Training Discussion Question

[windwalker]

I have a friend who is in a marathon training group in Cincinnati. They have a coach that plans each days runs. He has them training for the Columbus marathon. Cincinnati is a very hilly city, as Flying Pig vets well know.

He has them for the last month training just on the flat areas with no hills. His theory being that since Columbus is a flat course you want to train your body to go long on a flat course and not train on the hills for the last month prior.

I personally disagree with this, I think you should do all your training, except for speed intervals on a varied terrain so you build all your muscle groups equally. Therefore I train on a course every day that has a lot of rolling terrain as well as varied surfaces.

Hal Higdon and the gang didn't die and leave me in charge so I'm not an expert on any of it. Just my opinion. To me this is like a boxer just training his arms for a fight and not doing the core and leg work along with it.

Anyone else want to give an opinion? Discussion encouraged.

Dave

 

[jam217]

Windwalker, I absolutely agree with you that runners and walkers need a variety of terrains to build strength. I started running with a group in July and we do our hill workouts on Sundays. Up until that time, I did some hill work but not very consistently and the hills weren't as intense as the Sunday ones. Since I joined the running group, my overall times have improved, I've felt stronger and I really believe it's all due to the hills.

Last weekend, I did the Philly Distance Run, a half marathon that had all flat terrain. For the first time I was able to run the entire distance without stopping and I attribute my leg strength and overall stamina to my hill workouts. Trust me, my body had no trouble "adapting'' to the flat terrain.

 

[jeanneg]

I'm no pro either, but I agree with Dave and the previous poster. I do all my distance training in a very hilly neighborhood. It's hard work and my pace isn't as fast as I would like, but my feeling is that when the marathon comes along, a mostly flat course should feel like a stroll around the park.
Never having done any of the WDW events, would someone care to comment on exactly how flat or hilly it is?

 

[windwalker]

I'm no pro either, but I agree with Dave and the previous poster. I do all my distance training in a very hilly neighborhood. It's hard work and my pace isn't as fast as I would like, but my feeling is that when the marathon comes along, a mostly flat course should feel like a stroll around the park.
Never having done any of the WDW events, would someone care to comment on exactly how flat or hilly it is?

Tne only hills are the highway overpasses and the highway ramps. Along about 20 miles they start looking pretty steep.

DAve

 

[gatorphipps]

OK! I am going to be the one who causes waves....B/C I can see it both ways.

I agree that we should build all the muscles and train on lots of different kinds of varied terrain. But, I also understand what the coach is doing.

If you run a "flat" marathon, you also need to prepare your body to run on flat surfaces for a long time. Myrtle Beach Marathon is my example. It is flat. All my friends who have run it say that they wish they had trained their bodies to stay flat for so long. Now, in Charlotte I am not sure where you would do this.

At the same time, I think me training in Charlotte with hills, helped me maintain my speed in WDW this year...even though it was HOT! WDW is FLAT compared to where I train (even with the ramps) so even though the heat was aweful, my body was used to a harder course. So I was able to still run at a normal speed.

I think the coach is trying to get them to run on the same kind of terrain that they will be running on in the marathon. I think that is wise. And it is only the last month of training...that should be the last LR and then the taper.

That is just my $.02

 

[wdw4us]

my friend Karen is doing the 1/2 with us and she is also doing a 1/2 here in town in November. She is in a training group here in town and there is a few section of the route that is hilly and they train on them weekly. It's your choice to do them or to avoid them - their training routes give you different options to pick from and distances as some are more fit to do longer runs. She commented just yesterday how hard those hills are but I have every confidence that she'll be just fine when she has to go up them come November.

denise

 

[Optimator]

I'd have to chime in and say that the hill work would be a benefit no matter what kind of course you're going to run.

Like anything, balance is the key. I guess in theory you could have trouble if all you did was run uphill (besides the fact of never being able to get back home ). Hills in combination with flatter terrain as part of your normal routine will prepare you for either.

I know Christa hangs with a fast crowd but I've NEVER heard anyone say a course was too flat.

 

[getnthinr]

I agree that we should build all the muscles and train on lots of different kinds of varied terrain. But, I also understand what the coach is doing.

If you run a "flat" marathon, you also need to prepare your body to run on flat surfaces for a long time. Myrtle Beach Marathon is my example. It is flat. All my friends who have run it say that they wish they had trained their bodies to stay flat for so long. Now, in Charlotte I am not sure where you would do this.

