Very stupid beginners question. RAW.

eliza61

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So I'm getting the hang of my new DSLR and I'm shooting almost all the time in manual, although I'm trying to get the hang of night time shots.

Anyhoo, I keep reading about shooting in RAW as opposed to JPEG. All I really know is that jpeg is the file extension when you want to post pictures.

Sorry if this is an extremely stupid question but what exactly does RAW do and why is it better to shoot in RAW?
 
First of all, it's not a stupid question at all! You sound willing to learn, and asking questions is always one of the best ways to do that.

So I'm getting the hang of my new DSLR and I'm shooting almost all the time in manual, although I'm trying to get the hang of night time shots.

Small piece of advice - shooting in manual is admirable if you're taking the time to learn what aperture/shutter relationships mean, and what settings are appropriate for a given lighting situation. But learning about cameras also involves learning how to control them and get the most out of them in every mode...and knowing when to use a given mode. Shooting in manual 100% of the time won't necessarily get you better results or make you a better photographer - but it can be a great learning tool if you learn from the trial and error. But knowing when to take advantage of the camera's abilities, exposure and drive systems, and focus systems, and when not to, will define your excellence in photography.

Anyhoo, I keep reading about shooting in RAW as opposed to JPEG. All I really know is that jpeg is the file extension when you want to post pictures.

There are hundreds of image file formats out there in the world - don't go looking too hard or you'll make your head spin with options! However, it is generally accepted that JPG is the most common and most used of compressed image formats for displaying and sharing photos.

Sorry if this is an extremely stupid question but what exactly does RAW do and why is it better to shoot in RAW?

A suggestion here, that I hope you will be able to keep coming back to for assurance and clarity: You will see a great many suggestions from other photographers about the superiority of RAW, some will be reasonable and technical and tell you all the reasons it is better, and some can get a little insulting and unreasonable and state that anyone not shooting RAW is somehow inferior, more ignorant, incapable, or simply not a good photographer. And surely some JPG shooters may snap back and occasionally try to tell you RAW isn't really any better than JPG. Try to filter through all of that - and remember one important thing: BOTH ARE FINE AND VIABLE FORMATS, THAT REMAIN A CHOICE FOR EVERY PHOTOGRAPHER TO USE - NEITHER MAKE YOU A BETTER PHOTOGRAPHER OR A SUPERIOR PERSON. Through whatever follows, remember this.

RAW is (mostly and usually) an uncompressed image format. When you shoot a JPG with your camera, you snap the shutter, and the camera starts going to work applying 'processing' to the photo: how much contrast to apply, what tone curve to use, what white balance to choose, how much sharpening to apply, etc so that the end result is a finished, presented photograph, ready to share with the world. When the camera makes the choices, it tosses out the unused choices...once a tone curve is applied, it can't be changed to a different tone curve, once white balance has been chosen at tungsten, it can't be changed to 'daylight', and so on. RAW keeps all that information, giving you an essentially unprocessed photo (you may see a processed result on your camera screen, but that's a presentation jpg using the camera settings to show you something on screen). It's up to you and your RAW conversion software to then to process the photo on your computer. You take all that information, and decide what tone curve, color, saturation, contrast, sharpness, white balance, etc to apply to the photo. The 'default' settings you had in the camera may present themselves in your RAW processor initially, and it is possible to simply process the RAW photo at the default settings, but if you want to make changes to those settings, you can. All of the processing is done by you, at the computer, rather than in the camera by the camera.

Now note two things: Some folks will mention that you can process a JPG too - and indeed you can. The difference is, you are starting with the final output that came out of the camera with all of the camera's processing settings already applied - you can't UNDO settings and redo them differently, you can only process from that result forward - altering it from where it is. There's decent heaadroom to make changes to a JPG and improve them, but a RAW will always have significantly more headroom since you can unapply any camera processing and start from scratch.

