Unbelievable - a mob attacked these people for nothing

[Terry36]

 

[LuvOrlando]

Thanks for the post Wannagotodisney.

Now the ball is in the FBI's court so to speak. I am very interested to see how this is played out. What will the people at the top do with this now?

Count me in to send the Marshall family a donation. No way should these people be forced to go it alone with their medical bills and all, no insurance and victims of a racially motivated crime. I hope they will use whatever is left after paying medical bills for legal representation.... I hope the request to the FBI is genuine and will be taken seriously and is not just a smoke screen.

 

[Shutterbug]

more on the story:


http://www.ohio.com/news/51253207.html

 

[DizBelle]

So, you are saying that it is ok for the policeman to shoot the kid who was pulling a comb from his pocket or had a water gun in his hand? Seriously? (before every cop on the dis starts in on me, I am NOT saying anything should happen to the cop necessarily. I am using it as an example of shooting out of fear rather than actual threat)

If a police officer says to someone "Freeze! Put your hands up!" and they don't. And they reach under their shirt to pull something out, and the police officer says again "Put your hands up!" but they continue to reach under their shirt to pull something out, the police officer has the right to fire due to the potential threat. Even if it was just a comb they were reaching for.

There is no way for the police officer to know they were just reaching for a comb. He has to assume they are going for a weapon. Why else would they behave this way?

 

[Darsa]

If a police officer says to someone "Freeze! Put your hands up!" and they don't. And they reach under their shirt to pull something out, and the police officer says again "Put your hands up!" but they continue to reach under their shirt to pull something out, the police officer has the right to fire due to the potential threat. Even if it was just a comb they were reaching for.

Could not agree more. Why someone would be stupid enough to put a hand in a pocket after being told BY THE POLICE to put your hands up... I don't care if you're as innocent as a lamb, put your stinkin' HANDS UP! Sheesh.

 

[luvsJack]

If a police officer says to someone "Freeze! Put your hands up!" and they don't. And they reach under their shirt to pull something out, and the police officer says again "Put your hands up!" but they continue to reach under their shirt to pull something out, the police officer has the right to fire due to the potential threat. Even if it was just a comb they were reaching for.

There is no way for the police officer to know they were just reaching for a comb. He has to assume they are going for a weapon. Why else would they behave this way?

Not sure why this is being brought up again now. In the situation you are saying, you are correct of course. But that is not what I was referring too. After posting on this thread and others reacting as though I was crazy; I have come to realize I was not getting my meaning across very well.

 

[kenyadh]

I'm a black female and speak for myself. Rev Sharpton does not represent me!!!

And for the person who said that many blacks and black leaders play the racial card since the OJ verdict, you are wrong. Don't generalize a race because of a few people who love media attention!!!


This was a hate crime by ignorant black youth period! Where are these kids parents? How could 50 youth walk on the streets in a pack and no one notice?

 

[LuvOrlando]

Thanks for posting the following story shutterbug. I think I am more upset now than I was when it first happened because it appears as though the police in Akron are just stonewalling the entire issue until it goes away.

What on earth is going through the heads of law enforcement? What could they possibly be thinking that makes a long term situation like this go unanswered? No arrests? How can that be, if they are all teenagers wouldn't it be easy to pick them out of local yearbooks? I think the family should find a lawyer and push this through the civil courts, you don't need the police for that and year books are public.

I'm disgusted.


Akron attack victims frustrated with police response

By Phil Trexler
Beacon Journal staff writer

POSTED: 06:16 p.m. EDT, Jul 20, 2009

All John Alchier could do was sit and pray.

His call to 911 was put on hold, he said, as he sat in his wheelchair and watched a group of teens pummel his brother and friend.

Alchier, 40, had a front-row seat as the teens swarmed a family gathering on Girard Street following the June 27 fireworks show at Firestone Park. Helplessness overtook him as he prayed out loud.

Community leaders are now voicing disgust over the attack, which is an example of the city's ballooning assault rate.

In police District 6, which includes Firestone Park, reports show that aggravated assaults have more than doubled this year compared with 2008.

The increase in aggravated assaults is even more dramatic in other areas of the city.

What happened on Girard Street is also a symbol of Akron's hushed racial tension. The victims are white; their attackers are black.

The attack has ignited scores of reaction, including a call for justice for the victims by the Rev. Al Sharpton.

From his view, Alchier said there's more to the story than has been told.

''The newspapers and the news is not telling the entire story. No one is,'' Alchier said from his home in Akron.

Those who witnessed the assault or survived it say this was no isolated incident, and the beatings to Greg Alchier and his friend, Marty Marshall, extended farther than Girard Street that night. A third victim is identified in a police report. More are believed to have been treated for injuries.

''This happens every year; it just depends on which street they decide to go up,'' said Greg Alchier, 39, who has attended the neighborhood fireworks show for more than 30 years.

''There's always a bunch of kids trying to start fights with people. It happens every year, and nothing's ever done about it. It's just swept under the rug.''

Case in point, he said: Emergency room personnel at Akron General Medical Center told him that as many as 10 other people were treated for injuries that night after being attacked by a group of teens.

The Alchier family, who have lived in the Firestone Park neighborhood for about four decades, also expressed frustration over the city's reaction.

