TSA mess and the police

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I don't take it out on TSA agents. I know some do, but I have repeatedly stated that my issue is with the policy itself, not with the agents or even with those who support the policy. I do, however, believe that only public outcry will overturn the Patriot Act. Some TSA agents have joined the fight as well. This will be, as it should, fought in the court of public opinion. As LuvOrlando rightly pointed out upthread, the public serves a critical function in the checks and balances of our system.

I guess I am just frustrated at the fighting of the symptoms rather than the disease. And, as you admit, although you haven't vilified the agents, a lot of people are doing just that, and it makes them look paranoid and petty, and to me, invalidates any argument that they make because they are not approaching it from reason, but from sensationalism.

I don't care if they want to take a space alien picture of my body--I think the machines just do what the x-ray glasses in the back of comic books when I was a kid promised to do. I don't care about the pat-downs. It doesn't bother me. I really don't care one way or another what the symptom of the problem is, only the problem itself. It doesn't make sense to me to fight the heads when the hydra is still alive. I see this whole thing as just cutting off a hydra head so two more can grow in its place.

Does that make sense? I am having a hard time explaining why I don't care but I do in another sense.
 
So people keep claiming. Actually, it is currently unknown whether flying is a constitutional right, because thus far it has not been tested by the Supreme Court.

Oh please, that type of 'argument' makes the conversation laughable LOL. I've heard a lot of things claimed to be someone's constitutional right, but the right to fly on a private airline has never been one of them. That aside, do you know for a fact that no one has ever brought that to court? I don't know either way. If so, I doubt they got far. I'd have to see the ACLU take it up and bring it to court, and win to believe anyone would take that serious.

Certainly that would be okay. That's been exactly the basis for thousands of test cases. Rosa Parks sat down in the front of the bus, and she's lauded as a hero (and rightly so). In order for precedent to be set, someone somewhere has to be the first case.
Are you saying that you know for a fact that no one has ever brought the issue of smoking in public to a court? No one stopped from smoking, has ever fought the issue? I don't know either way.
 
JLTraveling said:
So people keep claiming. Actually, it is currently unknown whether flying is a constitutional right, because thus far it has not been tested by the Supreme Court
What would be your argument that there is a Constitutional right to commercial airline passage? Or, for that matter, commercial travel of any sort? Or even private vehicle transport?
 
Certainly that would be okay. That's been exactly the basis for thousands of test cases. Rosa Parks sat down in the front of the bus, and she's lauded as a hero (and rightly so). In order for precedent to be set, someone somewhere has to be the first case.

IMO, apples and oranges to compare Rosa Parks and what she stood for, to being allowed to smoke in public, or even to being patted down. Now, if they were only patting down African Americans, or Caucasins, or just the Spanish, I would feel differently.
 

Oh please, that type of 'argument' makes the conversation laughable LOL. I've heard a lot of things claimed to be someone's constitutional right, but the right to fly on a private airline has never been one of them. That aside, do you know for a fact that no one has ever brought that to court? I don't know either way. If so, I doubt they got far. I'd have to see the ACLU take it up and bring it to court, and win to believe anyone would take that serious.

What would be your argument that there is a Constitutional right to commercial airline passage? Or, for that matter, commercial travel of any sort? Or even private vehicle transport?

Wow, it seems that some people are woefully ignorant of the freedoms set forth in the Constitution and upheld through Supreme Court precedence over the centuries.

The Privileges and Immunities Clause of the Constitution states that "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States." I'll give you that that's pretty vague, and it didn't take long for our forefathers to hash out what that meant in the court system.

1823, Corfield v. Coryell (6 Fed. Cas. 546, no. 3,230 C.C.E.D.Pa. 1823):
The issue was actually interstate commerce, i.e. whether New Jersey could enact a law forbidding non-residents from gathering clams and oysters. BUT, the ruling clearly upheld the notion that freedom of movement within the country is a Constitutional right. Justice Bushrod Washington delineated the rights granted by the Privileges and Immunities Clause including "The right of a citizen of one state to pass through, or to reside in any other state, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise."

1869, Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. (8 Wall) 168:
This was a Supreme Court case in which the actual issue was whether a corporation counted as a citizen for purposes of the Privileges and Immunities Clause. However, in the written opinion, Justice Field ruminated on the intent of that clause stating, in part, "it gives them [citizens] the right of free ingress into other States, and egress from them."

