TSA mess and the police

[eliza61]

But you see, I believe many of us are reaching a breaking point. I know I am. As I said, my Thanksgiving plane trip was booked prior to these latest changes. I am one of those people who would always fly instead of driving if the drive was over 4 hours. I despise driving. The thought of a cross country car trip is hell on earth to me....especially in our small car. I could go on, but you get it.

For Christmas, we have decided to drive from Texas to WDW. One thousand godawful miles of road. But the only ones who will see me close to naked will be the family members sharing a hotel room. And of those, only DH gets to be friendly enough to get anywhere near an "enhanced pat down."

I put up with having to get to the airport waaaaaaaay ahead of time. I put up with having to put TSA locks on my cases and hoped they would actually open them instead of break them. I put up with a metal detector and having to take my stupid shoes off. I learned to pack 3-1-1. Once, they even gave me a cursory pat down two years ago and that was about my limit. When I asked what that was about, I was told I was randomly chosen. Oh goody.

But letting a perfect stranger see me (and maybe my little girl) buck nekkid when I have done absolutely nothing to raise an eyebrow other than commit the "crime" of wanting to travel in America.....No thanks. And no way am I going to let anyone, let alone a stranger, get THAT physcially familiar with me. Not no, but hell no. I've taught DD that NO ONE touches her in certain areas. But now some flunky in a blue uniform gets to run their hands all over her for no good reason whatsoever, except that they CAN? Well, Hell hasn't frozen over yet. So no, keep your intrusive, invasive, unwanted, unecessary hands off my child. BTW, do we (the public) get to feel up the TSA folks after they've done it to us? Seems fair to me. That might slow them down.

Nope. Naked pics and full on groping (molesting in the case of DD) is beyond my limits of tolerance. They can stick their plane tickets where the sun don't shine. Then they can let a fellow TSA agent do a cavity search to locate that ticket. THIS....These two things....are going to be the triggers that push many Americans over the edge and make them say, "Enough is enough."

Time will tell. AAA is pretty much projecting that air travel will be up 4% this thanksgiving. Now they do get their numbers from teh airline industry so they could be giving us spin to make themselves look good but why would they?

No one I know has plans to cancel their flights and I fly semi monthly for work and haven't heard one peep out of my coworkers about cancelling flights or perhaps telecommuting.

I'm a born cynic, I think pretty much as long as southwest keeps offering 19.99 dollar flights with bags flying free folks will still fly and if some one wants to paste my naked picture across the web, have fun. I've seen those pictures, if that's what gets their jollies off, they've got bigger issues.

We've got a family vacation to vegas Christmas, I'm going to Paris in May and then 2 trips to the world next August and November. We plan on flying each and every time.

time will tell but good luck with that.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Interesting article:

TSA to investigate Oceanside man ejected from airport, may prosecute

By Robert J. Hawkins

SAN DIEGO — The Transportation Security Administration has opened an investigation targeting John Tyner, the Oceanside man who was ejected from the airport Saturday morning after refusing to undertake a full body scan and, subsequently, an invasive body search.

Tyner recorded the half-hour long encounter on his cell phone and later posted it to his personal blog, along with an extensive account of the incident. That blog and a subsequent story on signonsandiego.com posted Saturday night and gone viral, attracting hundreds of thousands of readers, and thousands of comments.

Michael J. Aguilar, chief of the TSA office in San Diego, called a press conference at the office Monday afternoon to announce the probe. The investigation could lead to prosecution and “civil penalties” of up to $11,000, he said.

TSA agents told Tyner on Saturday that he could be fined up to $10,000.

“That’s the old fine,” said Aguilar. “It has been increased.”

++++++ ++++++ ++++++

Saturday, Nov. 13, 2010 -- John Tyner won't be pheasant hunting in South Dakota with his father-in-law any time soon.

Tyner was simultaneously thrown out of San Diego International Airport on Saturday morning for refusing to submit to a security check and threatened with a lawsuit and a $10,000 fine if he left.

And he got the whole thing on his cell phone. Well, the audio at least.