During the assault, John Alchier said, he was placed on hold when he called 911 for police. He has filed a complaint about the call with the department, which said it was investigating.

Although police say they are investigating the attack, Alchier said last week that no detective has sought his interview.

''I think it's completely appalling,'' he said.

Akron police officials released a statement Friday, saying they are continuing to investigate the attack in an effort to find those responsible.

''Citizens of Akron deserve a comprehensive investigation, but not one done for the sake of expediency and at the expense of proper procedures and justice,'' department spokesman Lt. Rick Edwards said in the statement.

Attack recalled

John Alchier's account of the night matches the recollection of his brother and Marshall, who first spoke of the attack earlier this month.

The families were outside a Girard Street home after walking from the fireworks show, a decades-old annual event that typically draws as many as 10,000 people to the neighborhood.

Greg Alchier, who lives in Michigan, was visiting his family's home. Marty Marshall, 39, his wife, Yvonne, and their two children were there as well, about 30 minutes after the last fireworks blast. All were outside when a group of teens crowded the street that leads away from Firestone Park.

The group of about 30 to 40 teens was in the road, blocking a car.

''I kind of had a bad feeling about it. I was just hoping they were going to walk by and not have a problem,'' Greg Alchier said.

Those hopes faded quickly.

One teen ran up from behind Greg Alchier, cutting through the yard, and blindsided him with a blow to the head.

There was no exchange of words leading up to the attack, witnesses said.

''I turned around and said, 'What the [expletive],'' Greg Alchier said. ''The next thing I know, one kids yells, 'Oh, you want to fight?' and then there's 15 to 20 of them running at us.''

Greg Alchier recalls someone from the group of black teens yelling: ''This is our world.''

Marshall has said he also heard a teen saying: ''This is a black world.''

As the group continued to fight Alchier, Marshall jumped in and both men found themselves attacked by a growing number of teens.

Marshall was beaten as he fell to the ground. Greg Alchier fended off teens, trying to help his friend.

''Marty's fighting a group of kids. I'm fighting a group of kids, and these kids are just running back and forth between us,'' Greg Alchier said.

John Alchier said he was frustrated that an injury barred him from helping his brother. He has been paralyzed below the waist since a motorcycle crash 11 years ago.

All he could do, he said, was pray to Jesus for the attack to stop as he was calling 911.

''[911] immediately went to hold and said all 'operators are busy,' '' Alchier said. ''I'm, like, thinking, are you kidding me? I'm watching Marty on the ground just getting completely kicked. . . . There was just a big crowd around him and a big crowd around my brother.

''I couldn't do anything and I just yelled out, 'Help us, Jesus' and when I did that, they all just kind of went away.''

Marshall suffered a concussion and spent five days in the hospital.

Greg Alchier, who was struck multiple times in the head and back, was treated for a head injury but was not hospitalized. He said he experiences head pain.

As paramedics arrived, a third injured man, a bleeding 23-year-old from Akron, came to the Girard Street house seeking treatment. He said the same group had assaulted him.

The man, identified in police reports, did not return messages left at his home.

Marshall returned to work as a construction worker last week. His hours have been reduced, his medical bills are over $17,000 and he has no medical insurance.

He has begun the process of filing a victim's compensation claim through the state. People throughout the country have contributed to a fund set up for his family.

''I try not to think about it. It's so messed up'' Marshall said of the attack. ''But I have noticed so many more nice people out there, helping us get through this.''

John Alchier said an officer told him that a group of teens was stopped immediately after the attack, but the victims and witnesses were not allowed to see the boys to identify them as the attackers.

He said he could have identified only one of the teens by his clothing, a red jerseylike shirt.

''That's the thing that bothering me: no arrests,'' John Alchier said. ''They kept continually asking us if we could identify any of them. And all they would let us give them were descriptions.

''They would not let anybody go down and ID anybody. And they said they weren't going to bring anybody here to ID them.''

Asked for a response, police would only say the case remains under investigation.

Just one description of a suspect has been released. He is a black male, 17 to 19 years old, wearing braids or dreadlocks with red and white beads. He also had braces on his teeth.

Urgency questioned

As for the race issue, Marshall and the Alchier brothers can't say whether their gathering was targeted because they are white.

They remain frustrated by the apparent lack of urgency and attention their case has received from police.

The incident was not reported by police to the media until almost two weeks had passed.

Akron police said the department's public information officer was on vacation at that time and his replacement did not issue a release.

Mayor Don Plusquellic sought the FBI's help July 10.

Agent Scott Wilson, a Cleveland-based FBI spokesman, said the agency has begun an inquiry in conjunction with Akron police to determine if the case falls under federal hate crime statutes.

Police have not classified the assaults as hate crimes. Officials said they were unaware of the chants, ''This is our world'' or ''This is a black world'' until the victims and witnesses spoke to the media.

''I don't think the police have any intent on doing anything about it. If they did, they would have done something before the media got it and forced them to call the FBI,'' John Alchier said.

''I just can't believe the inaction of police that night and subsequently from that. It's like they don't want the people of Akron to know this kind of activity goes on. They don't want everybody to be in fear.''

