the notion is that the bots are taking all the hard to get rooms from owners, all the time, and that is 100% false.

When I look at DVC and how it operates, I try to look at it from as much of an objective stance as I can, look at all the pros/cons and potenial issues, and apply logic based on the contract, laws, and what is feasbile in that situation.

In this case, the use of bots may be having a minisule impact on the system overall, but also may not be something that can easily be "stopped" as long as the online system works.

 

[mistysue]

But captcha wouldn't really be a deterrent for the bots. They'd just pause and wait for their human to make a couple of keystrokes, The comercial renters would simply start using their bots to walk reservations instead of making them right at the 11 month mark.

A yes or no question solves what, exactly? If they are using bots, you don't think they'd say that they aren't booking it as a spec rental? There is already a box to check if the person isn;t a DVC Member, has it stopped anything?

And lowering the threshold to what? How many CM would you pull away from other duties to check and follow up with the owners?

But still, you admit that a lot of other things, like too many small contracts are the low points cost of certain room designations, so the booking problems would still exist. There is no real solution. What is clear, is that DVC should never have built the units in such a way as to need rooms designated as "value point" rooms, and allow such small contracts in a system designed for a minimum of 230 point contracts.

Making the bots wait for human interaction either eliminates or seriously cuts back on the advantage they have.

If guests were asked when checking in if they personally knew the owner, a lot of renters aren't going to be comfortable lying about that.

 

[DougEMG]

While I personally don't think that using a bot is against the rules, I'm more than happy to have them magically stopped as I don't have access to one

I'm not willing though to spend any of my money to stop them as I'm not sure if I'm even impacted by them.

 

[mistysue]

Because the argument is that this type of program is causing havoc in the system and that it is the only thing defined as "unfair". I gave several examples of other things that impact booking that can be seen as unfair and it was indicated that as long as someone has the choice to do something, and doesn't, then it is fair.

It then turned into saying that using bots violated the contract because its not a human....So, I am not defending that DVC shouldn't try to always do their best to help to level the playing field as much as is humanly possible. But, the only sure fire way to to eliminate some computer program from being first in line is to eliminate online booking.

The system is not and never will be 100% perfect....as I said, if I use a network computer at work, that runs at a speed 10x's the high speed I have at home, I DO have an advantage over someone else who does not have the ability to use a professional server to book. That is the point I am making....you simply can not make it perfect...they can try, but at what expense.

Making it hard to log in and book your room by adding captcha, 2FA, etc. that can lead to human error, IMO, is a greater risk of being unfair than a bot that someone has purchased that aids in their booking.

Plus, the notion is that the bots are taking all the rooms from owners, all the time, and that is 100% false.

A problem does not have to be 100% solved to be improved. There's no excuse to not want improvements that increase fairness.

We will have to completely disagree that asking for captchas or 2FA is more unfair than corporations using bots. There's a lot of money being made by using bots in Disney's systems, be that DVC, dining, or the stores. Doing nothing because it might not solve 100% of the issue is negligent on their part and as for DVC's involvement we are paying them to administrate a system that they know is giving unfair advantages to companies managing rentals.

 

[Chuck S]

Making the bots wait for human interaction either eliminates or seriously cuts back on the advantage they have.

If guests were asked when checking in if they personally knew the owner, a lot of renters aren't going to be comfortable lying about that.

I don't think waiting for the bots to have captcha input would "seriously" have major impact, we'll have to just disagree on that.

So then, my guests and renters couldn't use the online check-in and HAVE to stop at the desk? Even so, would the owner that is renting would simlpy tell his clients that if they don't say they know him, that DVC will cancel the reservation...would the renter really know the actual rules, or even care? And why would the front desk even care, they don't work for DVC, they work for Disney Resorts. Have you ever seen how messed up your points can get by the front desk if they've had to modify/upgrade your room because it had a maintancne issue?

 

[Sandisw]

A problem does not have to be 100% solved to be improved. There's no excuse to not want improvements that increase fairness.

We will have to completely disagree that asking for captchas or 2FA is more unfair than corporations using bots. There's a lot of money being made by using bots in Disney's systems, be that DVC, dining, or the stores. Doing nothing because it might not solve 100% of the issue is negligent on their part and as for DVC's involvement we are paying them to administrate a system that they know is giving unfair advantages to companies managing rentals.

No one said, including me, that DVC should not try to do something to make the system as best as it can. And, as I said, if one is concerned about the impact, then tell DVC that you would not be opposed to phone bookings only, because, that is the only way to fit the use of bots 100%.

Again, we do differ and I recognize that there is no way to fix every nuance and that somethings come with the territory. IMO, I don't want a captcha or 2FA because it could cause more owners to lose out than what is currently happening with bots.

If DVC decides that is what they want to do, I will certainly accept it but that doesn't mean it has to be my first choice.