Some folks will mention that the JPG is like a microwave dinner, or pre-prepared meal and you have no input or ability to decide what your photo looks like - that superior photographers want to control the output of the photo and JPG is for ignorant button pushers with no understanding of photography. However, even using in-camera processing, you have significant control over how that JPG comes out of the camera to begin with...making the right settings in the camera, and choosing the right white balance and exposure while shooting, can give you results out of the camera that are precisely what you wanted and save having to do any (or as much) processing afterwards. You can choose your camera's JPG tone curve, the level of contrast, the level of sharpness, the color profile, the saturation that it will apply. You can set the white balance to presets or manually before you shoot. You control the exposure, and whether to under- or overexpose as you see fit. You can apply dynamic range optimization in camera, or use advanced features like in-camera stacking or HDR merging. Shooting in JPG doesn't have to involve being a snapshooter and having no input over your image.

RAW is unquestionably a better format for post-processing, since it is an uncompressed format that contains all of the photographic information with nothing thrown out and no camera settings applied - all the options within the camera are instead up to you to apply in the computer. JPG is an option for those who would prefer to either let the camera make some processing decisions to reduce the amount of time they spend doing it themselves, or would like to set up their camera exactly the way they like it to get excellent JPGs out of the camera that they can enjoy without requiring extensive post processing to fix or correct. Both are fine options, both are used by excellent and professional photographers alike, and both should remain a viable choice for you to decide which is more to your personal preferences.
 
RAW preserves more data, giving you more latitude to make changes and fix issues in post processing. The files are much larger and take more room to store, both in memory cards and computer hard drives.

I used to think that RAW was only for really experienced photographers who knew much more than I. My goal was to get to a point where I too chould shoot in RAW. Since then I realized that the most experienced photographers probably didn't have to fix as many issues as the rest of us! So now I shoot in RAW, and my goal is to get good enough to one day go back to JPEG! :lmao:

Really, it just maintains more data, allowing you to later make decisions the camera makes for you when you shoot JPEG. I wish I had starting RAW years ago so I could go back and make some of those images better.

And Justin is absolutely right. Shooting in Manual is great when you need to, but the real trick is to learn when that is. I swap back and forth between shutter and aperture priority mostly. Occaionally I even put it in program mode when I want to focus on the experience more instead of the camera.
 
Both formats have advantages and disadvantages. You have to weigh those and go with what works for you.

RAW makes it easier to make global changes very quickly to an image. Which is the main reason I shoot RAW. You can get to the exact same end result with a RAW file or a JPEG if you know how, but it takes a lot more editing skills to get there with a JPEG.
 

Anyhoo, I keep reading about shooting in RAW as opposed to JPEG. All I really know is that jpeg is the file extension when you want to post pictures.

Sorry if this is an extremely stupid question but what exactly does RAW do and why is it better to shoot in RAW?

RAW is the native format. When your camera records a photo, everything it knows is put into the RAW file.

A JPEG is a compressed image based upon the information captured in the RAW file. It has less information and is meant to be a final product. That's why you post it online or use it in other computer programs. It's thinner, lighter, and just shows the finished product.

If your camera only records a JPG, it still captures everything that would go into the RAW file. However, it throws that information away after it compresses things down to a JPG file. Also, it applies some final editing to enhance colors, change it to Black & White, and sharpens the image. Once it's done with those edits, the rest of the data gets chucked out and the camera only saves the JPG. If you have modes like Vibrant or B&W on your camera, that's how it decides to process the final JPG.

The good part of the JPG is that it's small, so you can take many more photos on the same card. A lot of sports shooters use JPG.

The downside of the JPG is that you have much less information to change things in post-processing. It doesn't mean you can't do some changes, but you don't have as much data to use and your results may be limited.

RAW files don't add any edits to the final image because...well, it's not final. You're telling the camera to save every bit of data and that you will make the adjustments later in post-processing. Many photographers prefer this choice because it allows them to recover from some exposure errors, and also because it lets them make an artistic decision as to how the finished image should appear.
 