Councilwoman responds

Councilwoman Tina Merlitti said she's disturbed by the Girard Street attack, calling it ''horrible'' and ''scary'' for the victims. She said, however, that the assault appears to be an isolated incident involving teens who might not live in the neighborhood.

Merlitti said part of the reason she believes her ward is safe is through the efforts of residents working with police and city schools.

Two years ago, Merlitti ordered the removal of basketball hoops from Firestone Park because of growing numbers of youths fighting, playing loud music or nighttime basketball games.

Police drove with school officials after classes let out at Garfield High School to help identify troublemakers and stop fights and other crimes.

Overall, she said, crime, ''is something we all have to continue to keep on top of and address each issue as it comes up.''

Akron police said there have been 41 aggravated assaults and 108 criminal acts of intimidation in the first five months of this year in the police district that includes Firestone Park. For the same period last year, there were 18 assaults and 89 acts of intimidation, police records show.

Overall, crime is down in the district by 14 percent this year.

''The way I see it, we get waves of things, where you'll have a wave of people breaking into cars,'' Merlitti said. ''And then we usually deal with it on that neighborhood level and once we get people involved, usually it stops.

''Everything goes in cycles, and it's just something that we have to continue to work on.''

Neighborhood support

Cindy Morrow, president of the Firestone Park Citizens Council, said she and her husband moved to the neighborhood after attending a concert and seeing the attractive homes that dot the landscape.

Like Merlitti, she said the neighborhood has its challenges with teen crime, but overall, the area is safe and continues to be ''a wonderful neighborhood.''

Her group organizes the fireworks, festival and symphony concert that makes up the Independence Day celebration.

As for the Girard Street attack, she said she is most disturbed that no adult has come forward to help police determine who committed the crimes.

''The youths are ridiculous,'' she said. ''I just wonder sometimes where their parents are.''

Anyone with information is asked to call Akron police detectives at 330-375-2490. Anonymous tips can be made at http://ci.akron.oh.us/ASP/tip.html.



Beacon Journal computed-assisted reporting manager David Knox contributed to this report. Phil Trexler can be reached at 330-996-3717 or ptrexler@thebeaconjournal.com.

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Ohio.com and the Akron Beacon Journal disable commenting on stories when we believe the feature will be used excessively for anonymous postings that are personal attacks, abusive or hateful. This is one such story.

John Alchier, 40, who is wheelchair bound because of a motorcycle accident, talks about the June 27 attack by a group of teenagers on his brother Greg and the Marshall family. (Mike Cardew/Akron Beacon Journal)
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FBI asked to investigate attack on white family near Firestone Park

All John Alchier could do was sit and pray.

His call to 911 was put on hold, he said, as he sat in his wheelchair and watched a group of teens pummel his brother and friend.

Alchier, 40, had a front-row seat as the teens swarmed a family gathering on Girard Street following the June 27 fireworks show at Firestone Park. Helplessness overtook him as he prayed out loud.

Community leaders are now voicing disgust over the attack, which is an example of the city's ballooning assault rate.

In police District 6, which includes Firestone Park, reports show that aggravated assaults have more than doubled this year compared with 2008.

The increase in aggravated assaults is even more dramatic in other areas of the city.

What happened on Girard Street is also a symbol of Akron's hushed racial tension. The victims are white; their attackers are black.

The attack has ignited scores of reaction, including a call for justice for the victims by the Rev. Al Sharpton.

From his view, Alchier said there's more to the story than has been told.

''The newspapers and the news is not telling the entire story. No one is,'' Alchier said from his home in Akron.

Those who witnessed the assault or survived it say this was no isolated incident, and the beatings to Greg Alchier and his friend, Marty Marshall, extended farther than Girard Street that night. A third victim is identified in a police report. More are believed to have been treated for injuries.

''This happens every year; it just depends on which street they decide to go up,'' said Greg Alchier, 39, who has attended the neighborhood fireworks show for more than 30 years.

''There's always a bunch of kids trying to start fights with people. It happens every year, and nothing's ever done about it. It's just swept under the rug.''

Case in point, he said: Emergency room personnel at Akron General Medical Center told him that as many as 10 other people were treated for injuries that night after being attacked by a group of teens.

The Alchier family, who have lived in the Firestone Park neighborhood for about four decades, also expressed frustration over the city's reaction.

During the assault, John Alchier said, he was placed on hold when he called 911 for police. He has filed a complaint about the call with the department, which said it was investigating.

Although police say they are investigating the attack, Alchier said last week that no detective has sought his interview.

''I think it's completely appalling,'' he said.

Akron police officials released a statement Friday, saying they are continuing to investigate the attack in an effort to find those responsible.

''Citizens of Akron deserve a comprehensive investigation, but not one done for the sake of expediency and at the expense of proper procedures and justice,'' department spokesman Lt. Rick Edwards said in the statement.

Attack recalled

John Alchier's account of the night matches the recollection of his brother and Marshall, who first spoke of the attack earlier this month.

The families were outside a Girard Street home after walking from the fireworks show, a decades-old annual event that typically draws as many as 10,000 people to the neighborhood.

Greg Alchier, who lives in Michigan, was visiting his family's home. Marty Marshall, 39, his wife, Yvonne, and their two children were there as well, about 30 minutes after the last fireworks blast. All were outside when a group of teens crowded the street that leads away from Firestone Park.

