United Airlines Forces Man off of oversold flight

[Wendy31]

So, its up to $700m market cap fall, and the CEO just now said they'd review policy, etc. That was obviously not their first reaction...

Here's the deal, it violates the Rules of Carriage to bump someone AFTER they are boarded. United has nothing.

So, if that's true, you inform the attendant "Hey, the Rules of Carriage say you can't bump me after I've boarded." And, then, if they say, "Sorry, we are," you get off the plane & complain further & higher up once you're off the plane.

Slightly off-topic, but, one time, I stepped into the street into a crosswalk w/o really looking for cars. My dad said something to me about not looking for cars, & I replied, "But I have the right of way!" to which he retorted, "You can be right, but you can also be dead."

Oh, so I guess United felt the rules didn't apply to them and were acting entitled and stubborn (which is apparently automatically unruly and belligerent to some).

LOL! True.

But I didn't say acting entitled & stubborn makes you unruly & belligerent. I said the passenger became belligerent once he refused to comply & get up from his seat.

But the sarcasm is nice.

Again, United could have (& should have) handled it differently. They didn't. Terrible customer service, & I'm sure they're regretting they didn't come up w/ another solution. But, once the passenger refused, he escalated the situation.

We do have rules and regulations and the contract of carriages says once you are on board, they cannot not involuntarily deny you boarding for this.
What United could have done is talk to him and say, yeah this is the situation - we have to fly these people and yeah is really sucks that we are in this situation, but there is a flight on Delta leaving in an hour. We can get you a seat on that one. We will reimburse you for your ticket and give you an extra $500 for the problem. We're sorry about this.

No they choose - and yes it was a choice made by the humans at United, to physically remove him from the plane and in the process injure him and drag him down the aisle bloody. I work at a place with SOP and there are times we say screw them because they are stupid in this situation.

But do we know that they didn't do/offer something like this first before forcibly removing him from the plane?

And I think a lot of people realize that if they make a big enough stink and/or cause enough of a scene, then the employees of wherever will just end up letting them have their way in order to avoid the fallout - it doesn't make the customer right.

 

[bcla]

as someone who is chinese, my curiosity is of what kind of doctor he is. He does have a limited license to practice, what kind of hospital would hire? So this leads me to believe he could be an eastern styled doctor. These doctors are usually run solo. Time is in the essence because medication are given by xx number of days, someone missing one could throw off the whole rotation. (not your typical medication but full of herbs and such). Im only speculating at this point.

He has an MD, although with a medical education in Vietnam. Their website is really slow now, and I'm guessing it has to do with curiousity.

http://web1.ky.gov/GenSearch/LicenseList.aspx?AGY=5&FLD1=Dao&FLD2=&FLD3=0&FLD4=0&TYPE=

Name:
David A. D. Dao M.D.
Address:
XXX
City, State, Zip:
Elizabethtown KY 42701
Phone:
XXX
License:
22439
Status:
Active Physician
Expiration:
2/28/2018 0:00:00
Practice County:
Hardin
*Area of Practice:
Internal Medicine
Type of Practice:
Private Practice
Year Licensed in KY:
1/27/1983 0:00:00
Medical School:
University of Medicine of Ho Chi Minh City
Year Graduated:
1974
Board Action:
Current Order
​

I've gone to a doctor who was educated outside of the US at medical college that may not be up to US standards. However, she did her residency in San Francisco and is an excellent doctor. The strange thing about it is that her English is almost an American accent, which I rarely encounter even from people who have been in the US for 30 years.

 

[amberpi]

But do we know that they didn't do/offer something like this first before forcibly removing him from the plane?

And I think a lot of people realize that if they make a big enough stink and/or cause enough of a scene, then the employees of wherever will just end up letting them have their way in order to avoid the fallout - it doesn't make the customer right.

We know at NO point did they make a cash offer of any amount. Only vouchers. We also know from a couple of reddit posters that someone volunteered for $1600, no idea if that was $ or vouchers, but the manager laughed at the guy according to the reddit account.

 

[bushdianee]

I have refused to fly United for about 15 years now. I had booked a trip with my parents. My dad had dementia and at the time we booked we and his doctor felt he was up to the trip. By the time the trip date approached he had declined to the point where the doctor recommended he not go. We looked into a refund for my parents and were told we needed a doctor's letter. Well the doctor did not get the letter in to United as quickly as they wanted so they refused the refund. I did travel and the 2 seats next to me which my parents had payed for were occupied on all flights coming and going, so United got paid for those seats twice. I know that had we taken trip insurance we would have probably gotten the refund but that isn't the point. Even if the the seats hadn't been resold I wouldn't have been angry, but the fact is that they did resell them and kept my parents' money as well.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

so comply or get injured? Is that what we have become as a society? You don't do exactly what we want when we want it or we will beat you into submission.

Yes, it has come to that. Or worse as the case may be. Comply or Die.

