Transgenders and bathrooms....

[kamik86]

So, in other words, transgenders NOT having the right to use the restroom of the gender they identify with has NOT stopped any of what you described? But some how the assumption is that it will make it worse? How so?

Someone on FB this morning talked about their 2nd grader having a transgender child (female to male) in her class and that if the child is given the right to use the male restroom her dd will not even be able to go pee at school because she will be too afraid. Whaaaaa??? I couldn't figure out the connection of a child using the boy's restroom to her daughter being afraid of going to the girl's restroom. Made no sense but then neither do most of the arguments about this.

The only reason a second grader would care is if they are taught to care. My experience with most 7 year old is if they have to go they aren't afraid to drop their pants wherever and go.

 

[kamik86]

It works in our school district. There are several elementary school children in the transgender community in our district, thus the bathrooms are all gender friendly.

I don't think you give young children enough credit. These young children will stand up for the rights of their transgendered friends. I remember one day volunteering in the kindergarten. A sub did attendance and read off the names. While the legal records had been changed, for some reason she had an old class list with the old name on it. She referred to the child as the wrong gender. The entire class corrected the teacher, acting surprised that anyone would think their friend any different than they knew them.

If we start the learning early, hopefully the hate will be erased or at least tempered. We want those underdeveloped minds to develop accepting their classmates.

In the post you quoted they were talking high school students getting it on in the bathroom if genders were allowed to mix in them.

What I remember of high school tells me at least for the school I went to
1) Students that want to get it on will find places
2) Most of those places aren't bathrooms, because there are better less icky places
3) the bathrooms are used for other not allowed things... like smoking
4) Schools really suck at policing what happens in anywhere that isn't a classroom and that is much much more of an issue then who is in the bathrooms.

 

[SirDuff]

So, in other words, transgenders NOT having the right to use the restroom of the gender they identify with has NOT stopped any of what you described? But some how the assumption is that it will make it worse? How so?

Someone on FB this morning talked about their 2nd grader having a transgender child (female to male) in her class and that if the child is given the right to use the male restroom her dd will not even be able to go pee at school because she will be too afraid. Whaaaaa??? I couldn't figure out the connection of a child using the boy's restroom to her daughter being afraid of going to the girl's restroom. Made no sense but then neither do most of the arguments about this.

Shouldn't she feel *safer*? Since the "scary" transgender child is no longer in the same restroom as her?

 

[luvsJack]

It is not about anything you mentioned. It is about a young, undeveloped mind. You can not just open the doors and say make a decision. The President can not just write a letter and dictate an open door policy in a school full of teenagers and expect them to behave responsibly. A methodical, careful education process must be planned and implemented.

You said that you have walked in on students in the bathroom doing improper things and implied that this will make it worse. So how is that not about anything I mentioned? (the second part of my post wasn't about your comment) The President can't do anything to expect high schoolers to behave correctly. That is not his job. Its the job of the school to make sure of that.

 

[luvsJack]

Shouldn't she feel *safer*? Since the "scary" transgender child is no longer in the same restroom as her?

That's what I was thinking! I just keep seeing that picture of the Joker and him saying "Everyone has lost their minds"! They truly have.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Are you, maybe, talking about different laws? Clearly, the law (in NC) stating that you have to use the bathroom that matches the sex you were born with is not about protecting transgender people. However, laws that state that establishments must allow people to use the bathroom of their gender (I saw on the elevator TV (so have to look up details) that public schools are going to be told this today) are (could be?) about protecting transgender people.

Yes, I think this got confused! I was talking about laws stating that transgender men and women can use the bathroom of the the gender they identify with. NOT laws saying they have to use ones that match the gender on their birth certificate. Those are CLEARLY meant to cause harm and distress to transgender people.

 

[Laz]

You said that you have walked in on students in the bathroom doing improper things and implied that this will make it worse. So how is that not about anything I mentioned? (the second part of my post wasn't about your comment) The President can't do anything to expect high schoolers to behave correctly. That is not his job. Its the job of the school to make sure of that.