The group of about 30 to 40 teens was in the road, blocking a car.

''I kind of had a bad feeling about it. I was just hoping they were going to walk by and not have a problem,'' Greg Alchier said.

Those hopes faded quickly.

One teen ran up from behind Greg Alchier, cutting through the yard, and blindsided him with a blow to the head.

There was no exchange of words leading up to the attack, witnesses said.

''I turned around and said, 'What the [expletive],'' Greg Alchier said. ''The next thing I know, one kids yells, 'Oh, you want to fight?' and then there's 15 to 20 of them running at us.''

Greg Alchier recalls someone from the group of black teens yelling: ''This is our world.''

Marshall has said he also heard a teen saying: ''This is a black world.''

As the group continued to fight Alchier, Marshall jumped in and both men found themselves attacked by a growing number of teens.

Marshall was beaten as he fell to the ground. Greg Alchier fended off teens, trying to help his friend.

''Marty's fighting a group of kids. I'm fighting a group of kids, and these kids are just running back and forth between us,'' Greg Alchier said.

John Alchier said he was frustrated that an injury barred him from helping his brother. He has been paralyzed below the waist since a motorcycle crash 11 years ago.

All he could do, he said, was pray to Jesus for the attack to stop as he was calling 911.

''[911] immediately went to hold and said all 'operators are busy,' '' Alchier said. ''I'm, like, thinking, are you kidding me? I'm watching Marty on the ground just getting completely kicked. . . . There was just a big crowd around him and a big crowd around my brother.

''I couldn't do anything and I just yelled out, 'Help us, Jesus' and when I did that, they all just kind of went away.''

Marshall suffered a concussion and spent five days in the hospital.

Greg Alchier, who was struck multiple times in the head and back, was treated for a head injury but was not hospitalized. He said he experiences head pain.

As paramedics arrived, a third injured man, a bleeding 23-year-old from Akron, came to the Girard Street house seeking treatment. He said the same group had assaulted him.

The man, identified in police reports, did not return messages left at his home.

Marshall returned to work as a construction worker last week. His hours have been reduced, his medical bills are over $17,000 and he has no medical insurance.

He has begun the process of filing a victim's compensation claim through the state. People throughout the country have contributed to a fund set up for his family.

''I try not to think about it. It's so messed up'' Marshall said of the attack. ''But I have noticed so many more nice people out there, helping us get through this.''

John Alchier said an officer told him that a group of teens was stopped immediately after the attack, but the victims and witnesses were not allowed to see the boys to identify them as the attackers.

He said he could have identified only one of the teens by his clothing, a red jerseylike shirt.

''That's the thing that bothering me: no arrests,'' John Alchier said. ''They kept continually asking us if we could identify any of them. And all they would let us give them were descriptions.

''They would not let anybody go down and ID anybody. And they said they weren't going to bring anybody here to ID them.''

Asked for a response, police would only say the case remains under investigation.

Just one description of a suspect has been released. He is a black male, 17 to 19 years old, wearing braids or dreadlocks with red and white beads. He also had braces on his teeth.

Urgency questioned

As for the race issue, Marshall and the Alchier brothers can't say whether their gathering was targeted because they are white.

They remain frustrated by the apparent lack of urgency and attention their case has received from police.

The incident was not reported by police to the media until almost two weeks had passed.

Akron police said the department's public information officer was on vacation at that time and his replacement did not issue a release.

Mayor Don Plusquellic sought the FBI's help July 10.

Agent Scott Wilson, a Cleveland-based FBI spokesman, said the agency has begun an inquiry in conjunction with Akron police to determine if the case falls under federal hate crime statutes.

Police have not classified the assaults as hate crimes. Officials said they were unaware of the chants, ''This is our world'' or ''This is a black world'' until the victims and witnesses spoke to the media.

''I don't think the police have any intent on doing anything about it. If they did, they would have done something before the media got it and forced them to call the FBI,'' John Alchier said.

''I just can't believe the inaction of police that night and subsequently from that. It's like they don't want the people of Akron to know this kind of activity goes on. They don't want everybody to be in fear.''

Councilwoman responds

Councilwoman Tina Merlitti said she's disturbed by the Girard Street attack, calling it ''horrible'' and ''scary'' for the victims. She said, however, that the assault appears to be an isolated incident involving teens who might not live in the neighborhood.

Merlitti said part of the reason she believes her ward is safe is through the efforts of residents working with police and city schools.

Two years ago, Merlitti ordered the removal of basketball hoops from Firestone Park because of growing numbers of youths fighting, playing loud music or nighttime basketball games.

Police drove with school officials after classes let out at Garfield High School to help identify troublemakers and stop fights and other crimes.

Overall, she said, crime, ''is something we all have to continue to keep on top of and address each issue as it comes up.''

Akron police said there have been 41 aggravated assaults and 108 criminal acts of intimidation in the first five months of this year in the police district that includes Firestone Park. For the same period last year, there were 18 assaults and 89 acts of intimidation, police records show.

Overall, crime is down in the district by 14 percent this year.

''The way I see it, we get waves of things, where you'll have a wave of people breaking into cars,'' Merlitti said. ''And then we usually deal with it on that neighborhood level and once we get people involved, usually it stops.