(Listen to the audio)

The 31-year-old Oceanside software programmer was supposed to leave from Lindbergh Field on Saturday morning and until a TSA agent directed him toward one of the recently installed full-body scanners, Tyner seemed to be on his way.

Tyner balked.

He'd been reading about the scanners and didn't like them for a number of reasons, ranging from health concerns to "a huge invasion of privacy." He'd even checked the TSA website which indicated that San Diego did not have the machines, he said in a phone interview Saturday night.

"I was surprised to see them," said Tyner.

He also did something that may seem odd to some, manipulative to others but fortuitous to plenty of others for whom Tyner is becoming something of a folk hero: Tyner turned on his cell phone's video camera and placed it atop the luggage he sent through the x-ray machine.

He may not be the first traveler tossed from an airport for security reasons but he could well be the first to have the whole experience captured on his cell phone.

During the next half-hour, his cell phone recorded Tyner refusing to submit to a full body scan, opting for the traditional metal scanner and a basic "pat down" -- and then refusing to submit to a "groin check" by a TSA security guard.

He even told the guard, "You touch my junk and I'm going to have you arrested."

That threat triggered a code red of sorts as TSA agents, supervisors and eventually the local police gravitated to the spot where the reluctant traveler stood in his stocking feet, his cell phone sitting in the nearby bin (which he wasn't allowed to touch) picking up the audio.

According to TSA at the time the controversial body scanners were installed, travelers would have the option to request walking through the traditional metal detector but that option would be accompanied by a "pat down."

Why Tyner was targeted for a secondary pat down is unknown.

Asked if he thought he looked like a terrorist, Tyner said no. "I'm 6-foot-1, white with short brown hair," he said Saturday night.

Was he singled out for "punishment"?

Before Tyner was told he was getting a "groin check," a TSA agent is heard on the recording telling another agent "I had a problem with the passenger I was patting down. So I backed down. He was obnoxious."

Tyner is sure he was talking about someone else. On the whole, with a single final exception, he found the agents "professional if standoffish."

He did marvel that while his own situation was being deliberated, many passengers passed through the metal detector and on to their flights with no pat-down. "One guy even set off the alarm and they sent him through again without a pat-down," he said.

Once he threatened to have the TSA agent arrested though, events turned surreal.

A supervisor is heard re-explaining the groin check process to Tyner then adding "If you're not comfortable with that, we can escort you back out and you don't have to fly today."

Tyner responded "OK, I don't understand how a sexual assault can be made a condition of my flying."

"This is not considered a sexual assault," replied the supervisor, calmly.

"It would be if you were not the government," said Tyner.

"By buying your ticket you gave up a lot of rights," countered the TSA supervisor.

"I think the government took them away after 9/11," said Tyner.

"OK," came the reply.

More senior TSA administrators showed up, and one San Diego police officer. Tyner's personal information was taken down and then he was escorted out of the security area. After he put his shoes back.

His father-in-law, a 40-year retired deputy sheriff, can be heard pleading in the back ground for some common sense.

Tyner went over to the American Airlines counter where an agent, to his amazement, refunded the price of his non-refundable ticket.

Before he could leave, however, he was again surrounded by TSA employees who told him he couldn't leave the security area. One, who kept insisting he was trying to help Tyner, told him that if he left he would be subject to a civil suit and a $10,000 fine.

Tyner asked if the agents who had escorted him from the security area would also be sued and fined.

The same man who told Tyner he would be sued and fined if he left, also insisted that he did not tell him he couldn't leave.

So Tyner left.

Two hours later he wrote the whole experience up on his blog and posted the audio files to YouTube.

You could say it has gone viral.

By Saturday evening, 70,000 people had accessed the entry and 488 comments were posted to the blog item. Those comments are divided over Tyner's experience. "Only 5 percent say I'm an idiot," he said.

Far more applaud him for "standing up" to the security forces. Many more people share his disdain for how airport security is conducted.

"People generally are angry about what is going on," said Tyner, "but they don't know how to assert their rights....there is a general feeling that TSA is ineffective, out of control, over-reaching."

If Tyner has touched some undercurrent of resentment, he doesn't want to be the guy who leads the charge to overturn the machines. "I'm not so sure I'm the right person to start a movement," he said.