But perhaps the most landmark ruling was the following:

1920, United States v. Wheeler, 254 U.S. 281:
This Supreme Court case determined that the federal government does not have the right to prosecute kidnappers, because only the states have the right to punish someone's imposition on someone else's freedom of movement.

However, in drafting the majority opinion, Chief Justice Edward Douglas White made a clear statement affirming the right of Americans to travel unimpeded. "In all the States from the beginning down to the adoption of the Articles of Confederation the citizens thereof possessed the fundamental right, inherent in citizens of all free governments, peacefully to dwell within the limits of their respective States, to move at will from place to place therein, and to have free ingress thereto and egress therefrom, with a consequent authority in the States to forbid and punish violations of this fundamental right."

Now, there have been challenges regarding international travel, but as far as domestic travel is concerned (which is, of course, the topic of this debate), there have been exactly ZERO Supreme Court (or federal district court cases) that have stricken or limited the Constitutional right to freedom of travel.

So the fact remains that unless and until the Supreme Court deems it otherwise, we do IN FACT have a Constitutional right to travel by any means up to and including commercial air travel. Next argument?
 
What the blazes is a "child abuse clearance"??? Or are you asking if they've had a background check that includes their criminal/sex offender status?

Act 151, dept of welfare history of child abuse clearances. You typically have to get them when you work in a job or volunteer where you'll be around children. I have my clearances renewed every year and I've never once held a job where I'd have to see a naked scan of kids or touch them in any way, let alone feeling their private parts. When I taught adult ed, I even needed my clearances because I would have students from ages 16-18.

Just wondering if and why the TSA workers would be exempt from this. I assume they'll be up close and personal with kids under 18 every day.
 
IMO, apples and oranges to compare Rosa Parks and what she stood for, to being allowed to smoke in public, or even to being patted down. Now, if they were only patting down African Americans, or Caucasins, or just the Spanish, I would feel differently.

So it's okay to deny our Constitutional rights, as long as they deny everyone's Constitutional rights equally? Somehow I don't think that's the equality that Rosa Parks was going for.
 
So it's okay to deny our Constitutional rights, as long as they deny everyone's Constitutional rights equally? Somehow I don't think that's the equality that Rosa Parks was going for.

No one has a constitutional right to a particular seat on a bus. If the bus company had said that everyone - black and white - had to sit at the back, then no one's constitutional rights would have been violated.

No one has a constitutional right to fly, either.
 
So the fact remains that unless and until the Supreme Court deems it otherwise, we do IN FACT have a Constitutional right to travel by any means up to and including commercial air travel. Next argument?

A constitutional right to travel is very different from a constitutional right to travel by the conveyance of your choice.
 
A constitutional right to travel is very different from a constitutional right to travel by the conveyance of your choice.

Absolutely, 100%, legally untrue. The Constitution delineates basic rights. The onus is on the Supreme Court to delineate limitations to those rights. The right to travel by the conveyance of your choice has NEVER been limited by Supreme Court ruling, thus it is legally presumed to be so. Perhaps reading up on the implementation of Constitutional freedoms would be in order?
 
Act 151, dept of welfare history of child abuse clearances. You typically have to get them when you work in a job or volunteer where you'll be around children. I have my clearances renewed every year and I've never once held a job where I'd have to see a naked scan of kids or touch them in any way, let alone feeling their private parts. When I taught adult ed, I even needed my clearances because I would have students from ages 16-18.

Just wondering if and why the TSA workers would be exempt from this. I assume they'll be up close and personal with kids under 18 every day.


If they're touching children, they should not be exempt from this.
 
Absolutely, 100%, legally untrue. The Constitution delineates basic rights. The onus is on the Supreme Court to delineate limitations to those rights. The right to travel by the conveyance of your choice has NEVER been limited by Supreme Court ruling, thus it is legally presumed to be so. Perhaps reading up on the implementation of Constitutional freedoms would be in order?


I agree. The constitutional aspect of this is what's bothering me so much. (Besides the touching my daughter part).
 
JLTraveling said:
Now, there have been challenges regarding international travel, but as far as domestic travel is concerned (which is, of course, the topic of this debate), there have been exactly ZERO Supreme Court (or federal district court cases) that have stricken or limited the Constitutional right to freedom of travel.

So the fact remains that unless and until the Supreme Court deems it otherwise, we do IN FACT have a Constitutional right to travel by any means up to and including commercial air travel. Next argument?
Actually, my post that you quoted was actual questions, not challenges. But my next question is - where in all of what you cited is there any reference to any right to a specific method or mode of travel?
 