Now you are throwing all on the backs of the school system and telling them to correct the situation. You are talking about possibly thousands of students coming together from all different social economic backgrounds and upbringings. This does not happen overnight without help from the rest of the community at large.

 

[Laz]

It works in our school district. There are several elementary school children in the transgender community in our district, thus the bathrooms are all gender friendly.

I don't think you give young children enough credit. These young children will stand up for the rights of their transgendered friends. I remember one day volunteering in the kindergarten. A sub did attendance and read off the names. While the legal records had been changed, for some reason she had an old class list with the old name on it. She referred to the child as the wrong gender. The entire class corrected the teacher, acting surprised that anyone would think their friend any different than they knew them.

If we start the learning early, hopefully the hate will be erased or at least tempered. We want those underdeveloped minds to develop accepting their classmates.

You are correct in that I do not give high school students any credit. Elementary is a totally different situation. Having said that, by working with the elementary age, it will definitely help when transitioning to the secondary level. I am more concerned with the secondary level and the short term impact. This is what I mean by a methodical, well thought out process.

Please understand I am not talking about denying rights. I am talking about high school students being asked to make changes that they may not be able to do quickly, or with good understanding.

 

[kamik86]

Now you are throwing all on the backs of the school system and telling them to correct the situation. You are talking about possibly thousands of students coming together from all different social economic backgrounds and upbringings. This does not happen overnight without help from the rest of the community at large.

Honestly I think school systems for years have and continue to need to do much more to keep order in their schools without punishing those that did no wrong.

The punishment in my school when kids were smoking in the bathrooms were to lock all but one set and then do nothing to police that one. So now the smoke in the one was worse and it was impossible to use the bathrooms between classes as there just wasn't enough.

Honestly of the types of behavior I'm worried about in high school bathrooms this law wouldn't make it worse. Yes students would do things they shouldn't in the bathroom, however I think most of those things would not be attacking other students.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I am talking about the law in NC that prohibits transgender people from using the bathroom with which they identify....you have to use the bathroom that matches the "parts" you have. That is in no way meant to protect transgender people.

Wait... somebody uses that as a reason?!?

 

[luvsJack]

Now you are throwing all on the backs of the school system and telling them to correct the situation. You are talking about possibly thousands of students coming together from all different social economic backgrounds and upbringings. This does not happen overnight without help from the rest of the community at large.

Well, yeah. . . Its up to the school to make sure kids aren't having sex in the bathroom (which is what you described). The community at large cannot do anything about that, they aren't allowed in the school to monitor the students. How do they keep them from doing other inappropriate things?

Why do you not give high school students any credit?

 

[wvjules]

Wait... somebody uses that as a reason?!?

Unless I read this wrong....

Transgenders and bathrooms....

 

[SirDuff]

Unless I read this wrong....

Transgenders and bathrooms....

Yes, you did read it wrong. See that poster's later clarification. As I thought, you were two were not talking about the same laws.

Yes, I think this got confused! I was talking about laws stating that transgender men and women can use the bathroom of the the gender they identify with. NOT laws saying they have to use ones that match the gender on their birth certificate. Those are CLEARLY meant to cause harm and distress to transgender people.

 

[wvjules]

Ok. Thanks. I was wrong. Sorry Teresa.

 

[mnrose]

It's been mentioned previously, but the part of the NC law that deals with bathrooms is really just a smokescreen. That part is or actually unenforceable and from I've read doesn't even set penalties.