If he isn't, he can sound at times like he's auditioning for the job.

Tyner points out that every terrorist act on an airplane has been halted by passengers. "It's time to stop treating passengers like criminals and start treating them as assets," he said.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/nov/14/tsa-ejects-oceanside-man-airport-refusing-security/

 

[CathrynRose]

Have you seen this one?

http://www.usofearth.com/tp/?p=3367

It's one of the reporters, for the newstations daughter... and he has it on film.

What a touching way to start or end a trip - no pun intended.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Napolitano: ‘Adjustments,’ ‘More to Come’ on Women in Hijabs Undergoing Airport Full-Body Pat-Downs

(CNSNews.com) - When asked today if she will insist that Muslim women wearing hijabs must go through full body pat downs before boarding planes, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano did not say yes or no, but told CNSNews.com there will be “adjustments” and “more to come” on the issue.

“On the pat downs, CAIR [the Council on American-Islamic Relations] has recommended that Muslim women wearing hijabs refuse to go through the full body pat downs before boarding planes,” CNSNews.com asked Napolitano at a Monday press conference. “Will you insist that they do go through full body pat downs before boarding planes?”

“Look, we have, like I said before, we are doing what we need to do to protect the traveling public and adjustments will be made where they need to be made,” Napolitano responded. “With respect to that particular issue, I think there will be more to come. But, again, the goal here, you know, we’re not doing this just to do it. We’re doing it because we need to keep powders and gels and liquids off of planes that are unauthorized just as we need to keep metals off of planes.

“This is being done in recognizing that we all have a collective role in our security and we all know and can recognize that there are threats and risks that have been articulated by those who seek to harm the United States, particularly in the aviation environment," said Napolitano. "And, so, you know, what we are doing is designed to really be risk based, to be intelligence based, to be layered like I said, when you get to the airport at that screening center, that’s really--these TSO’s [Transportation Security Officers] are really the last line of protection we have for the aircraft and that’s the way we’re going to evaluate things.”

Napolitano responded to CNSNews.com’s question at a Monday press conference held at Reagan National Airport outside Washington, D.C., that she called to announce that the department’s “If You See Something, Say Something” campaign was going to be placing advertisements around the Washington, D.C. area to encourage people to report what she called “indicators of terrorism” to law enforcement agencies.

"As Americans head into the busy holiday travel season, it is important to remember that every individual has a role to play in keeping our country safe and secure," Napolitano said in a statement. "The ‘If You See Something, Say Something' campaign encourages travelers and those who work in the hotel industry to identify and report indicators of terrorism, crime and other threats to the proper law enforcement authorities."

Napolitano was joined at the press conference by Transportation Security Administration (TSA) Administrator John Pistole, D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier, Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Police Chief Stephen Holl and Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority Police Chief Michael Taborn.

Last week, the Council on American-Islamic Relations issued a “Travel Advisory” that included “pecial recommendations for Muslim women who wear hijab.” These recommendations suggest that women wearing the hijab decline to undergo fully body pat-down’s when boarding commercial airflights.

“In this situation [when a woman has been selected for secondary screening], you may be asked to submit to a pat-down or to go through a full body scanner,” the CAIR recommendations say. “If you are selected for the scanner, you may ask to go through a pat-down instead.

“Before you are patted down, you should remind the TSA officer that they are only supposed to pat down the area in question, in this scenario, your head and neck,” says the recommendations. “They SHOULD NOT subject you to a full-body or partial-body pat-down.”

“Instead of the pat-down,” say the recommendations, “you can always request to pat down your own scarf, including head and neck area, and have the officers perform a chemical swipe of your hands.”

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/napolitano-adjustments-more-come-body-pa

--------------------

Another interesting article. Sounds like a lot of tap dancing. I wonder what will be the outcome? Either way, some people are going to be very angry.

 

[CathrynRose]

Okay - so wait a minute.... am I reading they are exempt?

 

[OceanAnnie]

Okay - so wait a minute.... am I reading they are exempt?

There wasn't a "real" answer. I think somewhere between "adjustments" and "more to come", the answer may be yes.

