Vet backs off attack on Kerry's War Record

[jennyanydots]

I knew there was a reason I like John McCain.

 

[WillyJ]

I have a correction to make and one more bit of very interesting info Maggie found before calling it a night.


I said earlier that the "Swift Boat" site did not have the full text of Kerry's 1971 speech posted there. . and while it's true they don't; they do have a link buried in the bottom of the main text Maggie saw and I missed that goes to a site called WinterSoldier.com which it touts as the place to find out all the facts on Kerry's record. . and on that site there is link to the speech.

So while technically I was right, I wanted to make sure to correct any false impression I innocently left.


Oh, and the other thing Maggie noticed (sharp girl, eh? ) that i didn't.. .


WinterSoldier.com comes up in the browser as "http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/"


Freepnet. . . as in Free Republic Network. . as in the Freepers.


The press is treating these people seriously and they are getting all their "facts" from a Freeper site????



Okay, now I really do need to go lie down . .

 

[peachgirl]

I applaud John McCain as well. If anyone knows what it's like to be on the receiving end of Rove's tactics, he does.

What's sad is that so many people, who if it were anyone but Kerry, would be appalled at the idea of trashing someone who had served their country during the Vietnam era, don't give a second thought about buying this trash...hook, line and sinker.


I hope it continues to fall apart and these people are proven to be what they are...a bunch of opportunists looking to make a buck.

Why Bush allows such tactics to go on are beyond me, he is certainly capable of putting a stop to it or at least condemning as strongly as McCain did. His campaign's response wasn't nearly enough. They claim they won't attack Kerry's war record, but they sure as hell don't mind if someone else does.

Anyone who gives these people a dime of their money is a fool.

And no, I don't give a rat's patooty about whether Michael Moore is worse, just as bad or anything else. I'm sick of the "he did it so it's ok for us to" crap.

 

[jennyanydots]

next we'll be hearing it all from Matt Drudge...

 

[Tiziminchac]

There has been a lot of stuff about this in the media lately. So I had to look into some of this myself. I checked out the sites mentioned in this post. Maybe these are biased accounts of Kerry's war and post-war activities, maybe they're not. I wish the media would look into it more. If Kerry wants to campaign on his military record maybe it should be scrutinized. The information I used below is from a timeline I found on www.wintersoldier.com I'm still going to keep looking though. There's always more sides to every story.

Originally posted by WillyJ
So when I see statements on the "Swift Boat" site like:

"John Kerry and the VVAW worked closely with America's wartime enemies, arranged multiple meetings with the North Vietnamese and Vietcong leadership, and consistently supported their positions. . ."


. . two things immediately come to mind:

1) That's one hell of accusation to make- it's treason and punishable by death. . . and just imagine what could happen when they present those facts!

That's hardly a false accusation. The VVAW leadership had more than one meeting with leaders from North Vietnam.
August, 1971 -- VVAW Executive Committee member Joe Urgo travels with other antiwar leaders to North Vietnam, where he meets with Prime Minister Pham Van Dong and others. According to FBI records, (see PDF file) Urgo makes the following proposals to the communist leaders: 1) that the VVAW make tapes to be broadcast over Radio Hanoi to get U.S. troops to stop fighting, and 2) to send a VVAW delegation to Hanoi in the near future.

Early November, 1971 -- According to FBI records, (see PDF file) Al Hubbard meets with the North Vietnamese and Vietcong delegations in Paris. Hubbard's trip comes in response to an invitation to "VVAW, Communist Party (CP) USA, and left wing group in Paris, name unrecalled," and is financed by the Communist Party USA.

Originally posted by WillyJ
Well, I'll save you the suspense- Kerry and his fellow vets went to Paris and met with Viet leaders in an attempt to secure release of the POWs. . the same leaders Kissinger met with and negotiated with on behalf of Nixon. . .

January 3, 1970 -- Kerry is discharged from active duty.

February 13, 1970 -- Candidate Kerry tells the Harvard Crimson, "I'm an internationalist. I'd like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations," and that he wants "to almost eliminate CIA activity."
Some things never change.

February, 1970 -- CCI co-sponsors its first "commissions of inquiry" in Toronto and Annapolis MD, and begins providing accounts of war crimes to the press. During the next few months, the CCI holds events in Springfield Massachusetts, Richmond, New York City, Buffalo, Boston, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, and Portland Oregon.