 

[thanxfornoticin]

I'm not willing though to spend any of my money to stop them as I'm not sure if I'm even impacted by them.

This is a point in the back of my mind while reading this on-going thread. There's a lot of speculation talked about as fact, stating how detrimental and impactful these "bots" are in taking reservations away from members. I don't think any of us really knows if there's a big impact, medium impact, or no impact. A member getting 'lucky' (as the term has been used here) and getting a hard-to-get reservation on time and when they want it. might have nothing to do with circumventing "bots", but instead is a result of good planning and being online at the right time to make the reservation their membership allows. Sometimes the number of rooms (supply) is nearly enough for the number of members wishing to book (demand).

I personally don't want to go back 20-25 years ago (don't recall when online bookings actually started) and have the only way to book being a phone call.

And for me, controlling these "bots" and controlling "walking" are related a bit, but also 2 different things. DVC could practically eliminate walking if they eliminated Modify. Any changes would require cancel/book instead. It's what they do at other parks/resorts - and it would work, but I would be really disappointed if they made a change that drastic. The DVC system works well for (my wild estimate) 95% of the members who use the reservation system correctly? I'm all for improvements here and there to benefit members (like they've done over the years), but I'm not sure this is an area it's going to happen.

 

[Tatebeck]

Going back to the earlier discussion, a family member booking for you could be made an associate member or have their name added to a deed to book within the rules. A bot cannot be either of those things because an associate member and other members require that it be a "person". A program is not a person. A program cannot be a member, so a program cannot book within the rules.

From:
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/faq/member-types/rights-privileges

"An Associate is a person named by the Purchaser or Purchasers who is only authorized to make reservations using the Disney Vacation Club Member's Home Resort Vacation Points"

It's pretty clear, unless you think that computer programs are people? Or unless one purposely misreads or misunderstands the rules.

Again, I will reiterate that I never said bots are currently taking all or even most rooms. I said they could be having an effect now and the definitely have potential to be a major problem and they should take steps to prevent/stop it.

I have mentioned multiple easy things they could to to make it harder to stop bots, even without using 2FA or captchas.

They could slightly randomize the actual time by a second or so that the site goes live each morning. The bots wouldn't have an exact time to program for and their timing would be more akin to a human booking the reservation. Easy to do, cheap to do

They could also simply take note of the data whenever someone is booking within a few seconds of 8:00 AM. If someone's average access time is a consistent pattern to the millisecond, or their average access time is significantly faster than is possible for a human being, then they can be warned against using programs and then barred from online bookings if they continue to abuse the rules.

It's not rocket surgery or brain science lol

 

[Sandisw]

Making the bots wait for human interaction either eliminates or seriously cuts back on the advantage they have.

If guests were asked when checking in if they personally knew the owner, a lot of renters aren't going to be comfortable lying about that.

I mean where in the contract does it give DVC the authority to question me about who my guests are. That is a serious invasion of my privacy and theirs. Not to mention that they don't need to because they know whose name is on the reservation and what it matches the owner or not....

I get people want all sorts of things to be put in place, but they have to be supported by the terms of the contract and saying "its commerical" so its a violation does not cut it. Yes, DVC can put in place things to make it harder for any owner, including a business to secure reservations faster.

But, you seem to be sticking with the notion that "commericial" means what you want it to mean and not what it means in relation to the DVC contract, and what rights we do and do not have.

 

[Sandisw]

Going back to the earlier discussion, a family member booking for you could be made an associate member or have their name added to a deed to book within the rules. A bot cannot be either of those things because an associate member and other members require that it be a "person". A program is not a person. A program cannot be a member, so a program cannot book within the rules.

From:
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/faq/member-types/rights-privileges

"An Associate is a person named by the Purchaser or Purchasers who is only authorized to make reservations using the Disney Vacation Club Member's Home Resort Vacation Points"

It's pretty clear, unless you think that computer programs are people? Or unless one purposely misreads or misunderstands the rules.

Again, I will reiterate that I never said bots are currently taking all or even most rooms. I said they could be having an effect now and the definitely have potential to be a major problem and they should take steps to prevent/stop it.

I have mentioned multiple easy things they could to to make it harder to stop bots, even without using 2FA or captchas.

They could slightly randomize the actual time by a second or so that the site goes live each morning. The bots wouldn't have an exact time to program for and their timing would be more akin to a human booking the reservation. Easy to do, cheap to do

They could also simply take note of the data whenever someone is booking within a few seconds of 8:00 AM. If someone's average access time is a consistent pattern to the millisecond, or their average access time is significantly faster than is possible for a human being, then they can be warned against using programs and then barred from online bookings if they continue to abuse the rules.

It's not rocket surgery or brain science lol

To be fair, the comment regarding associates was in response to the rules you posted that had the word member, and since a bot is not a member, it should not be allowed to be used.