 

[JLTraveling]

So let me get this straight. The entire issue is supposedly that Muslim terrorists are going to blow up planes using explosives that can only be found by full body scanners or pat downs (*NOTE* This is not my personal belief, just my interpretation of the TSA's position). So they're going to pat everyone ELSE down, but not Muslim women. On what planet does this make sense again?

 

[*Meagan*]

Now they've gone a step further and I'm asked to expose myself and my family to radiation for a luxury trip. Radiation which we have spent an entire decade being told will kill us if we go for a walk without sunscreen, radiation that causes all sorts of cancers from skin to thyroid & on & on so now, what, it's safe? How did that tricky little u-turn happen? Never mind myself and my kids, what about my DH who flies for business? Who is keeping track of his exposure levels? Will he get one of those little readers that x-ray techs get to use to record his exposure or is he just expendable? No, they just crossed a line for me and it's time for put up or shut up. I better start hearing how good this is for me and how or I'm just done with the whole thing. I'm so very done, I don't NEED to fly and I won't. But my DH does and I'm ticked he has to choose between being groped and radiation.

BTW, my DD11 gets a lead wrap covering her ovaries when she gets an x-ray. Come to think of it I do too.

Its called a dosimeter. And the new scanners are give off less radiation than you receive in flight.

I work with radiation daily. And I have seen pregnant woman going through these scanners.

Anything that administers radiation to a person must be approved with the FDA, physicists,radiation protection and the list goes on etc. There is no way they could be dosing people with radiation and not telling them!

BTW:
background radiation and cumulative radiation are two totally different radiation spectrums.

quote: "So if a pregnant passenger wishes to take the most cautious approach and keep her fetal exposure below the 1,000 millirem (10 milliSievert) range, she could still undergo thousands of TSA scans per year. Again, the radiation exposure caused merely by flying would far exceed that caused by the scanner. Furthermore, most of the TSA scanner radiation would be stopped at the skin before it could even reach the fetus, as opposed to the various forms of natural gamma and solar radiation received during the flight which would penetrate deeper into the body."

 

[C.Ann]

Interesting article:

TSA to investigate Oceanside man ejected from airport, may prosecute

The Transportation Security Administration has opened an investigation targeting John Tyner, the Oceanside man who was ejected from the airport Saturday morning after refusing to undertake a full body scan and, subsequently, an invasive body search.
________________________________________________________

Michael J. Aguilar, chief of the TSA office in San Diego, called a press conference at the office Monday afternoon to announce the probe. The investigation could lead to prosecution and “civil penalties” of up to $11,000, he said.

TSA agents told Tyner on Saturday that he could be fined up to $10,000.

“That’s the old fine,” said Aguilar. “It has been increased.”

_______________________________________________________
Tyner was simultaneously thrown out of San Diego International Airport on Saturday morning for refusing to submit to a security check and threatened with a lawsuit and a $10,000 fine if he left.

During the next half-hour, his cell phone recorded Tyner refusing to submit to a full body scan, opting for the traditional metal scanner and a basic "pat down" -- and then refusing to submit to a "groin check" by a TSA security guard.
_________________________________________________________________
.

Why Tyner was targeted for a secondary pat down is unknown.
____________________________________________________________

Asked if he thought he looked like a terrorist, Tyner said no. "I'm 6-foot-1, white with short brown hair," he said Saturday night.

Was he singled out for "punishment"?

___________________________________________________________

Once he threatened to have the TSA agent arrested though, events turned surreal.

A supervisor is heard re-explaining the groin check process to Tyner then adding "If you're not comfortable with that, we can escort you back out and you don't have to fly today."

_______________________________________________

Tyner went over to the American Airlines counter where an agent, to his amazement, refunded the price of his non-refundable ticket.

Before he could leave, however, he was again surrounded by TSA employees who told him he couldn't leave the security area. One, who kept insisting he was trying to help Tyner, told him that if he left he would be subject to a civil suit and a $10,000 fine.

Tyner asked if the agents who had escorted him from the security area would also be sued and fined.