Actually, my post that you quoted was actual questions, not challenges. But my next question is - where in all of what you cited is there any reference to any right to a specific method or mode of travel?

As I explained upthread, that's not how Constitutional freedoms work. The rights granted by the Constitution were intentionally written very broadly. They CANNOT be arbitrarily limited by any institution or legal body (at the city, county, state or federal level) without the assent of the Supreme Court. That's part of the very fundamental system of checks and balances that was created at the founding of our nation. It's not the job of the Constitution to delineate specific situations to which any freedom applies. It's the job of the Supreme Court to determine whether any limitation is warranted or, more accurately, to apply any limitation that it deems worthy. Not the job of the TSA, any other branch of the federal government, or any lower level court system.
 
Are we giving our names and address when they take the scan? Boy, that would slow up the line for sure.
I thought these were being viewed at an off site place..so no one would even know whose scans they were looking at, would they?I've got a couple of flights planned, and will do whatever the procedure is when we fly..beats having to drive (which will be hard over the ocean LOL).

You nailed it! There is this building in Mumbai . . . :rotfl:
 
I don't know the whole story, but from what I've read I applaud Sam Wolanyk's civil disobedience. This is also what I learned and admired about Americans - the strength to stand up for their rights. It was why I used to be a liberal - I loved learning about the civil rights movement. As a conservative, civil rights are still just as important to me.

Google Sam . . . then decide.

That said, his stunt was a good one. The concept that he had to put his clothes on in order to have is privates searched is a hoot.
 
But what these people are filming is simply what is going on at any security checkpoint hundreds (if not thousands) of times a day. So can't a potential terrorist just do a dry run a few times and then remember how the pat downs go and then find a way around them? They don't need video to figure out how the pat downs are performed, they can have actual personal experience. So I don't see they "for the sake of security" argument, if that's what the TSA is going to use.

I do see it as a way to keep bad publicity at bay. We've already seen pat downs/security checks "gone bad" online. So I think they are trying to stop that because as much as they would like to tell all their employees to follow the rules, be polite, etc., you can't guarantee that and at some point the TSA personnel are going to get frustrated with a difficult person or a TSA agent will act inappropriately and it will be caught resulting in further anger by the general public.

I wish there were a smilie for hitting a naill on the head. You got it.

I have noticed that TSA sometimes manages to respond to criticism by releasing videos that vindicate the TSAer's actions. But they NEVER release a video that shows the reported improper conduct with any type of acknowledgement of a TSA error.
 
As I explained upthread, that's not how Constitutional freedoms work. The rights granted by the Constitution were intentionally written very broadly. They CANNOT be arbitrarily limited by any institution or legal body (at the city, county, state or federal level) without the assent of the Supreme Court. That's part of the very fundamental system of checks and balances that was created at the founding of our nation. It's not the job of the Constitution to delineate specific situations to which any freedom applies. It's the job of the Supreme Court to determine whether any limitation is warranted or, more accurately, to apply any limitation that it deems worthy. Not the job of the TSA, any other branch of the federal government, or any lower level court system.

I wrote out a lengthy reply only to lose it because the site logged me out.

Simply stated, the Constitution has a single purpose - the limit the powers of the Federal government. It does not grant rights to anyone. It does, in a few places, clarify them.

Your right to travel freely can be extrapolated from general freedom, but conveyances are not granted to anyone. To do so would infringe upon the rights of others. Also, there are many situations in which the government is allowed to regulate travel, especially where said travel industry is involved in interstate commerce.

The TSA is such a regulatory body. Its powers were granted by Congress. You are free to travel, but you do not have a right to any conveyance - perhaps not even one owned by you. Consider state driver's laws. Ignore them and see how quickly you lose your driving privileges. You will still be free to travel, but you will need to get someone else to drive you. Then again, you can always choose to walk. ;)
 
We have never been able to take pictures in either the customs area of an airport terminal, or a cruise terminal. We also can't take photos at many shows we go to, including Disney (although people do, even though it's been prohibited, and sometimes they have to give up their cameras until the end of the show). Being in public doesn't mean we have the right to do whatever we want to do. While it may be legal (or I should say allowed, since the airport or TSA may choose to make that off limits) right now to take photo's in the security area of an airport, that may soon become a place where we can't.

Courts have determined that it is legal to photograph and record in public places and specifically airports.
 
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