Ultra Advice

[dragitoff]

I know this isn't Run Disney related, but I hate the tone of responses I typically get on other running forums, so I'm posting this question here. I've completed 3 full marathons (including Dopey this year) and a dozen or so half marathons. I've done triathlons (not quite up to even half Iron Man distance). I recently moved to a town that has some amazing trail options for running and the elevation changes at them is quite challenging.

Each year I give myself a new fitness challenge. I'm thinking for 2019, I want to run my first trail Ultra. I've looked up a few and I think I've settled on one that's only a few hours away from me in Huntsville, AL and is NYE. My question is what are the best training plans out there for Ultras?

My base is pretty solid now as I'm currently running 4-5 times per week with 4-6 miles per day on my midweek runs and 10-13 miles on my weekend long runs. I'm doing all my long runs on trails or hybrid trails (part trail, part paved). I won't need to start before long, but I'd like to spend the summer building my base up or at least maintaining it.

I've used Higdon training programs in the past and had good success with them, and I know he offers ultra plans. Just wanted to see if anyone out there has other suggestions or experience with that one. I'll be 40 in a few months and my pace for long runs is usually low 8's, but I modified that for Dopey to about a 9mm avg. for the entire event. The second part of my question is what type of pacing should I lean towards for an ultra? Should I go more of what my marathon pace would be (slightly adjusted for the trail running)? I know for trail ultras there are certain places where you have to walk (or climb) and I'm ok with that. Just know most plans include a pace running day scattered throughout the training plan so I want to know what's best to start with as a goal pace. I've been running long enough to listen to my body and adjust as needed though.

 

[croach]

What is the race distance you’re considering?

 

[dragitoff]

What is the race distance you’re considering?

Sorry, that would've been good info. lol. I'm just going to start with a 50k this time around. After completing that, I may try for something longer like a 50 or even 100 miler.

 

[garneska]

I have not done an ultra but my running buddy moved up to 52.4 mile race. I can’t speak to the plan but he significantly slowed down. We are about 8:30 min pace but for training he did 10 to 10:30. The other thing is to spend training time walking fast. For ultra you will walk so you need to be able to walk quickly. Again train for it. Plus his other thing was eat real food. During training he tried many things. He liked turkey and avocado sandwiches best.

 

[dragitoff]

I have not done an ultra but my running buddy moved up to 52.4 mile race. I can’t speak to the plan but he significantly slowed down. We are about 8:30 min pace but for training he did 10 to 10:30. The other thing is to spend training time walking fast. For ultra you will walk so you need to be able to walk quickly. Again train for it. Plus his other thing was eat real food. During training he tried many things. He liked turkey and avocado sandwiches best.

That's excellent advice. I wondered about the fueling for a race like that. I'm a Cliff Block guy for long runs/races. Those are great for a little calories and some caffeine, but not much else. I could see a sandwich like that being good for fueling and also be filling at the same time.

 

[croach]

I’ve done 50k’s but and I know this will sound bad but I’ve never specifically trained for them. The one I do is in December so it’s kind of just a throw in too my already completed fall training. Plus it’s flat so not as challenging as what your area sounds like. But I know from local trail races that yes it always seems like I run a slower pace and it sounds like you’re already prepared for that. But you can still mix in some road training/speed work/hills to keep your pace. On the trails I think it’s always the climbs that get me bc they tend to steeper and longer than what I’m used to on the road. Just getting out on trails for mileage will probably help a lot with that. I’m not much on giving training advice but just like any race it’s being prepared for the distance. Six miles may not sound like but it’s just something you won’t be used to.

On the nutrition side, ultras usually have aid stations that will have a wide range of food options. Little sandwiches, pretzels, cookies, flat soda, etc. For a 50k I use a combination of gels and the aid stations. And the aid stations will be probably be pretty spread out so not every couple miles like a road race.

If your interested in a flat-ish 50k as a beginner, the one I’ve Dine is the Seashore 50k at VA Beach. Gets you used to the distance. Good luck with getting started. Always nice to try something different.

 

[dragitoff]

I’ve done 50k’s but and I know this will sound bad but I’ve never specifically trained for them. The one I do is in December so it’s kind of just a throw in too my already completed fall training. Plus it’s flat so not as challenging as what your area sounds like. But I know from local trail races that yes it always seems like I run a slower pace and it sounds like you’re already prepared for that. But you can still mix in some road training/speed work/hills to keep your pace. On the trails I think it’s always the climbs that get me bc they tend to steeper and longer than what I’m used to on the road. Just getting out on trails for mileage will probably help a lot with that. I’m not much on giving training advice but just like any race it’s being prepared for the distance. Six miles may not sound like but it’s just something you won’t be used to.