The same man who told Tyner he would be sued and fined if he left, also insisted that he did not tell him he couldn't leave.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/nov/14/tsa-ejects-oceanside-man-airport-refusing-security/

____________________________________________________

Okay - sorry - I just chopped the heck out of your post - leaving what I find really important issues..

I just watched/listened to all THREE of the videos/conversations he recorded on his cell phone.. It took a looooong time - but was definitely worth it!!!

First and foremost - VERY important:

He was randomly selected for the pat down..

(It's repeated over and over and over again - by both him and the TSA people..) No suspicious behavior - totally random selection..

He asked repeatedly if he could go through the metal detector (like 80% of the other people were) and was told no - over and over again..

He was also told by TSA (and a supervisor) that if he chose not to have the pat down he didn't have to fly today and could leave..

They never said he would be arrested and/or fined.. He was free to leave..

So now he's facing all of this? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why.. He refused to be bullied, chose not to fly rather than be groped, and put all of the conversations on YouTube for everyone else to see and hear!!!

Random selection - and - was told he was free to not fly and could leave instead - with NO mention of a fine!!..

Takes quite awhile, but anyone really interested in finding out what's really going on must listen to those recordings..

It's scary - and infuriating!!

 

[sbell111]

In my toiletry bag is a cheap plastic knife. One time, I accidently carried it through security. It was a violation of security to do so, but I didn't realize that I had made the error until later on and I chose not to turn myself in. I've also seen a few really nice knives that were made out of various polymers and ceramics that would not have registered on the old magnetometers. I'd rather that bad guys never get on airplanes with any of these items.

The screening methods described in this thread would stop people from bringing these items through security. As a bonus they also give us a shot at stopping things like the Xmas day crotch bomb.

Okay. Here's the question, though: if the person who is carrying the knife takes it on in carryon, it should presumably be found via the baggage x-ray. If it is on his person, it might still be detected by a LEO observing behavior, if we had a sufficient number of LEOs observing behavior airside.

An unlimited number of LEOs observing behavior would still not be able to definitely spot an individual with a concealed weapon.

But beyond that, what exactly is that person going to be able to able to accomplish with a ceramic knife now? He won't be able to use it to force his way into the cockpit and hijack the aircraft. Yes, he might kill one or two members of the crew or passengers before someone managed to jump him, but while that would be very bad, it isn't a mass murder. Could he use it to manage to remove floor panels in the head, crawl into the undercarriage, and cut a hydraulic cable in order to bring the aircraft down? Probably not.

You assume that pilots are unerring machines who always follow regs. What you are forgetting is that pilots are human. As such, they may or may not be able to sit back while their friends and innocent women and children are killed. It's impossible to know what a person will do until he is put in that situation.

Of course, even if the terrorist does not breach the cockpit door, passenger deaths remain unacceptable. Multiple deaths aboard a flight would spread terror just as well as if the cockpit was breached, after all.

Meanwhile, how much money have we just spent on dozens of backscatter machines to save only one or two lives, when we might have used that same money on gathering intelligence to find the guy who is shopping around to buy a military-grade missile and a launcher to go with it?

There are a few ways to answer this. First, I suppose that if it were your life that this technology saved, then you might think that it is money well spent. Also, it should be noted that the idea that we either buy imaging equipment or gather intelligence is inherently flawed. Finally, by focusing on the knife, you are ignoring the bombs that can still take down the aircraft.

 

[CathrynRose]

____________________________________________________



Takes quite awhile, but anyone really interested in finding out what's really going on must listen to those recordings..

It's scary - and infuriating!!

I listened - and agree.

Someone mentioned a ways back about being free to leave if they were chosen... obviously that is NOT the case.

I hope they do sue and fine him. You know how many people are going to be jumping to defend him???

 

[TwinsinCA]

Does anyone have a recent and accurate list of which airports have the scanners? I am a few months away from having to make reservations for next Christmas (we're using miles) and I am trying to find out which L.A. area airports have them. I know LAX does but what about Orange County or Ontario? Minneapolis would be our destination and I have seen MSP on one list as having them, and not the other. I will seriously choose an airport without them if at all possible. Ordinarily I'd just call the airports and ask. But I am guessing the airports are not going to be happy about a question like that.