''Everything goes in cycles, and it's just something that we have to continue to work on.''

Neighborhood support

Cindy Morrow, president of the Firestone Park Citizens Council, said she and her husband moved to the neighborhood after attending a concert and seeing the attractive homes that dot the landscape.

Like Merlitti, she said the neighborhood has its challenges with teen crime, but overall, the area is safe and continues to be ''a wonderful neighborhood.''

Her group organizes the fireworks, festival and symphony concert that makes up the Independence Day celebration.

As for the Girard Street attack, she said she is most disturbed that no adult has come forward to help police determine who committed the crimes.

''The youths are ridiculous,'' she said. ''I just wonder sometimes where their parents are.''

Anyone with information is asked to call Akron police detectives at 330-375-2490. Anonymous tips can be made at http://ci.akron.oh.us/ASP/tip.html.



Beacon Journal computed-assisted reporting manager David Knox contributed to this report. Phil Trexler can be reached at 330-996-3717 or ptrexler@thebeaconjournal.com.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I said at the very beginning of this thread that the Police statement was completely inappropriate, and that most people there probably knew/know that no action would/will be taken.

Sadly, I was right.

Why some people try so hard to ignore the obvious and defend the indefensible...

 

[DizBelle]

Not sure why this is being brought up again now. In the situation you are saying, you are correct of course. But that is not what I was referring too. After posting on this thread and others reacting as though I was crazy; I have come to realize I was not getting my meaning across very well.

I thought you made it clear that you believed that unless the threat was actual, any shooting would not be justified.

In my scenario, there was no actual threat. The person did not have a weapon and they were reaching for a comb. Therefore, the police officer shooting them was, in your opinion, not justified.

Are you now saying this is not what you meant?

 

[ChrizJen]

I don't like the police's attitude regarding the whole incident. It's as if they are trying to downplay it rather than make a full out effort to find the boys responsible and bring them to justice.
I think the whole 'hate' crime thing is stupid anyway. I don't think that one person getting beat to a pulp is less of a crime than another one getting beat to a pulp whatever races and/or motives are involved on either side.

I just want to step in and try to clear up a little air on the whole subject of "hate crime". I know that many have the opinion that a crime is a crime, and no crime should be more heavily punished than any other crime.
But let me just try to defend the idea behind hate crime legislation. When a person is "randomly" attacked, with no other motive but violence against another person, it affects a few people. It certainly affects the victim and his/her family. It also may affect anyone who witnesses the attack. But it pretty much ends there. When a crime is motivated by hate against an entire group of people (be they black, gay, Jewish, whatever...), it affects an entire population of people. The hatred that motivated the attack on that one person or group of people was meant for an entire segment of the population. It was meant to make a broad statement of power over entire group of people. Hate crimes legislation simply aims at making it more difficult for people to use violence to make their statements of hate.
Now, that being said, I think that there needs to be a lot more work done on hate crimes legislation before it will work to serve its purpose. The idea that what happened in Akron would NOT be considered a hate crime under the current boundaries of hate crime laws is an indication that a lot more work needs to be done. Unfortunately, laws at this time only cover crimes against those considered minorities. In theory, this makes sense because minorities are the ones generally at more risk of being attacked based on hate. But this attack in Akron certainly raises a big red flag to that theory. I do FIRMLY believe in hate crime laws. I think that crimes motivated by hate need to be punished more severly. But I also think that ANY act of violence motivated by hate against ANY group of people (again, black, white, gay, religious, etc...) should be punished as hate crime. If the incident in Akron, OH happened the way the article states, then it's a hate crime.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I just want to step in and try to clear up a little air on the whole subject of "hate crime". I know that many have the opinion that a crime is a crime, and no crime should be more heavily punished than any other crime.
But let me just try to defend the idea behind hate crime legislation. When a person is "randomly" attacked, with no other motive but violence against another person, it affects a few people. It certainly affects the victim and his/her family. It also may affect anyone who witnesses the attack. But it pretty much ends there. When a crime is motivated by hate against an entire group of people (be they black, gay, Jewish, whatever...), it affects an entire population of people. The hatred that motivated the attack on that one person or group of people was meant for an entire segment of the population. It was meant to make a broad statement of power over entire group of people. Hate crimes legislation simply aims at making it more difficult for people to use violence to make their statements of hate.
Now, that being said, I think that there needs to be a lot more work done on hate crimes legislation before it will work to serve its purpose. The idea that what happened in Akron would NOT be considered a hate crime under the current boundaries of hate crime laws is an indication that a lot more work needs to be done. Unfortunately, laws at this time only cover crimes against those considered minorities. In theory, this makes sense because minorities are the ones generally at more risk of being attacked based on hate. But this attack in Akron certainly raises a big red flag to that theory. I do FIRMLY believe in hate crime laws. I think that crimes motivated by hate need to be punished more severly. But I also think that ANY act of violence motivated by hate against ANY group of people (again, black, white, gay, religious, etc...) should be punished as hate crime. If the incident in Akron, OH happened the way the article states, then it's a hate crime.

I completely understand not only your position, but the ideology behind the advent of hate crimes in general. Even so I respectfully reject it and this is why:

First, all crime is motivated by hate IMO and it occurs because the criminal, at his or her core, believes they are superior in some way to the victim.