Hi Eliza, first let me say that you have some of the best Disers answering your question. All of these folks have helped me get better and they have great advice. Follow it. I'm semi new to the world of "better" photography and have been shooting seriously for only about a year or so. I've asked the question about RAW as well, and I've asked about keeping the RAW photos once I've post processed my shots and turned them to jpegs (keep 'em). So I think I might know where you're coming from. Since I wouldn't dream of giving any different advice than Mom2rtk, Zackiedog, Photo Chick or Wbeem(cause they're awesome) :worship: I'll tell you a true story from last summer to help give you some insight.

I was going to shoot everything in RAW so I could post process more elements. I learned through trail and error that I couldn't make all the adjustments to my photos if they came out as jpegs. Being a newer DSLR person, and an idiot, I didn't change my setting from jpeg to RAW before I hit the parks. While on Buzz the ride broke down but the scores kept registering so all of us fired away until my entire group had 999,999 on our counters. I got great shots of everyone posing close to their scores with the "thumbs up" thing going on. I knew I would be able to clear up all the noise from the high ISO setting in post since I THOUGH I was shooting in RAW. But when I got home....ooopps!!! The pictures were actually jpeg format and the noise reduction wasn't close to what I could have achieved had I shot in RAW. So the photos are too grainy and I'm bummed. I've captured some great photos in jpeg and RAW. But when it comes to post processing, I've found that RAW gives you a lot more room to edit. You can shoot in both, but think about how much you may want to play with the photo later. In my experience, RAW gives you more post processing options. Happy shooting!! :thumbsup2
 
I guess I'll add my two cents. Take it for what it's worth.

Sure, you'll get some "saves" in pp. But it will come at a bit of a price. RAW files are huge and you'll need to learn how to manage them (assuming you have the space to begin with) as well as how to manage the conversion process. It can be really frustrating sometimes depending on how savvy you are with software and technology. At minimum it adds extra time to your workflow with each and every picture you process. You'll need to ask yourself how much you enjoy the post processing piece of it as part of the whole photography experience.

I found I hated it. :lmao: I mean, being new to photography and/or DSLR use means you already have a lot to learn as it is: 1) principles of photography, 2) the camera itself and 3) post processing. Each one in and of itself is challenging. Adding that extra layer to the post processing piece makes things that more difficult - as a beginner. (Remember that many of the people here and on other photography boards are old hands at this and extremely techincally savvy.)

Nonetheless, like a good Doobee I fiddled around with it and spent hours upon hours converting RAW files. Shots from one baseball game could easily take me 4 hours or more. :headache: Disney trips? Days; weeks even. :headache: :headache: I never even finished my last TR. My DH was getting aggravated as our computer was getting jammed with RAW files. I think we wound up buying at least two external hard drives along the way just for pictures, lol.

But then something beautiful happened. I realized that the pictures I was taking didn't need to be processed much if at all. I liked them just how they were. :idea: If that was the case, then why was I spending all this time converting files? I'd also upgraded to a camera whose strength was JPEGs, so between these two things I went back to shooting JPEGs and haven't looked back. I feel like a big weight has been lifted off my shoulders! I can still pp to add a little oomph if I want to, but it's optional.

In retrospect, I think I did learn a lot from the time I spent with RAW files, as Justin alluded to above when he talked about knowing how to get your settings right in camera, so my time wasn't for naught. All experiences do become part of the learning curve. And realistically it is one of my goals to get better at using software and advanced pp because I think it is necessary to become a well rounded photographer these days. Now that my brain isn't oversaturated with learning just principles of photography and my camera, I think there's a little room left in there for learning more about pp. (Realistically I can manage ok but it's not something I really enjoy - that I know about myself.) It is not uncommon, either.

If I had some super important shots I would probably go RAW. But for daily shots, I'll stick with JPEGs. For now, anyway. Hope this is helpful to someone!
 
Great advice from all the above posters.

I'm in the same camp and Pea-N-Me, shoot mostly jpg. I, too, found that the time spent in post processing was too much for my life. So, I've tried to focus (pun intended) on getting more things right before I release the shutter.