March, 1970 -- Kerry drops out of the Fourth District congressional race to make way for antiwar activist Father Robert F. Drinan, dean of Boston College Law School, and later becomes chairman of Drinan's campaign. Drinan defeats pro-war incumbent Philip Philbin in the Democratic primary and goes on to win the general election.

May 7, 1970 -- Kerry appears on The Dick Cavett Show for the first time, speaking in opposition to U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

May 23, 1970 -- Kerry marries Julia Stimson Thorne in New York.

Late May, 1970 -- John and Julia Kerry travel to Paris on a private trip. Kerry meets with Madam Win Thi Binh, the Foreign Minister of the Provisional Revolutionary Government of Vietnam (PRG) -- the political wing of the Vietcong -- and with representatives of Hanoi who were in Paris for the peace talks.
Seems like one romantic honeymoon to me. Ain't nothing like the Vietcong in the springtime.

June, 1970 -- Kerry joins Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a national veterans group that is part of the Peoples Coalition for Peace and Justice. The PCPJ is a broad coalition of local and national organizations, including the Communist Party, USA, "committed to conducting demonstrations aimed at ending the war in Indochina, and poverty, racism and injustice at home." The VVAW, CCI and PCPJ all have headquarters at 156 Fifth Avenue in New York City. VVAW Executive Secretary Al Hubbard, a former Black Panther, is also on the coordinating committee of the PCPJ. Hubbard soon appoints Kerry to the VVAW's Executive Committee, bypassing the normal election process.

 

[jennyanydots]

the site you found is sponsored by the Freepers, Tiziminchac. anything published by "Free Republic" is pure "spin". notice how it's all innuendo, with few links to any factual source.

 

[jennyanydots]

here's what I found on snopes

 

[year2late]

Thanks for the link Dotty.


Folks are entitled to feel bad about Kerry's Viet Nam war protesting. Frankly, I think a VN war vet is uniquely qualified to protest the VN War.

I am trying to get the point, a veteran should not be allowed to speak out against a war he has been in? Doesn't that sound like the blind obedience that is expected from folks in Saddam's regime?

John McCain showed alot of class denouncing the ad.

 

[Saffron]

Tiziminchac - I linked on that site .. Winter Storm, from the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth site. I was very pleased to find the link on their site. I thought SBVFT was giving a V V A W link to the public to show the "other side" of Kerry, like as if they themselves were trying to be as fair as possible and show an unbiased opinion. The reason I thought that is because Winter Soldier was a term given to Kerry and a group of Vietnam Veterans Against the War members when they met in Detriot in 1971, to get their accounts of the war heard, so when individual members met before Congress and other organizations, reporters, etc. they had accounts of the war to share besides their own. What a suprise to find such an unbiased link on SBVFT!

So ... I followed the link ... which took me to a page that had the entire testimony, all 32 pages, of Kerry's testimony before the Senate commision back in 1971! Even though I saw or heard (all the meeting was audio tape but not video taped) the meeting on C-Span back in this winter/spring, it was refreshing to read it again (but I don't think the SBVFT wanted it to be refreshing ). But ... I kept seeing these derogatory links about Kerry to the left and the right of the transcript. It didn't make any sense that those links would be on what I thought was a V V A W site. So ... I tired to click on the home page. Nothing. There was no home page. I kept trying and trying but there was no home page. There was nothing to tell you about the site I was visiting other than what was on the page I was reading.

So ... I looked up in the browser window and saw the address. I adjusted the adress in my browser to get to THAT home page, the page that was hosting Winter Storm.com and it took me to the Freepers site! I was shocked! Not really, I knew something was fishy, I guess I was just disgusted. I *think* The Freepers tried to disguise that webpage, Winter Storm, as a site that the V V A W would have some sort of connection to by calling it Winter Storm.

That would be like the Democrats linking unsuspecting people to Michael Moore's site who was trying to pass it off as a Bush site.

And honestly ... I didn't even know who the Freepers were until last night. WillyJ, my SO, took me through and showed me some of the things they write and THEN I was truly shocked! The Freepers are about as radical to the right as the anarchists are to the left.

In my opinion, after pulling a stunt like that, the SBVFT lost all credibility to me. I'll never trust another thing they throw out there without dissecting it first. I'll read and and hear their point of view, but I'll dissect it to find out what it's made out of.