Second, women are the recipients of far more violence as a subset than any other subset on the planet. Violence against females at all ages regardless of any other factors, just because they are female is largely ignored so I refuse to support anything that ignores the most vulnerable among our population.

Third, how dare anyone say a crime against one particular set of criteria hurts a larger group than another. What makes you say a crime against a Jew is more hurtful because it hurts all Jews while a crime against a white can't possibly hurt their members???

Which brings me to my fourth problem with the idea, it is inherently divisive on 2 fronts. First, you can't say we're all equal and in the same breath say EXCEPT WHEN... Second, you can't expect people in ANY group to not get upset when you say their hurts are less relevant BECAUSE they are different.

Fifth, I think it is against our civil rights to deny a population equal protection in the eyes of the law because of their superficial demographics.

Sixth, there are certain regions in this country where the group that is actually a minority is vastly different than the commonly accepted usage of the term. Who is or is not a minority must be easily checked out since it's all there in the census. We are having another census soon and I suspect it will lead to lawsuits. In the past few years I seem to recall reading over & over how our country is no longer dominated by whites. If whites are no longer the majority whites are the minority. What is going to be done about that once it is all there in print, stark and undeniable?

I am upset for this family that suffered an assault not because they are 'like me' but because they are being denied equal protection in the eyes of the law because they do not meet an arbitrary set of criteria.

 

[ChrizJen]

LuvOrlando, I get what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense.

As to your first comment: Yes, some violent crimes are motivated by hate. But I don't agree that all of them are. If that were the case, there would be no random victims. In the case of those which are motivated by hate, it's generally hate for a specific person and not a group of people. And certainly all of them are a result of a person needing to feel power over another person. I'm sure no one would dispute you on that.

Second: I wholeheartedly agree with you that women are one of the largest groups of victims of violent crimes. The fact of the matter is that gender is covered under most hate crime legislation. That's not to say that the laws can't be revisited and revised to be more inclusive of women. In fact I believe I made a statement that I think more work definitely needs to be done on hate crime legislation. And I'm certainly not saying that there shouln't be tougher laws regarding violence against women. There most definitely should be. Just because I'd like to see tougher hate crimes laws doesn't mean that I don't think there should be stricter penalties for crimes against women. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

As to your third point: I probably should re-word something I said in my last post. I stated that a random crime committed against a person only affects a few people, I meant that it only profoundly affects a few. It may upset many many more people than just the victim/family/witnesses. I wasn't trying to minimize the affect that it does have on people when a random violent crime is committed. I was merely trying to state that a hate crime has a profound affect on an entire group of people. Sure, there may only be one (or several) victim(s) of the violent act itself, but because the act was committed specifically in the name of hatred for a particular group, that entire group feels the profound affect (fear that they may be singled out as well because they're black or gay or Jewish, etc.).

As to your fourth point: No one is negating the hurt that anyone feels when a crime is committed. All crimes are punishable. A violent crime comes with a punishment, whether it's a hate crime or a random one. Hate crimes legislation simply aims to take it a step further to bring more attention to the crimes that are being committed to entire groups of people. It's not a matter of whose hurt is more important than another's. I'm sure anyone who's been a victim of a violent crime will tell you that even when the perpetraor is convicted, the hurt and pain don't go away. Punishment isn't given for the sake of healing the victim's hurt. It's given to bring the criminal to justice. It's a matter of a punishment that will send a message to those who commit these crimes AND to those who may be inclined to commit them in the future.

Fifth: No civil rights are being violated when hate crimes legislation is enacted. In fact it's quite the opposite. Even without hate crime laws, every crime is punishable in a court of law. Any victim of any crime has the same right to seek justice for his/her perpetrator. All hate crime legislation hopes to do is bring more light to those crimes that are being committed against minorities, who are typically more vulnerable.

Sixth: The term "minority" isn't a reference to actual numbers. It's a term that is used to describe groups who are typically or historically persecuted or hated. These are the groups that can be particularly vulnerable to crimes based on hate.

As I stated in my previous post...I certainly don't think hate crimes legislation is perfect. There may not be a way to ever make it perfect. But I do think it's necessary, and I believe that with a little work, we can make it more inclusive and workable for society as a whole.

 

[LisaR]

But where do we draw the line with hate crimes?

What happens when they arrest the white guy, who is a known racist, for killing a black guy and during the investigation, they discover he killed a white guy? Does that make him less hateful because he also killed someone of his own color?

What about the guy that rapes and murders children. Does he do it out of hate? Anger? Power? All of the above?

What about the husband that brutally kills his wife of 15 years and chops her up into pieces. You can't tell me he doesn't have some intense hate issues going on in his life.

People commit crimes out of hate and anger all the time. I have a son that is Korean. We won't even go into how devastated I would be if something happened to him and to find out someone did it just because he was Korean would make it so much worse. But in my heart of hearts, I believe an evil person is an evil person. If it wasn't a Korean kid, it would have been a black kid or a Hispanic kid.

Does anyone truly believe Hitler would have been a stellar citizen if there weren't any Jews in the world?

 

[luvsJack]

I thought you made it clear that you believed that unless the threat was actual, any shooting would not be justified.

