"Valid" identification necessary?

[HugsForEeyore]

I was almost thrown off the Amtrak AutoTrain over this issue. If you heard of the AutoTrain, it's the train where you can take your car with you. Last year, I arrived at the station in Sanford to take the train to Virginia, and the attendants loaded my car into the train. No problem.

Then I went to check in, and unfortunately I only had my expired license with me, as it expired 18 months prior. It has a photo, and my current one does not, so I prefer to carry the old one, and it's never been a problem. When I was showing the expired ID, the gal at the counter acted like she caught me committing a murder! She got very smug and said that this was not VALID ID, and I can't use it! She wouldn't let me board the train, even though my car was already on! She kept arguing that I needed VALID ID, but I didn't have anything else! I couldn't produce "valid ID" it out of thin air, and my current license was in my car on the train, inaccesible to me!

This went on and on for a few minutes, she demanding valid ID and me saying I have nothing else but the expired license. Finally, I demanded they unload my car (which would be a big pain for them, they would have to drive many cars backwards down the ramp to get to my car) and refund my money! Finally she "accepted" my expired license, berating me the whole time like I was a criminal. Whatever. I learned my lesson about expired licenses - NEVER USE THEM by themselves! I even cancelled the AutoTrain for my next trip after that one, since I didn't want to deal with them anymore.

But I got over it, I do take the train again nowadays. I check in with my current license (valid but no photo) along with my expired license (invalid but has photo) in hand! Usually the two together will be accepted!

 

[WebmasterAlex]

I really am a law professor and this post is meant to (1) encourage people to think critically and (2) to find some sort of cogent argument that I have missed somewhere.

I see what PP is saying about the fake IDs, but that isn't sufficient because there is nothing to stop older sister from (as you pointed out) getting a "replacement" or from getting a valid state ID in addition to the DL.

For purposes of this discussion, "rules are rules" is the equivalent of "Because I said so." It's not an argument, it's circular justification. It doesn't address the substance of the issue: is this a dumb rule/policy?

Now to the argument that it is no longer "valid." I ask valid for what? For driving? Yes, an expired license is no longer valid for driving, but that is not the purpose that the license is being used for in the bar or airport. The purpose of renewing a driver's license goes far beyond mere identification and may inquire into the person's fitness to operate a vehicle. States have people renew a driver's license to verify that the person is still at the same address, has adequate vision to safely operate a vehicle, and perhaps to verify that the vehicle operator still looks like his picture. But the purpose we're using it for in the airport and bar is different. What is my name? What do I look like? When was I born? With the exception of my picture, those other items aren't likely to change. The picture isn't likely to change for a while. Therefore I have no problem with Joe Smith getting on a plane with an expired license so long as it has an accurate picture and the name matches the one on his ticket.

Now, if I don't look like my license, please feel free to deny me boarding or refuse to serve me at the bar, but not on the basis of an arbitrary rule.

This is interesting, at least to me, can we continue?

As a law professor you asked the wrong question. A better question would be why do we need to show an ID at all? The answer is there is NO published legal requirement to show an ID to board an airplane.
Google FAA directive 65-05 which states that an ID is not required
Now I certainly would not reccomend showing up at the airport and telling them that you are flying without an ID according to 65-05, I am sure you are going to get hassled beyond belief. Some people have suceeded others have not.
On the other side, there is a "secret law" (no I am not kidding) that says you do have to show ID but you are not allowed to see it.
There is some case law on the subject and the latest looks like the id requirement is being upheld but not everywhere. For more information see here
http://papersplease.org/gilmore/index.html

 

[Imzadi]

In NY, it is so they can charge you some exorbitant fee (plus tax, of course) every few years to do anything.

No fun letting the ID be valid forever...they might run out of stuff to charge us for!!

Yeah, this is one of the reasons why I haven't switched my driver's license over. The few times I have rented a car in the past few years hasn't made it worth all the constant NYS renewal fees.

 

[MassJester]

I really am a law professor and this post is meant to (1) encourage people to think critically and (2) to find some sort of cogent argument that I have missed somewhere.

Ok, why not?

I see what PP is saying about the fake IDs, but that isn't sufficient because there is nothing to stop older sister from (as you pointed out) getting a "replacement" or from getting a valid state ID in addition to the DL.

Surely you know that rules/laws may be overbroad or under inclusive and still be valid. The state or federal government should not be required to narrowly tailor every rule to statutory perfection. Although you are correct that this rule does not prevent handing off the "old" ID after getting a replacement, it does prevent the handing off of expired ID, and so accomplishes a degree of security.