On the nutrition side, ultras usually have aid stations that will have a wide range of food options. Little sandwiches, pretzels, cookies, flat soda, etc. For a 50k I use a combination of gels and the aid stations. And the aid stations will be probably be pretty spread out so not every couple miles like a road race.

If your interested in a flat-ish 50k as a beginner, the one I’ve Dine is the Seashore 50k at VA Beach. Gets you used to the distance. Good luck with getting started. Always nice to try something different.

The road running, especially during the week for pacing, is something I've got to be super aware of. I ran a half in March 2017 @ a 7:23 pace. I used that for my PoT for Marathon Weekend and Star Wars HM Weekend so it was great. I always slow down during the summer because it's so damn hot and humid in the south. Coming out of my normal summer slow-down, I started training for Dopey. I trained at a 9mm pace and that was kind of my target for the entire weekend. A year after that 7:23HM and I had to push pretty hard to avg. 8mm for the First Order Challenge this past weekend. Saying all that to say, pace is important to me. I don't want 9 or even 10mm to become my "new norm" paces so I'll be very aware of maintaining some speedwork in there. I'm pushing 40 so I know I should be slowing down in the coming years, but I'm not quite ready yet. lol.

 

[croach]

The road running, especially during the week for pacing, is something I've got to be super aware of. I ran a half in March 2017 @ a 7:23 pace. I used that for my PoT for Marathon Weekend and Star Wars HM Weekend so it was great. I always slow down during the summer because it's so damn hot and humid in the south. Coming out of my normal summer slow-down, I started training for Dopey. I trained at a 9mm pace and that was kind of my target for the entire weekend. A year after that 7:23HM and I had to push pretty hard to avg. 8mm for the First Order Challenge this past weekend. Saying all that to say, pace is important to me. I don't want 9 or even 10mm to become my "new norm" paces so I'll be very aware of maintaining some speedwork in there. I'm pushing 40 so I know I should be slowing down in the coming years, but I'm not quite ready yet. lol.

Yeah with most races, I think it comes down to what your goal is. If you just want to complete the ultra, then you can probably work out how to do both. But if your main goal is the ultra with a specific time, then obviously your training schedule will need to reflect that.

And you don’t have to slow down just bc you’re pushing 40. I’m 45 and set a half PR at 43 and I hope to set a marathon PR this year. Don’t let that number slow you down.

 

[dragitoff]

For every race, I always set 3 goals.

1. If everything goes just right
2. Realistic goal
3. If the wheels come completely off

That keeps my expectations in check, but I also gives me something extra to push for. I'm SUPER competitive, and push myself, but I also know when it's smart to push through and when it's best to pull back so that system helps me go for it when needed and back off when not.

 

[Ariel484]

Sorry, that would've been good info. lol. I'm just going to start with a 50k this time around. After completing that, I may try for something longer like a 50 or even 100 miler.

"Just"


hahahaha

(in all seriousness, good luck!!)

 

[dragitoff]

"Just"


hahahaha

(in all seriousness, good luck!!)

Thanks. lol. My wife picks on me about that when I say things like "I'm only doing 8 or 9 miles today" when it's a long run day.

 

[DopeyBadger]

The second part of my question is what type of pacing should I lean towards for an ultra? Should I go more of what my marathon pace would be (slightly adjusted for the trail running)? I know for trail ultras there are certain places where you have to walk (or climb) and I'm ok with that. Just know most plans include a pace running day scattered throughout the training plan so I want to know what's best to start with as a goal pace. I've been running long enough to listen to my body and adjust as needed though.

7:23 HM training pacing chart



8:00 HM training pacing chart



McMillan estimated 50k pace based on both:



So the 50k pace would be a touch slower than Marathon pace, which would make sense since you're doing an extra 5ish miles.

As for training paces, I'm an advocate for train where you are currently. So do you feel the 8 min/mile HM pace is representative of your current fitness? If so, then I'd focus on that pace chart. If you truly feel you're in the same shape as when you did the 7:23 HM, then that's the pace chart I'd go with. But be honest with yourself because the current fitness pacing will aid in yielding the best outcome.