In my scenario, there was no actual threat. The person did not have a weapon and they were reaching for a comb. Therefore, the police officer shooting them was, in your opinion, not justified.

Are you now saying this is not what you meant?

Ok, if a police officer tells someone to put their hands up and they reach in their pocket, jacket or something; it is of course reasonable for the cop to think they are reaching for a weapon. That is an implyed threat and is reasonable. What I was talking about ia not reasonable but brought on by fear. The type of thing I was referring to are the types of things that happened after Katrina when people were so afraid. (there were several cases of people being shot because they were the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time) Like I said, any misunderstanding is my fault because I wasn't very clear with my meaning.



This case is horrible and these people need to be brought to justice, whether charged with a hate crime or assualt, and sadly it looks as though the police will not do anything. The article mentioned the racial tension in Akron, do the police not realize that ignoring this is just going to make the racial tension worse. --Just like what is going on with that case in Texas.

 

[LuvOrlando]

LuvOrlando, I get what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense.

As to your first comment: Yes, some violent crimes are motivated by hate. But I don't agree that all of them are. If that were the case, there would be no random victims. In the case of those which are motivated by hate, it's generally hate for a specific person and not a group of people. And certainly all of them are a result of a person needing to feel power over another person. I'm sure no one would dispute you on that.
Second: I wholeheartedly agree with you that women are one of the largest groups of victims of violent crimes. The fact of the matter is that gender is covered under most hate crime legislation. That's not to say that the laws can't be revisited and revised to be more inclusive of women. In fact I believe I made a statement that I think more work definitely needs to be done on hate crime legislation. And I'm certainly not saying that there shouln't be tougher laws regarding violence against women. There most definitely should be. Just because I'd like to see tougher hate crimes laws doesn't mean that I don't think there should be stricter penalties for crimes against women. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

As to your third point: I probably should re-word something I said in my last post. I stated that a random crime committed against a person only affects a few people, I meant that it only profoundly affects a few. It may upset many many more people than just the victim/family/witnesses. I wasn't trying to minimize the affect that it does have on people when a random violent crime is committed. I was merely trying to state that a hate crime has a profound affect on an entire group of people. Sure, there may only be one (or several) victim(s) of the violent act itself, but because the act was committed specifically in the name of hatred for a particular group, that entire group feels the profound affect (fear that they may be singled out as well because they're black or gay or Jewish, etc.).

As to your fourth point: No one is negating the hurt that anyone feels when a crime is committed. All crimes are punishable. A violent crime comes with a punishment, whether it's a hate crime or a random one. Hate crimes legislation simply aims to take it a step further to bring more attention to the crimes that are being committed to entire groups of people. It's not a matter of whose hurt is more important than another's. I'm sure anyone who's been a victim of a violent crime will tell you that even when the perpetraor is convicted, the hurt and pain don't go away. Punishment isn't given for the sake of healing the victim's hurt. It's given to bring the criminal to justice. It's a matter of a punishment that will send a message to those who commit these crimes AND to those who may be inclined to commit them in the future.

Fifth: No civil rights are being violated when hate crimes legislation is enacted. In fact it's quite the opposite. Even without hate crime laws, every crime is punishable in a court of law. Any victim of any crime has the same right to seek justice for his/her perpetrator. All hate crime legislation hopes to do is bring more light to those crimes that are being committed against minorities, who are typically more vulnerable.

Sixth: The term "minority" isn't a reference to actual numbers. It's a term that is used to describe groups who are typically or historically persecuted or hated. These are the groups that can be particularly vulnerable to crimes based on hate.

As I stated in my previous post...I certainly don't think hate crimes legislation is perfect. There may not be a way to ever make it perfect. But I do think it's necessary, and I believe that with a little work, we can make it more inclusive and workable for society as a whole.

I understand what you are saying, and I can respect your position but there is a fundamental difference between the way you and I see things. I do not at all believe there is such a thing as a random crime. Many criminologists point out the a victim is selected because the criminal detects a weakness of some kind that he/she can exploit (one of my favorite criminologists is Gavin DeBecker and he makes very good cases for this perspective). According to him, more or less crime is never random... it is only the opportunity that is random.If a person rejects the notion of random crime, then most of the other notions that follow it fall aside. There is a distinction of premeditated crime, which I accept but I do not think that is what we're talking about here.

I do happen to think it is a violation of Civil Rights to say that one group will be denied 'an elevated status as a victim' because they do not belong to a particular group. So many speak about historical identity as victims of hate... exactly whose history is relevant? The problem with this definition is that it is so arbitrary, and people intuitively recognize this truth. Who has a right to say one groups history is more important than another? EVERY group on this planet has a history of being a victim if you look back far enough. Who gets to decide how far back is too far or how far back is relevant? How does a group get to petition for an addendum to this preferred status list? Could a group who feels they are not included but should be appear before an officer of the court somewhere and petition for inclusion? That right there is what is wrong with the idea IMO, it is arbitrary and our laws should not be arbitrary.

 

[ChrizJen]

.

But where do we draw the line with hate crimes?

What happens when they arrest the white guy, who is a known racist, for killing a black guy and during the investigation, they discover he killed a white guy? Does that make him less hateful because he also killed someone of his own color?

