Vegetarian ethical ? - long post

[kittythepoohbear]

Hi all! I don't post often on the community board but would like to discuss an important ethical issue I am dealing with right now. I would also like to ask for no flames please - I am very open to all opinions, but this is hard enough for me without the attitude I have gotten from some others (not on this board, but in conversation). TIA!
I have been a vegetarian for 10 years. I gave up eating red meat at 17 and everything else a year later. I never liked meat, although kinda liked poultry, and also love animals. I don't want animals to suffer unnecssarily and feel that many methods of conventional farming can be cruel to the animal. I also believe that as human beings, we have a duty to protect those creatures who cannot always defend themselves and have done what I can to support the environment and the humane treatment of animals. I must admit I was also a bit disgusted by the thought of eating something dead, so it wasn't 100% from an ethical standpoint. I never missed meat and do not use cosmetic or cleaning products tested on animals or buy leather except for one or two pairs of leather shoes. (I thought long and hard about leather shoes and came to the conclusion that it was ok, but that is another thread. ) I never imposed my vegetarianism on anyone, and believe that everyone has their own beliefs, but just didn't feel right about eating animals if I didn't have to, especially given the controversy behind factory farming.
Recently, I have started debating whether or not I should include fish in my diet. I have gained a lot of weight in 10 years, mainly from eating way too many carbs. I am honestly too lazy to cook fully balanced meals every day - too little time. I also have not been feeling too well for the last couple of years. Everything is ok medically, but I just don't feel well. I lack energy, have digestive problems, and suffer from headaches when I never did before. I am thinking this may be linked to a protein deficiency. I have started incorporating more tofu and beans into my diet, but I find myself craving fish. I almost caved and ate some Chilean sea bass at a restaurant, but didn't.
I also find that my ethical views are starting to shift. I am starting to accept the idea of eating animals that are raised on organic, family farms in an environment that takes the animals welfare into consideration. While I am not ready to eat beef and don't think I ever will be (never liked the meat), this is leading me to think I may be ready to eat some fish and maybe poultry as long as the animals are treated humanely. This is a very big deal for me and causing a lot of conflict.
I know that if I make this choice I cannot call myself a vegetarian which was something I proudly and strongly identified with for a decade. Also, this may seem hypocritical to my beliefs and I know will cause some debate amongst people I know. While others thoughts about me shouldn't affect me, it does. I have spoken about this to others and have gotten some support, but have also encountered some opinions that hurt. Someone very close to me who has always been extremely supportive but has strong political/moral views, when asked on their opinion, simply said "Being a vegetarian is morally wrong." I know this person said it half joking, but it still stung.
There are lots of vegetarians on this board - we have shared dining reviews and gushed over the tabouleh in Morroco - so I turn here to get some opinions and support. For those who became a vegetarian for ethical reasons, do you feel it is ethically acceptable to consume animals that were raised and treated humanely? Has anyone else gone through this ethical dilemma themselves. Even non-veggies opinions are welcomed, especially if you have some info on organic farming. Unfortunately, a lot of information out there is skewed in one direction or another and it can be difficult to differentiate truth from propaganda. I know that ultimately this is my own choice, but it really is haunting me.

Thank you for taking the time to read this terribly long post and for helping me out.

Kat

 

[wide awake]

This isn't meant as a flame...but you need to have enough confidence in your decisions to disregard what others think...if to you it is okay to eat animals raised in a humane environment, then go for it. Also...maybe find some other way to identify yourself...I eat everything but that isn't my claim to fame.

 

[Lisa F]

One of my best friends, who also lives in Queens, struggled with this for a while. She also ate way too many carbs (crap) as a vegetarian and was feeling sluggish, tired, unhealthy in general. When she started losing hair she went to her doctor and basically she was malnourishing herself. It doesn't help that she didn't really care for many vegetarian sources of protein (tofu okay occasionally, hates beans, not crazy about other meat substitute products). She started off by adding just fish back into her diet and a few months later poultry. She still won't eat beef or pork (pork for ethical reasons, apparently pigs are as smart as dogs and she feels you might as well be eating fido). She has a good sense of humor and will joke about how much more radical she was as a teen than she is now but I admire her for being able to make the adjustment. There is a reason that humans can process meat and if you're not going to be diligent about making up for the dietary shortcomings of cutting meat out of your diet, you have to ask yourself is it worth getting sick over. She doesn't even really look for organic chicken or anything like that but she won't eat anything that comes from an animal much bigger than a turkey.

edited to add: I think part of what comes with getting older and gaining maturity is able to see the world in shades of grey rather than black and white. It's not that you are wishy washy on your convictions, you have just been discovering that there are more factors that play into this decision than you previously realized.