I've never run an ultra marathon. Neither have I ever written a training plan for one, or studied training plans for an ultra. I did some general consulting for someone who was considering it a few months back. For me, it came down to this premise. A marathon is 99% aerobic. Essentially that means anything longer than a marathon is either also 99% or moves to 100% aerobic. Thus, I don't view the training terribly different. I think the biggest consideration would be time on feet. I'm sure there are good arguments on both sides as to where that threshold falls for duration workouts when it comes to an ultra. For me, I would probably still adhere to my principles of duration on a 50k training plan. Which means I'd keep the max duration training run to no more than 150-180 minutes at a pace of MP+9%. I'd balance out the training amongst the rest of the week. If someone wanted to try and stretch the duration out beyond 180 minutes, then I would definitely consider slowing down the pace beyond MP+9%. If one were looking to maximize training while still doing other paces, then I'd look at a plan from Hansons, Daniels, or Pfitz. The faster paces won't necessarily help you much on 50k race day, but if your goal is to maintain some faster paced work then those would still be there with a traditional marathon plan.

As for nutrition, agree with others. I've always read/heard that as you increase the distance it's more common to consume whole foods rather than gels. Per Daniels, a marathon is generally run at 75-84% VO2max. A 50k would be slightly slower relatively speaking (so on the lower end). A marathon is estimated to burn about 3145 calories (for a 164 pound person). A 50k would be an estimated 3727 calories for that same person. At a speed of 75% VO2max, the average person gets 70% of their energy from burning carbs. Which means that you would need about 582 additional calories (or 145 g additional carbs) when comparing in-race nutrition between a marathon and 50k. Since the body can store a limited glycogen store in the body (male average is 21% bw in kilograms * 80), then the above and beyond between the marathon and 50k is purely in-race. This is a very specific example and does not mean these numbers are the same for you as an individual, but merely as an example as to the increase in needs between the two distances.

 

[dragitoff]

I definitely don't think I'm in the same shape I was when I ran that PR HM, even though it was barely a year ago. I'd probably lean more to that 8mm range now, although with training, I could get back down to a faster time than I'm currently running. With the terrain and climbing of the type of ultra I'm looking to run, I think I would rather train conservatively. I think the best and most consistent thing I'm hearing with this strategy is just being on my feet and moving that long. It's different than anything else. My worst marathon (when my calves and quads locked up mile 16 and I gutted out the last ten mile death march) would be a good gauge of the only time I've constantly moved on my feet that hard for that long.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Something else you might find useful is to download Strava, and then download the google chrome plug-in Stravistix. The Stravistix analyzes training load, which would be a useful tool as you progress in your training for your ultra to make sure you don't push the boundaries and overtrain. If you have any questions on its use let me know. It's a nifty tool and it's free.

 

[dragitoff]

@DopeyBadger your help is always greatly appreciated!

 

[BikeFan]

Congratulations on deciding to try an ultra, and good luck! Trail races and ultras are great fun, and I hope you enjoy it. I've done three (50K, a 36M, and a 50M) and learned a few things in the process which I can share in the hopes you won't make my mistakes!

Training: For a 50K, a marathon plan is fine. It won't hurt to add in some extra miles, but a good marathon plan will get to the finish of a 50K. That being said, train on trails as much as you can. Trail races are different in that the uneven surface affects your stride. On the road, it's easy to settle into a smooth, consistent stride. On the trail, depending on how technical it is, you may have to be constantly adjusting your stride to account for roots, rocks, logs, and other obstacles. Over many miles, it definitely affects your legs differently than on the road. Be prepared for that.

Gear: You'll want to make sure your clothes and shoes can handle the conditions. My first ultra had a creek crossing early in the race which totally immersed both feet in the water. I wasn't expecting this and had not worn quick-drying socks. As a result, my feet were miserable most of the race and I got horrible blisters. After that, I learned which of my running socks dried the fastest and wore thost for my later ultras. I also started carrying extra socks. Be prepared for the conditions by testing out your gear beforehand. You'll definitely experience chaffing in an ultra, so stock up on the Body Glide or whatever you use beforehand, and treat any problem areas early. Also, as someone else noted above, most ultras have larger gaps between aid stations, and most trail runners carry water with them as a result. I use a backpack with a water bladder and storage room for extra food and gear. Other runners use handheld bottles or fuel belts. Whatever you choose, test it out beforehand, obviously.

Nutrition: You're definitely going to need to take some calories in a 50K. Your training runs are when you need to find out what your stomach likes and doesn't like. Most ultras will list what the aid stations will have, and it's usually a wide variety of food and drink. Know in advance what you can and can't have.