I also don't understand the frequency in which they are used. I can't figure out if an airport has them if it means

-everyone goes through?
-random people are selected to go through and the rest go through the metal detector?

Or does it depend on the airport -- or even which terminal?

And if an airport does not have the scanners are they stepping up "enhanced patdowns" for random travelers?

If I know that flying out of LAX means I WILL be going through it, that is one thing. If I might be one out of 20 or 50 or whatever, I might just take my chances. I wish I could get some specifics so I can make an informed decision before I decide what to do. This is putting a serious crimp in my travel plans. I will not go through the scanners and hate the idea of the pat down. Either option for my daughters makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[kaytieeldr]

You were lucky.

There isn't a single photograph that could possibly be considered demonstrating any type of molestation or assault. Even the first picture depicts a TSO patting down a potential passenger's sternum (nothing else) clearly using the back of her hand.

And who in blazes is taking these pictures??? THAT seems to be FAR more an invasion of privacy than any brief pat-down like the ones depicted in these photos or the one eliza61 described!!!

 

[bicker]

If that poll is accurate, the airports will be empty and the flights dirt cheap a week from Wednesday. LOL

Which just goes to show that the vast majority of people talk big but don't back up their threats with action, if push comes to shove, because they're just exaggerating their concern to try to have greater influence on changing things than their concern actually merits. That's a major factor that needs to be, and is factored into to what extent such input is given weight, when reasonable consideration is applied in decision-making.

I didn't say I was "OK" with it. I stated what I experienced. I am not a cheerleader for the TSA, but I am pragmatic enough to not kick up a fuss or go through the line with a major attitude towards the TSA agents.

Yes good point, and I do wish those folks who are critical of the TSA would stop distorting what everyone else is saying, so that they have something easy to argue against.

But really, what happens if they do go back to the other system then another attack happens. Don't you think people will want the the head of the TSA roasted for not doing enough?

This is one of those additional considerations that some folks earlier in this thread doggedly refused to acknowledge, but you're absolutely on target. We The People have crafted our society such that this is not only a valid, but in many ways an overriding criterion. If we don't like then, then we need to stop acting out like children when something goes wrong by seeking blood from anyone convenient (as opposed to placing the blame on terrorists, for example, because there isn't enough personal gratification to be derived from doing so; or placing the blame on ourselves, for being too tax-averse to fund adequate systems).

So, I would rather put the blame on all of this on the terrorists and not the TSA. If there are a few agents that overstep, then they should be dealt with.

Yes, absolutely. The idea that systems shouldn't be put in place because there might be some few individuals who transgress is ridiculous. That is like saying that we should close all the department stores because some people shoplift.

I called my senator and told them I was in favor of the new methods. We had a discussion about how people who have negative experiences or are against issues talk more than those that have positive experiences or are for certain issues.

Yes, very true. I don't remember the exact numbers (I've been out of the industry for twelve years, so some details are getting cloudy), but I think it was between 8:1 and 16:1.

 

[bicker]

Yes, SOME parents would indeed use children as suicide bombers. Some parents. But if even one speck of common sense was used and we weren't so afraid of breaking some PC rules, anyone could figure out that DH, DD and I are as safe as it gets.

That's a wholly self-serving claim, without any merit. There is no easy way to tell who's safe and who's not without security measures employed. You may feel that characteristics of your life make you somehow "obviously" a good person, but that's not the case. Priests have been convicted of abusing children. Doctors have been convicted of harming people in the most horrific ways. No one gets a free pass just because they feel they deserve one.

Beyond that, any parent who refuses to go along with a terrorist trying to use their child as a mule for explosives, under a threat of "cooperate or the child dies right now", is an idiot.

In no way, by any stretch of the most vivid TSA imagination, are were within a country mile of being anywhere near a threat.....

They cannot believe your claim, because anyone who was a threat would make the same claim.

And the sense we have most taken leave of is COMMON SENSE.

That's more self-serving nonsense. If it was common sense, then we'd agree about it. What you're advocating is not common sense - it is your own personal preference, and indeed some people share it with you, but don't make the error many people in your position make, by assuming that what you believe and value is somehow generally superior to what everyone else believes and value. Reasonable people disagree, and claiming that your side is "common sense" is ridiculous.