If you have these questions, you should probably do some research on the nature of hate crimes and hate crime legislation. A hate crime conviction has less to do with demographics of the perpetrator/victim and more to do with the motivation of the crime. In other words, a white person killing a black person (or vice versa) is not necessarily a hate crime. There has to be proof that the crime was motivated by hate. It could be that the guy slept with his wife and he went off the deep end. In that case, the crime was committed maybe out of hate for the man, but not out of hate for an entire population of people.

What about the guy that rapes and murders children. Does he do it out of hate? Anger? Power? All of the above?

What about the husband that brutally kills his wife of 15 years and chops her up into pieces. You can't tell me he doesn't have some intense hate issues going on in his life.

As in the case before, sure your example is a case that most likely involves some hatred. But again, the hatred would be for one person. Not an entire group of people. (unless during the act the man was yelling something about how he hates all women and that we all should die, or something of that nature. And again, that would have to be proven.)

People commit crimes out of hate and anger all the time. I have a son that is Korean. We won't even go into how devastated I would be if something happened to him and to find out someone did it just because he was Korean would make it so much worse. But in my heart of hearts, I believe an evil person is an evil person. If it wasn't a Korean kid, it would have been a black kid or a Hispanic kid.

Then you should have an understanding of how minority groups can be especially vulnerable to hate crimes, and therefore to crime in general. You admit yourself that if you found out that a crime against your son (God willing it never happens) would be "so much worse" if it was committed because of his nation of origin. So you obviously understand that crime itself it bad enough, but to know that there are crimes being committed simply because of a person's race, gender, sexual orientation etc. makes it even worse. It's not so much about the crimes themselves, but the motivation behind the crimes that make hate crimes unique.

Does anyone truly believe Hitler would have been a stellar citizen if there weren't any Jews in the world?

No, I'm sure that we all realize that Hitler was a sick individual. But that doesn't change the fact that he slaughtered countless individuals in the name of a hatred for a group of people. If there were no Jews, perhaps his hatred would have been towards another group. But his motivation was the pure hatred for a group of people. Plain and simple.

 

[ChrizJen]

I understand what you are saying, and I can respect your position but there is a fundamental difference between the way you and I see things. I do not at all believe there is such a thing as a random crime. Many criminologists point out the a victim is selected because the criminal detects a weakness of some kind that he/she can exploit (one of my favorite criminologists is Gavin DeBecker and he makes very good cases for this perspective). According to him, more or less crime is never random... it is only the opportunity that is random.If a person rejects the notion of random crime, then most of the other notions that follow it fall aside. There is a distinction of premeditated crime, which I accept but I do not think that is what we're talking about here.

I do happen to think it is a violation of Civil Rights to say that one group will be denied 'an elevated status as a victim' because they do not belong to a particular group. So many speak about historical identity as victims of hate... exactly whose history is relevant? The problem with this definition is that it is so arbitrary, and people intuitively recognize this truth. Who has a right to say one groups history is more important than another? EVERY group on this planet has a history of being a victim if you look back far enough. Who gets to decide how far back is too far or how far back is relevant? How does a group get to petition for an addendum to this preferred status list? Could a group who feels they are not included but should be appear before an officer of the court somewhere and petition for inclusion? That right there is what is wrong with the idea IMO, it is arbitrary and our laws should not be arbitrary.

You act as if it's a priviledge to belong to a minority who is targeted for crimes because of who they are... I certainly wouldn't ever choose to be. You also make it sound like hate crimes bills are about greater rewards for victims. Again, punishment isn't given to criminals as a reward to a victim. It's given as a punishment to the criminal. It's not a matter of any one victim's rights being more important than any other. It's about crimes that are being committed to entire groups of people simply because of who they are.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I'm obviously not going to see it your way, and you're not going to see it mine.

 

[LuvOrlando]

You act as if it's a priviledge to belong to a minority who is targeted for crimes because of who they are... I certainly wouldn't ever choose to be. You also make it sound like hate crimes bills are about greater rewards for victims. Again, punishment isn't given to criminals as a reward to a victim. It's given as a punishment to the criminal. It's not a matter of any one victim's rights being more important than any other. It's about crimes that are being committed to entire groups of people simply because of who they are.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I'm obviously not going to see it your way, and you're not going to see it mine.

No flames but I won't address the first paragraph because this is digressing into a circular argument which is unavoidable due to our different points of view, and that is counterproductive to any conversation. I have a point of view and am fine with alternative perspectives. It is not my intent to strong arm anyone into agreeing with me.

I agree with your final sentence. Sometimes people just have to agree to disagree, no hard feelings here either

 

[Shutterbug]

http://www.ohio.com/news/51457727.html

More update...basically there are no tips coming in, no witnesses coming forward...

and why?

IMO
1) because of the "dont tell, dont snitch" culture that is so prevalent

2) no witness that is willing to come forward... and why is that?
Fear of retaliation...covering from maybe vandalism to having bullets shot into your house. You know that not everyone in the gang that was there that night is going to be arrested or charged only the ones that could be identified. That leaves the rest of them to strike back at you.

Face it if you have a family, are you going to do something that could put them into harms way even if that something is the right thing to do?