 

[Barb D]

My DD12 is a vegetarian. She eats fish, because I strongly encourage her to. (I don't force her.) She did some research, and learned that this is called "pesco-vegetarianism."

I want her to eat fish just so that I know that she's getting some good, solid protein at least occasionally. She doesn't feel as bad about eating fish as other animals -- something about their brains. She's sick and sleeping now, but I'll get her to post when she's feeling better.

 

[DawnCt1]

In addition to the good advice you have already been given, you don't need to make a point to tell your friends. Its really something you can keep to yourself. If someone notices, all you have to say is after careful consideration, I have expanded my diet.

 

[luvmydogs]

Hi Kat,

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian of 25 years, and will pass no judgements, I promise!

I can only give you my personal reasons for being a veg., but freely admit that I could be viewed as a hypocrite on several issues (actually, I have been called that by those vegs. who are a bit more exclusive in their beliefs).

I eat no animal of any kind because I don't want a living, sentinent creature to die just for my nourishment or tastebuds. I actually started rebelling against my meat & potatoes parents as an animal-loving four year old, so obviously these feelings are strong and deep. I don't preach about my choice, and if I'm invited to someone's house for a meal, don't expect them to change their menu for me. In 25 years, I've gotten very good about eating around a main course of meat, and you probably wouldn't even realize that I've skipped it (or passed it along inconspicuosly to my dh). I've taken a little heat for my choises, usually from people who think I'm ridiculous for feeling the way I do--although I'm not sure why my not eating meat affects others' choices to do so. I only speak about it if asked, and don't prosthelitize. I follow my heart and my concious, and am happy with my decision. There have been vegs. who are a lot more strict in their practices who get on me about eating any animal products (eggs, dairy, honey), but I am comfortable in doing so, and let their comments slide.

Here is the issue with which I go back and forth: Leather. I *love* fashion, and this includes my leather shoes, suede skirt, hanbags, etc... Now, you'd never catch me in fur, but as I see leather as a by-product of the meat industry (which I know I won't stop), I feel OK wearing it. If it were an industry like fur--I would not wear leather. Now, are there holes in my beliefs--yep, and they have been pointed out to me many times and I give thought to them on occasion. But, what it comes down to for me, is comfort with my own decisions--if I can live with it or until am convinced otherwise, I live the way I do now without much of a second thought.

I think what's important, Kat, is that *you* are comfortable with *your* personal choices. There will always be others for whom you go too far ("Why do you care about animals that much--you're too sensitive!"); or for whom you don't go far enough ("I can't believe you eat fish--murderer!"). My advice to you would be to really think about your morals and ethics, and where your decision fits within that scope.

You'll get no flames from me whatever you decide--I admire you for your care and consideration.

 

[liamsaunt]

Kittythepoohbear:

I was a lacto-ovo vegetarian from the day I left for college. I never liked meat, never liked the idea that I was eating a living being, etc., and told my parents from age whatever, that when I left, I would not eat it any longer. And I stuck to that plan for many years. Towards the end of my vegetarianism, I was vegan for about a year and a half, but found I lost weight much too rapidly. I think that since I was in college and had limited funds, I could not finance the correct vegan diet.

Like you, I gave a lot of thought to the ways that animals are raised and fish are farmed. I got the ultimate bribe to expand my diet when my parents offered my DH and I a free honeymoon: on the condition that I try fish again.

It sounds odd, probably, but what they did was remind me how much I really liked the taste of fish. I did, but I had forgotten the pleasure I got from that taste over the years I was vegetarian (9 years).

Honestly, though, despite my efforts to be the greatest gourmand, I still don't like meat. I try a bite from time to time, but just don't like the taste--often, I can't swallow that one bite. Beef tastes like metal to me, for one instance. I do cook meat for my DH--but only organic, farm-raised meat, and that's at his request. Sometimes, he orders meat from a farm that does grass-fed beef, for example. I think it is important to always remember where your food comes from, whether it be meat or vegetable.

You should do whatever feels right for you, whether that be remaining a vegetarian, or eating steak at every meal, or something in between! After all, it's you (and your tummy) that ultimately benefit! Don't worry about what other people think.

 

[Chuck S]

Mom & I went vegetarian for a while, not for ethical reasons, but because we thought it would be healthier. After about a year, and after a blood work-up, the doctor told Mm to eat meat, her protien level had dropped too much.

You have to do what is heathliest for you, don't make any "apologies" for it. Everyones body processes food differently, and your nutritional needs have to be met.