It's an argument I see repeated over and over on these boards...silently and immediately comply like a good little robot or you get what you deserve.

That's because many on these boards lack even a shred of compassion or empathy. Someone they don't know gets their butt kicked. Meh they deserved it. Yet if Disney doesn't fold a towel animal for them, it's the end of the world.

 

[dlavender]

I just don't understand what United was supposed to do once he refused. Just continue to hold the plane up? "Okay, sir, you won't do it for $800. How about $1,000? Not $1,000? How's $1,500? Not that either. Well, okay then. Let's just sit here for a while."

Yes. Exactly, Keep upping the ante until you get takers. I'm sure they would get takers for $2000 cash. And which way is faster? Taking 10 minutes to up the ante, or 2 hours to clean the plane after the "re accommodation"?

Such an easy solution. Yet, impossible for adults in charge to figure out.

 

[Babs Johnson]

Reports are that their offer maxed out at $800. If they kept increasing -- and apparently NOTHING PREVENTS THEM FROM DOING THAT -- they would have had VOLUNTEERS instead of removing 4 paying customers because of their mismanagement.
.

Ok, so we now know that they stopped at $800 voucher. Never tried cash at any point. They could have avoided all of this for a couple thousand $ for 4 people. Cash talks for getting people to act.

The CEO of United, in an internal e-mail to employees, said the amount paid to the IDB passengers was up to $1000. (4 times a $250 fare for one of the passengers?) Probably a voucher. In cases of IDB, however, the affected passengers can INSIST on a cash payout. It's not known if the four thrown off asked for cash or settled for vouchers.

One report indicated that at least four passengers would have volunteered to be bumped for $1600. But supposedly the gate agent laughed in their faces upon hearing that amount.


Not sure if the letter was already posted. I only read the first two and last 5 or 6 pages of this thread.

April 10, 2017

Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I’ve included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar


Summary of Flight 3411

> On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.

> We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.

> He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.

> Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.

> Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.

=

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Yet if Disney doesn't fold a towel animal for them, it's the end of the world.

I hope you're not trying to make light of this unconscionable oversight... ...

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Yes. Exactly, Keep upping the ante until you get takers. I'm sure they would get takers for $2000 cash. And which way is faster? Taking 10 minutes to up the ante, or 2 hours to clean the plane after the "re accommodation"?

Such an easy solution. Yet, impossible for adults in charge to figure out.

Pretty sure that as a solution, this fits squarely under "DUH!", right!?! Eesh, United.

 

[Albort]

He has an MD, although with a medical education in Vietnam. Their website is really slow now, and I'm guessing it has to do with curiousity.

​

I've gone to a doctor who was educated outside of the US at medical college that may not be up to US standards. However, she did her residency in San Francisco and is an excellent doctor. The strange thing about it is that her English is almost an American accent, which I rarely encounter even from people who have been in the US for 30 years.

im talking about eastern styled medicine.

 

[amberpi]

The CEO of United, in an internal e-mail to employees, said the amount paid to the IDB passengers was up to $1000. (4 times a $250 fare for one of the passengers?) Probably a voucher. In cases of IDB, however, the affected passengers can INSIST on a cash payout. It's not known if the four thrown off asked for cash or settled for vouchers.

=

An eyewitness on CNN (someone upthread loaded it) said the highest voluntary offer made by United was $800 in vouchers. No cash offers. What the IDB passengers received wasn't part of what I was thinking of, but I hope they got cash. I was thinking about how quickly this whole thing could have been handled by simply putting the offer in cash.

 

[bcla]

I have refused to fly United for about 15 years now. I had booked a trip with my parents. My dad had dementia and at the time we booked we and his doctor felt he was up to the trip. By the time the trip date approached he had declined to the point where the doctor recommended he not go. We looked into a refund for my parents and were told we needed a doctor's letter. Well the doctor did not get the letter in to United as quickly as they wanted so they refused the refund. I did travel and the 2 seats next to me which my parents had payed for were occupied on all flights coming and going, so United got paid for those seats twice. I know that had we taken trip insurance we would have probably gotten the refund but that isn't the point. Even if the the seats hadn't been resold I wouldn't have been angry, but the fact is that they did resell them and kept my parents' money as well.

Did you cancel the tickets? You can typically get credit for that. Even if they're not cancelled, if there's a no-show there can be standby passengers places in seats where there are no shows.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

The CEO of United, in an internal e-mail to employees, said the amount paid to the IDB passengers was up to $1000. (4 times a $250 fare for one of the passengers?) Probably a voucher. In cases of IDB, however, the affected passengers can INSIST on a cash payout. It's not known if the four thrown off asked for cash or settled for vouchers.

One report indicated that at least four passengers would have volunteered to be bumped for $1600. But supposedly the gate agent laughed in their faces upon hearing that amount.