There are better ways to spot said freak without molesting scads of little kids.

So you claim, but going back to what I was saying earlier to another poster, the citizens of our country impose myriad obligations, objectives and expectations on the government and its agencies. Your simplistic analysis ignores most of them.

We're not any safer. We're just sheep being herded along blindly.

If you want things to change, then change the American people, first. Get them to act reasonably and rationally. Get them to stop placing double-standards on those that serve them. We've all collectively made the quagmire that we live in, and now we have to live with the consequences of our collective national attitude.

 

[bicker]

And why 12? 13 is still legally a child - as is 14, 15, 16 and 17!!!

Indeed, and as I posted earlier, there have been 10 year old suicide bombers.

Right now the TSA knows there are people griping but hopes all these small groups will go away and actually knows it will go away. When gas prices shot up hugely after Hurricane Katrina, people complained, tried to organize gas out days.....but in the end people are still driving going places. The only way TSA will change the way it does things is if its pressured...not from you or me..but from the airlines. That will only happen when airlines feel they are losing too business because of the TSA guidelines. ... People will continue to fly. Yes they will gripe about it but they will still put up with it because of the convenience that flying gives you. 24 hours cramped up in a smelly minivan or go through the security screening. I am betting most will reason it down enough to the point that they will see the screening as a minor inconvenience to avoid the 24 hour drive.

I agree with most of what you said, though I'm not as sure as you are that critics will be unsuccessful is perverting the system via the media to get their way. Regardless, what you've outlined is the reasonable way of addressing something like this: See if the critics really believe what they're going on about, by seeing if they put their money where their mouths are. I hope that the government isn't snowed by the mob mentality they're being inundated with this week, and that they wait to see if the reasonable balance that the agency arrives at actually needs any correction.

 

[Colleen27]

He was also told by TSA (and a supervisor) that if he chose not to have the pat down he didn't have to fly today and could leave..

They never said he would be arrested and/or fined.. He was free to leave..

So now he's facing all of this? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why.. He refused to be bullied, chose not to fly rather than be groped, and put all of the conversations on YouTube for everyone else to see and hear!!!

Random selection - and - was told he was free to not fly and could leave instead - with NO mention of a fine!!..

Takes quite awhile, but anyone really interested in finding out what's really going on must listen to those recordings..

It's scary - and infuriating!![/B]

It really is. They had the security director of the San Diego airport on CNN this morning and he said that for refusing to submit to the patdown this man is facing fines of up to $11000.

Apparently it is illegal to leave once you've begun the security process, to protect against terrorists scouting out security to prepare for an attack. It is just another safety measure that fails the common sense test; terrorism in the modern era is too well funded and flights too cheap to think that anyone bent on doing harm would call attention to themselves by going through security without any intention of boarding a plane.

 

[skater]

Because you are not required to submit to it. You will be allowed to leave without submitting to the search--you are not going to be held at airport security if you say you'd rather opt out all together and go home. What you will NOT be able to do is go into the airport and take a flight.

I didn't respond sooner because we were out of town, but it sounds like you are not allowed to leave once you start the process .

 

[skater]

Exactly. And since travel by air is still not a right, it in no way goes against anything in the constitution.

You have choices.

Submit to "harmful radiation", "molestation", or go home, get in your car and drive there, on the roads, where more people DIE a year from drunks and reckless drivers than radiation.

Seriously.

But couldn't you carry that argument out further - what is a "right" in this country? If its not a right to fly (if you can afford it), is it a right to go the mall? Is it a "right" to go to the grocery store? What happens after a terrorist attack at the local mall? What security measures will be implemented?

I guess nothing we do is a "right" if air travel isn't.

I'm tired, so I'm not sure I'm giving a totally logical argument - but I just don't see how air travel is any less a right than anything else we do in this country.

I still haven't seen an argument that convinces me that the new TSA regs are anything less than unreasonable search.

 

[bicker]

I mentioned this earlier in another thread: The time to decide whether or not you are willing to be screened is really before you get to the airport. If you're not willing to be screened according to procedures, then steer clear of the airport.