One of the nice features of the 7D is a little button on the back that allows me to shoot RAW+jpg one shot at a time without having to reset anything. As was pointed out above, when you know enough about your shooting to know when RAW may be useful, I can easily push the button and grab both.

It is possible to take great shots in both modes. I've won a photo contest on these boards with a jpg. It's really more about understanding the photographic fundamentals, and then deciding how much time you want to spend in the digital darkroom.

Enjoy your DSLR!

Boris
 
A very huge THANK YOU! I really can't thank all of you enough. So as I said I'm pretty "raw" LOL to the digital photography thing in the first place. I am having a lot of fun and if you guys ever hold a contest where the subject is plastic toy soliders in the back yard, I'm your gal. I've got a thousand shots of them as I was learning how the different apperature settings effect the shot.

For now I'll stick with Jpeg, I'm not really to the point where I'm worrying about post production.

Once again thanks and look for the next installation of "a very stupid beginners" question.
 
IF computer memory space is not a problem for you, then you may want to consider shooting what my camera calls RAW+. That is a JPEG and a RAW file. Besides memory, it will slow down your burst rate so it has some downsides. For me, it's the best of both worlds, I have the instant gratification of the JPEG and the RAW file for processing at a later date. I use the JPEG as my quick review file and my RAW files are my film negatives. Photography is a matter of compromises and this is my compromise. This may or may not work for you, it's just a thought.
 
IF computer memory space is not a problem for you, then you may want to consider shooting what my camera calls RAW+. That is a JPEG and a RAW file. Besides memory, it will slow down your burst rate so it has some downsides. For me, it's the best of both worlds, I have the instant gratification of the JPEG and the RAW file for processing at a later date. I use the JPEG as my quick review file and my RAW files are my film negatives. Photography is a matter of compromises and this is my compromise. This may or may not work for you, it's just a thought.

Ahh...I do the same thing. I shoot RAW and JPEG. I only really touch the RAW if my JPEG won't cut it.

And I do most of my shooting in manual ... mainly because I've so used to it now. I'm a control freak. :rotfl2:
 
I just wanted to say thank you to eliza61. I would have never asked this question because I didn't think I was even close to good enough to use it, but now I see anybody can use it. I love the post processing part of pictures so I am going to try it. Also, thanks to BorisMD. I didn't even realize I could do both with my 7D. The worst part is now I have to get another memory card before I go to Disney next month!
 
As long as you are talking memory cards, I suggest you look at the ones with a higher transfer speed. It will make downloading files off the card faster. I also recently authored a thread on USB card readers, and if you find that thread, you can see the card reader I ended up getting. It is definitely better than my old one for download speed.

Enjoy the 7D!

When's your trip in March? I'm going 3/20 -3/24 at BCV.

Regards,

Boris
 
We are going the 1st week in March! The countdown has been on since the middle of Dec!!!!

I am getting the 16GB 60mbs CF Sandisk card. I already have 1 and love it. I also just ordered a CF card reader. Hooking up the camera to the laptop has been EXTREMELY fast, but I'm sure it will save batteries by using a reader.

Any tips on the 7D? I have only had mine for a couple of weeks. I am a sports nut and hopefully getting into some sports photography.
 
The other feature of the 7D that I really like is using the "Q" button on the back. That gives you a quick overview of all the settings, and you can quickly change whichever settings you want without having to navigate a bunch of menus or buttons. It is helpful if you don't have all the control buttons memorized, or if you are checking a shot after the fact and it didn't turn out right -- you can see what your settings were and quickly correct (like when I accidentally left the ISO at 1600 or bumped one of the control wheels and didn't realize it).

Regards,

Boris
 
Everyone else seemed to cover the actual difference between RAW and a jpg, so I'll skip that and get to my own thoughts.

When I first got into photography, I heard the RAW vs jpg debate. People told me RAW was better, but honestly I wasn't a good enough photographer to understand why. Or I should rephrase that and say I wasn't a good enough photo editor to understand why. I'd shoot some in RAW, and get down to editing and not notice any difference. So I went back to jpg and called it a day.