Not sure if the letter was already posted. I only read the first two and last 5 or 6 pages of this thread.

April 10, 2017

Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I’ve included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar


Summary of Flight 3411

> On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.

> We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.

> He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.

> Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.

> Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.

=

I think someone might have linked to it. But yeah -- too much to read all of this at this point!!

"Up to $1,000" might be their policy here. Pretty sure from stuff I read today that if bumped involuntarily, a customer has the right to get $1,350 in cash. So I don't know about this policy. And regardless... they CAN offer passengers WHATEVER AMOUNT THEY WANT TO. United might CHOOSE to cap it at $1K -- pretty stupid (and COSTLY) choice...

These internal communications so far are just making United look WORSE. "How not to handle a PR disaster 101".

 

[FlightlessDuck]

It absolutely does with air travel.

Then air travel is a broken industry.

 

[bcla]

im talking about eastern styled medicine.

No evidence that he was an herbalist or practiced eastern medicine. He was a licensed MD in Kentucky. That's conventional western medicine. If you read some of the stuff that got him in trouble, it was for prescribing narcotics in exchange for favors.

 

[TropicalDIS]

Yes. Exactly, Keep upping the ante until you get takers. I'm sure they would get takers for $2000 cash. And which way is faster? Taking 10 minutes to up the ante, or 2 hours to clean the plane after the "re accommodation"?

Such an easy solution. Yet, impossible for adults in charge to figure out.

I highly doubt anyone on board had authority to "up the ante". This needs to be cleared with someone in a higher position of authority.

People need to stop saying this would have been over in a couple of minutes if theyd offered more cash.

There's a chain of command here folks, this isn't a game show.

 

[markb681]

As I said earlier....I've seen gate agents literally ask on the overhead intercom "I need 3 people to step off this flight, What's is going to take to get 3 volunteers!"
People broke their necks trying to get up to the GA desk....Some people took cash...Some took free flight tixs....but they got it done in about 5 minutes! That's what they should have done in this instance!

After that incredibly STUPID memo the CEO put out after this saying in effect "the passenger was belligerent AND I stand behind all my employees" and them losing $450million in stock value today alone! I'd say the CEO is fired before the end of the week if not sooner!

 

[pryncess527]

I highly doubt anyone on board had authority to "up the ante". This needs to be cleared with someone in a higher position of authority.

People need to stop saying this would have been over in a couple of minutes if theyd offered more cash.

There's a chain of command here folks, this isn't a game show.

Yes, but according to United's own documents it appears they had authorization to go up to $1000, but stopped at $800.

And I htink many of us would have thought it advisable to takethe time to seek corporate authorization for more if necessary. It may not have been over in "minutes" but I bet it would have been over faster than this debacle took. And cheaper

 

[dlavender]

I highly doubt anyone on board had authority to "up the ante". This needs to be cleared with someone in a higher position of authority.

People need to stop saying this would have been over in a couple of minutes if theyd offered more cash.

There's a chain of command here folks, this isn't a game show.

Do they not have a phone?

Can they not reach their chain of command?

Once on the plane, is it Marshall law? Are they cut off from the chain?

If that's the case, hopefully they re write their rules with some sense. Maybe, this line "instead of resorting to physical means of resolving a dispute, use your brain"

 

[TropicalDIS]

The $1350 is the max for passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily. An airline can offer whatever they want, however high, to entice volunteers. There is no prohibition against it.

####################################################################################################################

Oh boy, United does seem to have a special talent for shooting themselves in the foot, huh?

Yeah, yeah, what transpired was probably all legal and by the book, but like I mentioned in the Leggingsgate thread, facts and reality don't matter. Perception does, and there's really no way to spin this incident in a positive manner.

Denying those four passengers BEFORE boarding would have been OK. Crappy for the four involved, but life sucks sometimes. But after being cleared to board? That's really an unacceptable
thing to do to customers.

OK, four deadheading crew members show up at the last minute. I get it, sometimes things like this happen, but that's poor planning on United's part. Not the passengers' problem. If it was REALLY vital for those crew members to board (and I'm sure there were alternative methods to get them to Louisville), United needed to stop playing by the book. Offer whatever it takes to get four people to volunteer to leave. With $3 billion in profits last year, United could afford to up the ante to at least $1500 or $2000, where there probably would have been takers. If not, keep raising the offer. Eventually 4 people will accept.

As for the police, there was no reason for them to even get involved. This was a customer service issue. Yes, the police should have responded when United called, but they should have assessed the situation and told United to deal with it themselves.

It seems as if some knucklehead at United watched the Pepsi commercial last week or the Delta operational meltdown over the weekend and said, "Hey, I can top that. Hold my beer and watch this!!"

There's absolutely no chance the police would tell United to deal with themselves, nor would i want them to. This is air travel we are talking about and there is too much pressure around it since 9/11, law enforcement can't take the risk of saying "Na you got this"