At the same time, I think me training in Charlotte with hills, helped me maintain my speed in WDW this year...even though it was HOT! WDW is FLAT compared to where I train (even with the ramps) so even though the heat was aweful, my body was used to a harder course. So I was able to still run at a normal speed.

I think the coach is trying to get them to run on the same kind of terrain that they will be running on in the marathon. I think that is wise. And it is only the last month of training...that should be the last LR and then the taper.

That is just my $.02

What she said!

Kiawah always surprises me every year. It is absolutely flat. While typically I do it faster if I have done my hill work, I am always surprised at how difficult it can be to pound, pound, pound away with the same muscles in the same way for 6.5 hours or so. I'd give the one month flatwork a try if I'd already done my speed and hill work during the previous months.

But, it's just my opinion. Certainly I would not advocate training only on the flat (the entire time) for any marathon.

 

[cewait]

I have a friend who is in a marathon training group in Cincinnati. They have a coach that plans each days runs. He has them training for the Columbus marathon. Cincinnati is a very hilly city, as Flying Pig vets well know.

He has them for the last month training just on the flat areas with no hills. His theory being that since Columbus is a flat course you want to train your body to go long on a flat course and not train on the hills for the last month prior.

I personally disagree with this, I think you should do all your training, except for speed intervals on a varied terrain so you build all your muscle groups equally. Therefore I train on a course every day that has a lot of rolling terrain as well as varied surfaces.

Hal Higdon and the gang didn't die and leave me in charge so I'm not an expert on any of it. Just my opinion. To me this is like a boxer just training his arms for a fight and not doing the core and leg work along with it.

Anyone else want to give an opinion? Discussion encouraged.

Dave

Wow Dave, Mr Hills here....

I am going to disagree with you on this. As presented the coach is moving to flat terrain for the last long run and then the taper. I am assuming that the 12-16 weeks prior they were in fact running some hills or rolling terrain and speed work. I would say that if your goal race is pancake flat you need to make your last long training run/walk flat also. You must force the legs to experience the constant muscle use that they will see in the race.

I train here in Houston on a course that is rolling. I agree that the ups and owns build strength and allow for variety during the workout. I always run my last run in the subdivision where the elveation change is less than 3 feet. I guarentee you that the coach's students will feel the stress of no hills much more than they realize. The hip flexors may well cramp on the last long run. Much better to feel that for the first time in training than during your race.

 

[windwalker]

Charles I'm glad you joined us over here on the WISH. Your inputs are always great. Good point about the possible cramping from using the same muscles over an extended period.

Dave

 

[scoolover]

I think that for elite runners who may want to place in the race or qualify for a trials bid, doing the specific flat stuff would be a benefit. For the 99.5% of us who want to finish healthy, a well rounded approach is in order.

 

[Creativebeth]

To tell the truth, I don't LIKE hills but I would rather go up than down! I am way faster up the hill, but I hurt like heck coming down. I ran with my sister's running group on a very hilly course and I found that I would pass people going up, but they would pass me going down!

I try to do hill work once a week, even though my marathon was very flat. Hill work keeps me strong through the whole race. I am glad though that my long runs were on the rail trail (which is flat) to get the feel for what it's like to run so long on a flat surface.

Beth

 

[Cruella de mom]

I know this debate came up when we we training for Disney and Phoenix last year. Both are flat races but our normal training routes are very hilly. We finally compromised and made our long runs somewhat flatter than usual.

I find it very difficult to run on a flat course for any length of time. I ran a half marathon on a flat course after training on hills and though I did well, it hurt! I don't think I would do ALL my miles on flat courses, but I plan to run at least 2 or 3 long runs on a relatively flat course before WDW.

Isn't moderation the answer to everything?

Cecilia

 

[jeanneg]

To tell the truth, I don't LIKE hills but I would rather go up than down! I am way faster up the hill, but I hurt like heck coming down. I ran with my sister's running group on a very hilly course and I found that I would pass people going up, but they would pass me going down!

I try to do hill work once a week, even though my marathon was very flat. Hill work keeps me strong through the whole race. I am glad though that my long runs were on the rail trail (which is flat) to get the feel for what it's like to run so long on a flat surface.

Beth

I agree totally. In fact I sometimes run (rather than walk) my hills to get them over with quickly. Going downhill is tough on my knees and sometimes even my ankles so I usually slow down considerably. My house is at the bottom of a hill, so that last quarter mile is a killer for me.

BTW, Beth.....Great job on finishing the marathon! You rock!