Yes, associates are humans, and not computrers, but it was used to support that using bots doesn't violate the terms and conditions of the online system, simply because it is not a "member"...any more than an associate does when they are not a member either.

Again, I support anyone who wants to share frustration with DVC to work to fix things if they deem them to be problem. I am just simply not at a point where I think that a bot program is any less fair than any of the other things happening out there with computers that you one owner a slight edge than the other...as I shared in my example above regarding work vs home servers and speeds.

 

[Tatebeck]

To be fair, the comment regarding associates was in response to the rules you posted that had the word member, and since a bot is not a member, it should not be allowed to be used.

Yes, associates are humans, and not computrers, but it was used to support that using bots doesn't violate the terms and conditions of the online system, simply because it is not a "member"...any more than an associate does when they are not a member either.

Again, I support anyone who wants to share frustration with DVC to work to fix things if they deem them to be problem. I am just simply not at a point where I think that a bot program is any less fair than any of the other things happening out there with computers that you one owner a slight edge than the other...as I shared in my example above regarding work vs home servers and speeds.

Associate is short for associate member... So that makes that person a type of member who is able to book. A program is not a person and cannot be a member! The link to the FAQ is clarifying the different MEMBER types...

 

[Sandisw]

Associate is short for associate member... So that makes that person a type of member who is able to book. A program is not a person and cannot be a member! The link to the FAQ is clarifying the different MEMBER types...

I stand corrected then on that point. I apologize. Still don't think those rules prevent the use of any and all computer programs to aid in the booking...which has nothing to do with DVC not trying to make them less easy to use.

 

[Tatebeck]

I stand corrected then on that point. I apologize.

Thank you, I felt like I was going crazy for a second

 

[Tatebeck]

Just curious then, do you think that programs can become members? Or that you don't have to be a type of member to book?

 

[crvetter]

I stand corrected then on that point. I apologize. Still don't think those rules prevent the use of any and all computer programs to aid in the booking...which has nothing to do with DVC not trying to make them less easy to use.

The general terms and conditions of the online component of the Disney sites is very strict that accessing the APIs through unauthorized means can lead to your account access being blocked. Now this is general across all the go.com domains but not sure they have applied it to the DVC site.

However, I do know that plenty (I think all at this point) of the instant notification DVC availability sites have gotten cease and desist letters from DVC for using the API in unauthorized ways and the threatened their personal DVC accounts would lose access to the booking system.

Edit: they did threaten people last year about using the APIs in unauthorized means for booking fast passes. Which was thought to be against StandySkipper.com but I think that site might still be running.

 

[Sandisw]

The general terms and conditions of the online component of the Disney sites is very strict that accessing the APIs through unauthorized means can lead to your account access being blocked. Now this is general across all the go.com domains but not sure they have applied it to the DVC site.

However, I do know that plenty (I think all at this point) of the instant notification DVC availability sites have gotten cease and desist letters from DVC for using the API in unauthorized ways and the threatened their personal DVC accounts would lose access to the booking system.

Edit: they did threaten people last year about using the APIs in unauthorized means for booking fast passes. Which was thought to be against StandySkipper.com but I think that site might still be running.

With that languge, and assuming it does apply to DVC, then yes, this would be the support one would need to confront DVC with to say that bot program violates the company's overall policy.

Great find!!!

 

[crvetter]

With that languge, and assuming it does apply to DVC, then yes, this would be the support one would need to confront DVC with to say that bot program violates the company's overall policy.

Great find!!!

They actually did some things a couple years back to make it harder on the bots. A couple years ago you could click “search” before 7 am and it would revalidate the booking window when you click “book”. However, now it validates only once when you click “search” so if you click that at 6:59 it will say you aren’t able to book if you then click book at 7:01.

You must refresh the search on or after 7:00. This would slow down any more simple bots that are using the actual site code. Granted only in a minor sense, and adds some randomness to when the data loads on the users end. Whereas before you could get through that few minutes prior to 7 am.

But all in all I’m not sure how much the bots are the issue. But I do think there are issues and I’ve seen some active measures that don’t get much publicity on the boards that DVC did to shut down some unauthorized uses of the API.

 

[mistysue]

So then, my guests and renters couldn't use the online check-in and HAVE to stop at the desk? Even so, would the owner that is renting would simlpy tell his clients that if they don't say they know him, that DVC will cancel the reservation...would the renter really know the actual rules, or even care? And why would the front desk even care, they don't work for DVC, they work for Disney Resorts. Have you ever seen how messed up your points can get by the front desk if they've had to modify/upgrade your room because it had a maintancne issue?

Where did I say that? I don't think it is that outlandish to say a group has to stop at the check in desk during their stay, and answer the question of whether they are renting or staying in a room of a member they know. It could include the explanation that this does not put their reservation at risk. Renters are less likely to lie than corporations who own, and this would give DVC a valuable data set.