What the law is really about is preempting local laws that provide civil rights protections based on LBGT status. The special session was held before Charlotte's local ordinance would go into effect. What's rather galling is that the text specifically couches its justification as providing uniform civil rights protections. It also makes it impossible to sue for civil rights violations in court.

http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v4.pdf

It's even broader than that. It forbids local municipalities from making ANY laws about employment, including (for example) deciding that the minimum wage should be higher in that city or deciding that additional worker protections might be warranted. These are ALL pre-empted by the legislation which was "presumably" just about bathrooms (which were not even a problem!). Hmmmm. Personally, I smell a giant rat. Again, take a look at which (very small) group of people (couple of brothers anyone?) is funding and promoting these bills and you get an idea of the real agenda.

 

[bcla]

It's even broader than that. It forbids local municipalities from making ANY laws about employment, including (for example) deciding that the minimum wage should be higher in that city or deciding that additional worker protections might be warranted. These are ALL pre-empted by the legislation which was "presumably" just about bathrooms (which were not even a problem!). Hmmmm. Personally, I smell a giant rat. Again, take a look at which (very small) group of people (couple of brothers anyone?) is funding and promoting these bills and you get an idea of the real agenda.

Well yeah. It's definitely a big, unwieldy mess of generally unrelated issues. How this all ended up in a single bill passed in a special session sort of boggles the mind.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I don't understand why high schoolers having sex in the bathrooms has anything to do with anything. It just sounds like another made up excuse to discriminate.
I remember back in high school, the back stacks in the library was the place for blowies...at least that's what I heard.
That type of stuff is going to go on regardless of if a transgender kid is allowed in the bathroom.

 

[DizBelle]

I am talking about the law in NC that prohibits transgender people from using the bathroom with which they identify....you have to use the bathroom that matches the "parts" you have. That is in no way meant to protect transgender people.

Here's a thought....

Everyone is saying that there are laws already in place to protect people (women) in the bathroom (or I guess anywhere) from voyeurism, assault, naughty behavior (that is illegal) so it shouldn't matter if transgender women are allowed in the women's room.

Wouldn't those same laws protect anyone in any bathroom including transgender women who go in the men's room because it says "male" on their birth certificate?

So everyone should just be able to go into whatever bathroom they want regardless of the sign on the door. Me? I'd be going in the one with the shorter line.

The point here is that laws don't protect you. People who do bad things to other people don't care about laws.

 

[bcla]

Here's a thought....

Everyone is saying that there are laws already in place to protect people (women) in the bathroom (or I guess anywhere) from voyeurism, assault, naughty behavior (that is illegal) so it shouldn't matter if transgender women are allowed in the women's room.

Wouldn't those same laws protect anyone in any bathroom including transgender women who go in the men's room because it says "male" on their birth certificate?

So everyone should just be able to go into whatever bathroom they want regardless of the sign on the door. Me? I'd be going in the one with the shorter line.

The point here is that laws don't protect you. People who do bad things to other people don't care about laws.

Again, if you look at the actual law, the part about bathroom use has no enforcement or penalty provisions. If anything, that's just the writers of the bill expressing their view of what they think should be the norm.

The part of the bill that actually has teeth is the barring of municipalities from having a higher minimum wage, a bar on using state courts for civil rights lawsuits, and a bar on municipalities having stronger civil rights protections than state law. As it stands, this law nullifies Charlotte's city ordinance outlawing employer or public accommodations discrimination on the basis of LGBT status.

It was rather stealthy that the concentration in the media has been about bathrooms.

 

[PollyannaMom]

There is no arguement here, other than the folks who preach tolerance don't tolerate other opinions.

But, as someone else said, opinions are different than actions. I know several older folks who grew up when people were separated based on the color of their skin. I suspect they still have hard-to-overcome opinions based on what they were taught as children, but they bend over backwards now not to treat anyone differently. I'm tolerant of their feelings, because they are doing their best to act in a way that's nice to everyone.

The same goes for this new situation. It's OK for people to be uncomfortable with something they're not familiar with! It's OK to have opinions about how they wish things were. But it's not OK to treat one group of people differently because of not understanding them. So yes, we should "tolerate" opinions other than our own, but we should also "expect" people to treat everyone the same in spite of those private opinions.