 

[va32h]

I am honestly too lazy to cook fully balanced meals every day - too little time. I also have not been feeling too well for the last couple of years. Everything is ok medically, but I just don't feel well. I lack energy, have digestive problems, and suffer from headaches when I never did before.

Okay first, I would go see a doctor, and find out what is making you feel so badly. You can also ask your doctor for some healthy suggestions for losing weight.

Then, I would suggest that you learn how to cook balanced meals. There are lots of vegetarian cookbooks out there, and you can find them in the library, so it doesn't have to cost anything. You could probably find them online too, but I like having a book in hand when cooking. Cooking does not have to take a lot of time. Especially beans - you can toss those in the crock pot and let them slow cook all day.

I love carbs myself, that has been the hardest part of my new diet; but I have found that there are some tasty enough alternatives out there. And cooking can actually be fun.

 

[Sparx]

Your heath comes first. It comes before anyone or anything else. Don't hurt yourself over soemthing like this. You are getting headaches that you believe are linked to protien. Take a suplement or eat something rich in protien (I ate alot of peanut butter)

You seem to be having alot of issues just deciding on to eat fish or not. Do you believe that fish fit with the other animals you won't eat? Are they mistreated (I believe that that was what you said about eating them, correct me if I am wrong) Do you think you COULD eat a fish?

This is a touchy subject with most people.

I hate fish. Never eat it. I don't think I would be able to eat one if I had to. The smell of them makes me dry heave. But I don't discriminate against people who eat them or love them.

I was a vegetarian for a year(about). I never liked meat and I still don't. (I don't know all the technical terms for it so bear with me) I didn't eat any animals or animal by-products. I didn't wear leather or hide or anything like that. I love animals, and I still do, weather I eat poultry or wear a leather jacket. You will get no flames from me.

 

[Planogirl]

Good responses here. I just want to add to be sure to listen to your body. The signs are almost always there, many of us just don't listen.

I'm a terrible offender myself. I eat meat but feel awful when I eat most carbs. The trouble is that they taste good and they're easy. So I understand this portion of your problem quite well.

 

[grlpwrd]

Interesting.

On many fitness forums I frequent many of my fitness friends have resorted back to eating some lean meats and fish because of health concerns, such as iron and energy issues, but never the decision only based on time constraints. Yes, your health is foremost, though, and when you state that I lack energy, have digestive problems, and suffer from headaches when I never did before that is a red flag. You should consult with a nutritionist or dietician in addition to your dr. to give you an adequate check up and possibly make changes.

Of course, I encourage you to do all that you can to continue being vegetarian. There are many other cookbooks and sites for vegetarian meals and even recipes that use crockpots. Plus, lots of easy ethnic vegetarian recipes, too.

Ultimately, your decision has to be be your own, though. I struggle with myself shopping at WM because I have issues with them, but I am forced to buy some groceries there for our family's financial survival. You do what you gotta do.

GL!

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I also find that my ethical views are starting to shift

I agree that as you mature and your life experiences change, things you once held true can change as well. (I could site many examples in my own life, but I don't want to start any flame wars around here today, LOL ). Part of maturity is accepting these changes and learning how to reconcile them in your own life.

You truly don't owe an explanation to anyone. What you eat is your business. You will find that no matter where you travel in life and what stage you're at, others will have opinions about and sometimes take exception to something you believe in or are doing - it never ends. You learn to forge ahead despite those people. You will also find that sometimes it might be you who's giving unsolicited advice without even realizing it, thus offending someone else in the process. It's just the nature of people. Try not to worry about it. And if your friends are really giving you a hard time about it, then maybe it's time to widen your circle of friends.

As for the health part, you should make a doctor's appointment and have a check up to rule out other causes of your not feeling too well. Beginning a weight loss and exercise program with your doctor's blessing would go a long way to helping you feel better. If you decide you want some fish, have some fish, it's very healthy for you. I try to buy hormone free meat that is farm raised not only because of ethical concerns but because of health concerns (I buy hormone free milk as well). There has been a big push recently on cage free hens/eggs, you can see on the egg carton if they are cage free, maybe make a veggie omelet once in a while. Good luck to you. Let us know how you're doing.

 

[PrincessKitty1]

No flames from me. I've been lacto-ovo vegetarian since I was 14 years old (35 years ago!) but I am married to an omnivore. There are many shades of gray. I don't live up completely to what I consider my ideals (I have a lot of trouble finding shoes that fit--I have wierd feet--and have caved in and bought leather shoes) but I do the best I can. Keep your good-hearted intentions and do the best you can. It's better to eat humanely-raised animals than to eat meat from factory farms.