For purposes of this discussion, "rules are rules" is the equivalent of "Because I said so." It's not an argument, it's circular justification. It doesn't address the substance of the issue: is this a dumb rule/policy?

No, for the reason I offered above.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

In NY, it is so they can charge you some exorbitant fee (plus tax, of course) every few years to do anything.

No fun letting the ID be valid forever...they might run out of stuff to charge us for!!

On the same track, I was wondering about passports. I am getting passports for my 2 and 4 yr old for a cruise in September. If a passport is valid for 10 years, how in the heck do they verify the pic is my kids?? No way they will look like this in 9 years. Same with my 12 yr old. His passport will be good til he is 22, but he won't look like he does now then?? Makes no sense to me.

I agree that states use it as a cash cow.

BTW- your kids' passports are only good for 5 years.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

There have been some interesting responses here, let me try to address them.

"Ok, why not?" isn't an argument. It's blind acceptance of a rule or policy. And on that note, let me clarify. Alex is correct, there aren't any "laws" that require the valid photo ID for these purposes. That's why I'm using the terms rule and policy. These are not governmentally mandated, but instead promulgated by businesses etc. As to a valid ID providing "security." What additional security is offered by a valid ID if my name, appearance, birthdate are unchanged.

WebmasterAlex, you have an interesting question. Again, I agree that there is no law mandating photo ID for domestic travel. In fact, my DH forgot his wallet when he went on a 1-day business trip to NYC. He was permitted to fly in and out of NYC with additional screening and no ID. It wasn't a problem and the agents that he dealt with didn't even bat an eye. But my question is more basic: why do stores, and subsequently people, blindly follow a rather arbitrary policy?

Bevtoy, some interesting ideas. I don't think Supermarket cares whether I paid the Sec. of State. It didn't get a cut of those fees. Your second point goes beyond my inquiry. "Those allowing you to board or selling you alcohol may be fined or loose their job, especially if your behavior causes problems for them later. They will be blamed for your presence and behavior and may have to bear the consequences." That's the employee's incentive for following the policy. My question is, did the entity really think about the policy?

Gotta love those NJ, no-picture licenses. My mom had been using her old Foodtown check-cashing card with her no-pic license for a long time. Then it got to be too much of a hassle.

Thanks for the posts everyone. I needed some interesting conversation. Does anyone have any additional thoughts?

 

[lovemygoofy]

Well this maybe a very simple answer but what about security? In this day and age, an identity can be stolen very easily. I just saw a piece about where someone's identity was stolen because all her info was posted by the state to their violation website or something like that.

Anyways, her identity was stolen and a PICTURE id was made from it. If for not other reason than having to prove that you are still you every few years, thats a reason for a valid id in this super sensitive security world.

 

[Aidensmom]

As far as the alcohol thing, I always thought it was to prevent someone from giving an expired ID to an underage person to use. This was done a LOT when I was in college. I know I gave mine to a friend. However, now in Florida you can renew and get replacement (for lost licenses, address changes, etc) by ordering on the internet and receiving through the mail, without having to turn in the old license. I still have my previous expired license because it is actually one of the few good pictures I have of myself and I couldn't bear to throw it away. There is nothing to stop someone from just saying they lost their license and getting a "replacement" for someone for someone underage to use, so if this is part of the reasoning for needing a valid ID for alcohol, it really doesn't stop anything.

 

[Chicago526]

In NY, it is so they can charge you some exorbitant fee (plus tax, of course) every few years to do anything.

No fun letting the ID be valid forever...they might run out of stuff to charge us for!!

On the same track, I was wondering about passports. I am getting passports for my 2 and 4 yr old for a cruise in September. If a passport is valid for 10 years, how in the heck do they verify the pic is my kids?? No way they will look like this in 9 years. Same with my 12 yr old. His passport will be good til he is 22, but he won't look like he does now then?? Makes no sense to me.

Child passport are only valid for 5 years for this reason. You'll need to renew their passports in when they are 7, 9 and 17.

 

[PghLybrt]

Maybe I missed reading it but did anybody think how easy it would be to make fake ids? If we could use expired ones then why could we not use one that is expired for 20 years? They didn’t have any of the bar coding or holograms ect. With technology today they would be extremely easy to make fake ones.

 

[oxfordcircus]

I never knew this was "the rule" until last week when I was flying into Washington D.C. and at the airport here in Cleveland the lady in front of me was asked for "some other form of I.D" because her license was expired. What happens if you don't have anything else or at least don't have it on you? Do they cancel your trip for you?