You can believe what you want, but I bet if you dissect that time line, you'll find that Kerry and his fellow Americans, not just V V A W members, met with people in Paris, for peace talks, with our government's knowledge, consent and possibly members of our government. I wouldn't believe a Freeper for anything after the filth I read that they spew about.

This is just my opinion, and how my brain works. I like to know why, how, who, what. That's why I'm no good at math. Math just is, there is no why, how or who, you just have to know that 2 + 2 = 4. I like to get to the bottom of things, I like to know how things work, that's why I love biology and chemistry. I truly like to look at all sides of something to find out about it.

When I read something about someone, that the person didn't tell me directly, whether it be John Kerry, George Bush, someone here on the DIS or even a family member, I want to know the truth. I want to look for the most unbiased, factual information I can if I can't hear it directly from that person themselves. In Kerry's case I don't want to hear anything from the radical right or left wing organizations. Sometimes in this day and age it's hard to find the truth without lots and lots of digging and I get too lazy. But ... not when I'm passionate about a subject.

When I'm passionate about a subjet ... like the Vietnam War and the veterans that served there (no matter which side of the political beam they fall on about the war), the MIA's, the POW's, the nurses, the history of the country, the Vietnamese people pre and during the American occupation, the politics surrounding the war, etc. I want the truth as best as *I* can see it. I don't want to rely on conjecture, speculation or opinions if I don't have to. Right now I'm passionate about Kerry's service to this country during his Vietnam war days and afterwards. Not only because I'm going to be voting for him in the fall and I want to know who I'm voting for, but because of all the people who are trying their hardest to discredit him. I want to know for myself what and who that Vietnam Veteran is, not who the politician is. And I would be going that distance for any Vietnam Veteran that was put in the position he's being put in. And honestly? I don't care about Bush's military record, one way or the other, because he didn't serve in Vietnam. If any other questions are raised about his record and if I become interested in knowing the truth about them, I'll do the same sort of research I am on Kerry and I won't listen to the extreme left.

I hope you know what I mean. Sometimes I don't do so well getting my thoughts across on the net, in writing. And I ramble.

 

[MJames41]

Willy, thanks for the link. As for what was said, as long as Kerry put it in a heresay role, it isn't as offensive as if he had put it in a role of he actually saw it. Although the question would then come up why is he admitting heresay into the Congressional Record (to me this is worse than quoting another country's intelligence report that they back up, but thats my personal opinion).

It doesn't anger me that he said what he said, but I would personally call into question his motives about what he said. He has the right to do it, but the question is should he. I have the right to walk around town in a swimsuit, but the shape I'm in it wouldn't be a pretty site.

Others, who were part of the Vietnam War, might be more easily offended since it would be closer to them. Just my thoughts.

 

[faithinkarma]

Great investigating Saffron ! And, even better, you gave a great synopsis of your journey.

I wonder if in years to come people will be remembering this as the election that was influenced by the internet, in the same way they always refer to the Kennedy/ Nixon election as the first that was influenced by television?

 

[Saffron]

MJames41 -- you make some good points! I agree with you that other Vietnam veterans might find his actions and words offensive since they were closer to the situation. And the point about hearsay being admitted into Congressional record is a good point too!

faithinkarma --- that's an interesting point, about the election and the Internet. I wonder if it will? I just love the Internet! It's like a giant research library, playground, coffee cafe right at my fingertips! I get lost in cyber land all the time! I start out looking for one thing, then follow a zillion links in a bazillion different directions!

And thank you about the research. I know lots of others have and will do the same thing, but I know for a fact that I can ramble like no other!

 

[Tiziminchac]

Originally posted by Saffron
Sometimes in this day and age it's hard to find the truth without lots and lots of digging and I get too lazy

If that isn't the truth! I've spent hours looking into this and I must say that there is an avalanche of BS out there! No offense to jennyanydots, but the site she gave didn't impress me much. Nor did the official VVAW site. I would really like to find the truth behind this ...
August, 1971 -- VVAW Executive Committee member Joe Urgo travels with other antiwar leaders to North Vietnam, where he meets with Prime Minister Pham Van Dong and others. According to FBI records, (see PDF file) Urgo makes the following proposals to the communist leaders: 1) that the VVAW make tapes to be broadcast over Radio Hanoi to get U.S. troops to stop fighting, and 2) to send a VVAW delegation to Hanoi in the near future.
And the fact that Jane Fonda was involved makes me leery. But I will continue to do my own investigation. And the idea that this organization got to the point where they were discussing assassinating U.S. politicians is disturbing. Thankfully Kerry left the organization at this point. Too many people seem to think that their vote doesn't matter or won't make a difference. I feel just the opposite. And even though I'm already leaning to a certain candidate, I want my vote to be an informed one. Anything can happen in the next few months.