 

[Laura]

Okay first, I would go see a doctor, and find out what is making you feel so badly. You can also ask your doctor for some healthy suggestions for losing weight.

This is excellent advice. You may be low on iron or something like that. Protein is easy to get for vegetarians; iron is not so easy because the iron in non-meat sources is harder to absorb. Just a thought. If you haven't brought your ill feelings up with your doctor, it's a good idea to do so. And honestly, people gain weight because they eat too many calories and don't burn enough of them. I don't think being a vegetarian or a meat-eater really makes a difference in weight gain/loss as much as, say, extra-large portion sizes.

I have a friend who has been vegetarian for 14 years and last year has returned to being an omnivore. Am I disappointed? Yes, but it's her decision. I don't preach to meat-eaters. I was one for so long that it would be hypocritical. Besides, I'm also married to one! Being a vegetarian for me is only partly a moral decision, it was also a personal health and environmentalist decision. I feel that just because humans can eat meat doesn't mean we should. But the reasons for forgoing meat are different for all vegetarians and vegans. I would prefer if peope ate meat they would go for the organic, free-range type. But that's just me.

But I think you need to discuss your diet with your doctor or--preferably--a nutritionist, and make your decision for your own reasons.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

You know, I have found that not feeling well can be linked to your internal struggles. That is my main thing.

I am the opposite of you. I would like to be a vegetarian but too lazy to "go all the way".

My advice would be too accept your changes and not worry about others. Eat a Sea Bass, have some chicken if the mood strikes you. The only one keeping score is YOU!

Are you going thru a decade change???? Coming up on 30, perhaps???? Very, very common to be "reborn" at your decade change.

If someone asks you say that you have gone thru some changes recently. I guess "Own yourself!" Now that I am 40, I understand what that means. Didn't "get it" at 30, but I do at 40.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I can't say anything about the too many carbs causing your problems - but from my research as a vegetarian I am seriously doubting you are protein deficient. It is my understanding that in this culture - even with a vegetarian diet that is just not possible and is one of the GREATEST fallacies of vegetarianism. Basically, there are only 3 ways to be protein deficient 1. Be starving - as with those poor people you see in Third World countries. In our culture: 2. have a medical condition that causes such a deficiency 3. subsisit on a diet consisting SOLELY of junk food. Now there are some issues with vegetarianism - such as B vitamins - but that is if you avoid eggs/dairy as well.

I only say this because I am concerned that you may need to look further for an explanation - especially before making such a decision. I agree with everyone who has said you need to do what is right for you - there will always be people who take exception with your choices - and you will always not be doing enough or taking things too far....I get both!! I started out vegetarian for ethical reasons - but have stuck with it for health reasons - so I do occasionally have seafood - very rarely chicken...but find it is when I "cheat" that I don't feel well.

The hair and energy thing - are you sure you do not have any issues with your thyroid? I also agree it could be something other than physical - you are the best judge!!!

Good luck in finding your answers!!!!

 

[kittythepoohbear]

Thanks to everyone for their replies, support, and opinions. I know this is something I will have to mull over and decide for myself, but I don't have too many people in my inner circle so to speak who understand what a big deal this issue is. It really does help to hear from others who understand the issues at hand.
That intense craving I had for sea bass freaked me out (I never even had sea bass! Is it good?) and just the whole shift of ideas for me, not just vegetarianism but other things as well, can get a bit heavy sometimes. I will get my butt back to the dr. for a thorough exam and am willing to admit this may be more than a physical thing (yep, I am totally pushing 30 with all the baggage!). Until then, I am keeping my veggie ways and if the sea bass calls out to me again, I will decide then.
At least Mickey Bars are veggie, so I will just eat a lot of those!

Thanks again!

Kat

 

[nwdisgal]

I am not a vegetarian, but my best friend was for many years. He eventually incorporated meat when he started weight training and had a hard time building muscle without meats in his diet. At that point his muscle mass was more important to him than his personal feelings about meat. He too was somewhat conflicted about the decision.

Could you meet with a nutritionist who specializes in vegetarian diets? I know the food combinations are really tricky to realize all your nutritional requirements for vegetarians. Maybe there is something you can tweak in your existing diet without having to rely on consuming seafood for weight control, etc.

Good luck to you.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

.
That intense craving I had for sea bass freaked me out (I never even had sea bass! Is it good?) and just the whole shift of ideas for me, not just vegetarianism but other things as well, can get a bit heavy sometimes. I will get my butt back to the dr. for a thorough exam and am willing to admit this may be more than a physical thing (yep, I am totally pushing 30 with all the baggage!).

Get an exam and rework yourself for your next decade. Makes it a whole lot easier!!!