Pacing: Like in a marathon, starting out too fast will come back to haunt you in a big way in an ultra. Since the terrain will play a big role in your pace, I won't worry too much about splits, and just focus instead on running by feel. In the beginning, you definitely want to feel like you're taking it easy, especially in the first half. After about mile 20, you can start picking it up if you're feeling good. Lots of people start out too fast and death-march to the finish. Avoid that mistake and you can finish strong, passing scores of people as you pick it up toward the finish.

Hope that helps and good luck! Can't wait to hear how it goes.

 

[Keels]

Good luck taking on something new - the challenge is always exciting!

@croach and @BikeFan are two of the most knowledgable guys around these parts when it comes to stuff like this, so I know they've given you some great information.

One of my closest girlfriends just ran her first trail ultras earlier this year (Rocky Raccoon 50K, Tinajas 100K - they're harder to find where we live in Texas, but doable) and before she even finished, put herself in for the Leadville 100 lottery ... and she got in. Along with the things the guys mentioned above (gear and fuel is the most important thing, I've learned), she's really had success once she found a trail running group to train with. They do combinations of long runs out on the trails close by, as well as far away (a couple of hours away where they can get some elevation), and then they've run from Fort Worth to Dallas at least three times now (it's about 34-37 miles, depending on where they start and finish), mostly along the river or through neighborhoods, to help get a feel for having to "be on your own" for fuel and such. Or even just being alone running in general and having to navigate with only minimal course marking.
That said, I've also watched "The Barkley Marathons", so AMA!

 

[dragitoff]

All amazing advice. What even got me thinking along these lines were we recently moved to Dothan, AL from Georgia. There are quite a few great trails near my house. Once I started running on them, I loved the scenery and challenges it created. As mentioned above, I couldn't just settle into a mindless pace, which sometimes is a good thing. The constant challenge of watching the terrain and pace keep your mind active, which for me has always been a good thing when running longer distances. The trail nearest to my house is a 3.25 mile loop that is mostly hard pack and very wide. There's even a little asphalt so it's more hybrid than anything, but I found myself flying around that trail and loving it.

The week before Star Wars weekend, I tried another trail out since I was tapering and fell in love with it. It's got more than 10 miles of trails with varying grades and elevations. There are long bridges over creeks, climbs, narrow places that you really have to navigate, roller coaster hills, and so much and I've yet to explore the other side of it! I knew if I was going to do a true trail endurance event, I had the perfect training grounds in my backyard. Like I said in the OP, I give myself a new fitness challenge each year. 2 years ago, it was my first triathlon. Last year it was Dopey (even though I technically ran it this year). This year, my challenge will be this Ultra. Who knows what next year will be?

I'm currently trying out shoes and gear. The nutrition will come in once I increase the mileage. I was a Newton guy for years and years (even have one tattooed on my left shoulder in commemoration of my first full), but I recently switched to Hokas about a year ago after seeing my Newtons wear out so quickly and having a little knee pain. I'm currently running in Hoka Speedgoats (and love them) and I just ordered a pair of ON Cloudventures to try out as well and give me a pair to alternate with. I also ordered another trail hydration vest. I've used them before because I ran on a keto diet for over a year and did my own half powerade zero/half water for long distance races while I was doing that since most races have the full calorie (and full sugar) versions of sports drinks at aid stations. The cheap one I used for Dopey this year caused some serious chafing so I splurged and bought a nice one so I'm hopeful it will be a little nicer to my skin, although I've got plenty of bodyglide on hand if needed.

The extra socks are a great suggestion. The race I'm leaning towards signing up for doesn't appear to have any water on it; however I will be prepared either way. The race does have a good amount of elevation change (est. 3500ft.), but it loops so it looks like you'll get that up and down as you complete the loops.

 

[FFigawi]

Nutrition is something you'll really need to nail down as you move beyond a 50k. Up until about that distance and time on your feet, you can survive on gels and blocks. Beyond that, when you get to 50 miles or more, many people switch to solid food or something like Tailwind instead. During my longer races, I pretty much lived on salted potatoes and flat coke.

 

[BikeFan]

@Keels Thanks for the shout-out and good luck to your friend at Leadville! That race is a classic. I'd love to hear how it goes.

@dragitoff Sounds like you've got a good idea of how to prepare for your ultra. Great description of trail running, too. I love it for those same reasons. Such a thrill to be running through the woods surrounded by nature. One more thing I forgot to mention, since you're in the South (like me) - ticks! Those little buggers are everywhere around here and it's probably the same around you. As soon as you're done, do a thorough check for those guys. They can be hard to spot, but you'll want to get rid of them as soon as you can. Good luck!