 

[faithinkarma]

One thing we have to remember is that the swiftvets are not attacking Kerry for what he did after he came home. We can speculate to this being their motive. But, even if one comes to the conclusion that they have a legitimate gripe there, the fact that they chose to attack him on another front, that specifically of his service, makes their veracity even more dubious to me.

It should be noted what General Franks had to say on this issue today:


"Asked specifically about allegations that Kerry fabricated some of his combat record, Franks said, "Yeah, I think it is hyperbole."
"For some reason we've fallen pray to a notion that says there has to be vitriol on order to simply say, I support Sen. Kerry, I support George W. Bush to remain president for the next four years."

Asked point blank if Kerry was qualified to be Commander-in-Chief, Franks said, "Absolutely."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/8/104550.shtm...

 

[Saffron]

Well here's my take on this, this is how I look at it:

August, 1971 -- VVAW Executive Committee member Joe Urgo travels with other antiwar leaders to North Vietnam, where he meets with Prime Minister Pham Van Dong and others.
I would want to find out who those other antiwar leaders were. Were they government officials, were they other Vietnam veterans that have opposing views of the V V A W, were they other V V A W members, were they mothers, fathers, sisters, wives? Who were they? I would start with the date and the meeting and work backward from there, trying to figure out what the meeting was, and who all attended.



According to FBI records, (see PDF file) Urgo makes the following proposals to the communist leaders: 1) that the VVAW make tapes to be broadcast over Radio Hanoi to get U.S. troops to stop fighting, and 2) to send a VVAW delegation to Hanoi in the near future.

This looks a little suspicous to me, but I can have whacked out ideas. As far as I know, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, the FBI investigates people and activities inside our country. So ... how and why would the FBI have a file about what happened at that meeting in North Vietnam? What do the FBI files say? Why not quote them? Why are there not CIA files, doesn't the CIA investigate activities that go on outside our country? I would start by reading the FBI file (but I would try to get it from a different source or at least one other source to compare to that source ) then go from there. I'm bored, maybe I can help. Unless I get lost on something else that I find interesting.

Now I have to go on the V V A W site and see what the assassination talk was all about! I never heard of that!

And Jane Fonda? What I'm about to say is very un-liberal of me, but how I feel. She made a fool out of herself with her Marilyn Monroe-esqe games in North Vietnam with the North Vietnamese while our men and Vietnamese men, women and children were dying. While I can almost understand why she did it, I disagree with her doing it ... I'm all for free speech. I think she just showed a lack of taste and her antics backfired on those of us who wanted the war to end.

 

[Saffron]

I so agree faithinkarma! That's exactly what started my "investigation" into Kerry's military service. The fact that people, not only the SBVFT, but others, are trying to disparage Kerry's military service, wounds, medals, etc. makes me a little ill.

I believe Bush himself said he would not question Kerry's military service.

But I agree with James and others (in other threads) when they say they understand other Vietnam veterans being angry about his conduct and words after the war. I understand another veterans view point. I may not agree, but I understand. And I think that may be fueling the fire for some.

 

[jennyanydots]

snopes dispels urban legend. snopes doesn't follow a political spin.

you want to believe a freeper site -- where spin is the order of the day -- go right ahead. nothing I could post will change your mind.

I say go McCain, give these guys hell for disparaging Kerry's war record. you don't like what he did after the war, aim your comments where they belong. his testimony is a matter of public record.

 

[faithinkarma]

I agree with jennyanydots about snopes. They are the accepted site for the truth about urban legends.

 

[Bobbles]

Here is another interesting link to a non-partisan site that I like to see once in a while.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

Beware of emails also!

 

[Tiziminchac]

Originally posted by jennyanydots
you want to believe a freeper site -- where spin is the order of the day -- go right ahead. nothing I could post will change your mind.

I don't know what freeper is. Yet. And I'm not expecting anyone to change my mind. That's my job! I'm interested in your opinions though.