This happened to me in 2003. On the first leg of my trip, the security guard noticed that my drivers license expired 2 days prior. There was much discussion about whether I would get to fly that day, but they let me get a note from my mommy saying that I was who I said I was. Well, not actually, but I did happen to get "randomly selected" for security screenings for all 4 legs of my trip.

It's fun to say "rules are rules" but don't we need to look at the purpose a rule is put into place? One doesn't get a driver's license for the purpose of flying on a commercial airliner. By that logic, I shouldn't be able to fly while possessing a suspended license that hasn't yet expired. The idea is to make sure the person flying is the person who bought the ticket, not to make sure the person is legal to drive.

 

[WebmasterAlex]

There have been some interesting responses here, let me try to address them.

"Ok, why not?" isn't an argument. It's blind acceptance of a rule or policy. And on that note, let me clarify. Alex is correct, there aren't any "laws" that require the valid photo ID for these purposes. That's why I'm using the terms rule and policy. These are not governmentally mandated, but instead promulgated by businesses etc. As to a valid ID providing "security." What additional security is offered by a valid ID if my name, appearance, birthdate are unchanged.

WebmasterAlex, you have an interesting question. Again, I agree that there is no law mandating photo ID for domestic travel. In fact, my DH forgot his wallet when he went on a 1-day business trip to NYC. He was permitted to fly in and out of NYC with additional screening and no ID. It wasn't a problem and the agents that he dealt with didn't even bat an eye. But my question is more basic: why do stores, and subsequently people, blindly follow a rather arbitrary policy?

Bevtoy, some interesting ideas. I don't think Supermarket cares whether I paid the Sec. of State. It didn't get a cut of those fees. Your second point goes beyond my inquiry. "Those allowing you to board or selling you alcohol may be fined or loose their job, especially if your behavior causes problems for them later. They will be blamed for your presence and behavior and may have to bear the consequences." That's the employee's incentive for following the policy. My question is, did the entity really think about the policy?

Gotta love those NJ, no-picture licenses. My mom had been using her old Foodtown check-cashing card with her no-pic license for a long time. Then it got to be too much of a hassle.

Thanks for the posts everyone. I needed some interesting conversation. Does anyone have any additional thoughts?

Do I get an A?

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Do I get an A?

Come on, you *KNOW* I have to implement a mandatory curve. Your grade depends on how you do compared to everyone else.

 

[LisaNJ25]

Gotta love those NJ, no-picture licenses. My mom had been using her old Foodtown check-cashing card with her no-pic license for a long time. Then it got to be too much of a hassle.

Thanks for the posts everyone. I needed some interesting conversation. Does anyone have any additional thoughts?

Non photo licenses in NJ are a thing of the past ALL must have a picture now one you come up for renewal.

 

[bevtoy]

There have been some interesting responses here, let me try to address them.

"Ok, why not?" isn't an argument. It's blind acceptance of a rule or policy. And on that note, let me clarify. Alex is correct, there aren't any "laws" that require the valid photo ID for these purposes. That's why I'm using the terms rule and policy. These are not governmentally mandated, but instead promulgated by businesses etc. As to a valid ID providing "security." What additional security is offered by a valid ID if my name, appearance, birthdate are unchanged.

WebmasterAlex, you have an interesting question. Again, I agree that there is no law mandating photo ID for domestic travel. In fact, my DH forgot his wallet when he went on a 1-day business trip to NYC. He was permitted to fly in and out of NYC with additional screening and no ID. It wasn't a problem and the agents that he dealt with didn't even bat an eye. But my question is more basic: why do stores, and subsequently people, blindly follow a rather arbitrary policy?

Bevtoy, some interesting ideas. I don't think Supermarket cares whether I paid the Sec. of State. It didn't get a cut of those fees. Your second point goes beyond my inquiry. "Those allowing you to board or selling you alcohol may be fined or loose their job, especially if your behavior causes problems for them later. They will be blamed for your presence and behavior and may have to bear the consequences." That's the employee's incentive for following the policy. My question is, did the entity really think about the policy?

Gotta love those NJ, no-picture licenses. My mom had been using her old Foodtown check-cashing card with her no-pic license for a long time. Then it got to be too much of a hassle.

Thanks for the posts everyone. I needed some interesting conversation. Does anyone have any additional thoughts?

It was a good question, I like questions that make me stop and try to think out of the box. Got anymore?