And then over the years, my photography improved. My editing and knowledge of photoshop improved. So I tried to learn a little more about RAW and read about how others edited RAW images. I started shooting RAW more often and learned how to use the format to its full advantage.

Now I shoot almost exclusively RAW, with some exceptions like simple snapshots or other times when I know the images won't need much editing done, or if I don't want to spend a lot of time editing before I get to use the image. The power of a RAW image combined with Lightroom 3 (or PS) is amazing. But the key to getting to use that power correctly is knowing how to edit. Otherwise you're not going to get much from it (well, at least I didn't) and you may as well stick with jpg.

Did any of that make sense? In essence I'm saying I wouldn't worry much about RAW vs JPG until you're feeling pretty good about your photos and want to take the time to practice with processing RAW images, which it seems like you are since you asked in the first place. I would really recommend LR3 if you can afford it right now. It's the best RAW editor I've used and it's been a wonder for the organization of my pictures.
 
There is one final thought concerning RAW vs JPEG. Each time you save a file in the JPEG format, it re-compresses the image, throwing out just a little bit more each time you save it. So, if you need to edit a photo that is originally shot in the JPEG format, you may notice that the quality of the resultant picture isn't quite as good as the original - even if you performed just a minor crop. It gets pretty noticeable if you need to print larger photo, especially those you want to hang in your living room.

A RAW file cannot be changed, so you are always working with the original. When you save an edited RAW image out as a JPEG, it should have the same quality as if it came out of the camera as a JPEG. If you need to make another change to the RAW file, you are still working with the unaltered original. If you use a tool like Lightroom, you don't have to start from scratch either because all changes are just instructions that describe the changes you made.

I shoot RAW and I am not one that likes sitting around post processing when I could be doing something fun (think of a place on the east coast, down south, lots of things to do...) I've learned to seriously PP only those images that I decide to hang. I do a basic PP for those I want to post online or send to friends. The others, I tag for searching or throw away.
 
Haven't seen anyone mention this yet so here you go:

An advantage of RAW is that, due to it's "raw" nature, you can always go back to old -- even decades old -- photos and apply the newest, most modern image processing algorithms and techniques to your original unprocessed photos. With JPG, you get the image processing algorithm that your camera has in it today and that is it, you will never get a chance to use another one again.

The major image processing vendors like Adobe, Apple and Corel are all making constant advances in their image processing software. As newer methods come out, every picture you've shot in RAW can immediately benefit from the newer tech. All of your JPG images would be stuck in time, so to speak.
 
There is one final thought concerning RAW vs JPEG. Each time you save a file in the JPEG format, it re-compresses the image, throwing out just a little bit more each time you save it. So, if you need to edit a photo that is originally shot in the JPEG format, you may notice that the quality of the resultant picture isn't quite as good as the original - even if you performed just a minor crop. It gets pretty noticeable if you need to print larger photo, especially those you want to hang in your living room.

This is true - resaving JPGs over and over again can recompress each time, losing some quality each time. However, a good piece of advice for a JPG shooter is to always leave the 'original' JPG from out of the camera untouched. Open the JPG, make edits, and choose 'save as' so that the edited version is saved as a new file...the out-of-camera JPG is therefore untouched. You can open and close a JPG as many times as you want - it's only when resaving that you start to lose through compression. Leaving the original alone and always saving edits as new files means you can always go back to the JPG as it first came out of the camera to make a new edit.

Also, for those that don't know: JPG compression levels are actually editable. Most image editing programs allow you to set the compression level of the saved JPGs, from typical 10-12% compression loss to 0% compression loss, which is essentially lossless. Meaning the JPG itself has been compressed to begin with, but edits are saved without any additional compression. By always keeping out of camera originals, and saving edits as new files with minimal compression, you can work with JPGs and not lose any additional quality over what came out of the camera.

Just wanted to add that info on for those not as familiar with processing software settings or lossy compression!
 


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