Toddler on bus

[firesongmd]

We will be taking our almost 2 year old son on ME this fall. Can a car seat be installed on the bus? I am not sure how comfortable I am with him in a bus with no car seat installed. Would it be better/ quicker just to take a taxi? Any experiences/ thoughts appreciated.

 

[TMB1203]

Nope, no car seats are allowed on the bus.
I was nervous with our little one the first time, but it was fine.

 

[ducklite]

No car seats can be used on the DME bus as there are no seatbelts.

How do you expect to get around WDW to the various parks? That transportation is largely by bus as well.

Anne

 

[Hannathy]

No car seats but statistically he is safer on the bus than in the taxi......

 

[Edd]

At least in a taxi or car service, he will be in a car seat and probably a whole lot safer, statistically, in the car seat than on his Mom's lap in a bus, should the bus accidently crash.

 

[Geoff_M]

Edd, actually the bus would be safer. There's a reason that both school and commercial buses don't have seatbelts. As for the squashing danger of riding in Mom's lap, Jr. can have his own seat on the bus.

 

[salmoneous]

No, I think Edd is 100% correct here. The kid is much safer in a cab or limo than in the bus IF THE BUS SHOULD CRASH. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the bus is overall safer than the car. But in those scenarios where the bush crashes, the cars are safer.

Come on Edd, this car-seat bus-bashing is getting old. There are many good reasons for folks to use car services over busses. One of which is that some parents feel safer with their kid in a car seat - even if statistics don't bear that out. Just promote your car service for what it is...

 

[Geoff_M]

If you look at a normalized statistic like "deaths per passenger mile", transit buses win in a landslide:

Public transit "is over eighty times safer than riding in an automobile - The death rate for automobiles is .85 deaths per 100 million miles, while for transit it is .01." Link

The main advantage is the size of the bus vs. a passenger car or limo and the fact that the passengers are usually not seated in the "impact" zones of the collision and are instead rised up away from the impacts.

Even for smaller school buses the comparison holds true:

"Yet the most recent statistics put the average of school bus deaths per 100,000 miles at 0.01 compared to 0.94 for passenger cars." Link

 

[CleveRocks]

We will be taking our almost 2 year old son on ME this fall. Can a car seat be installed on the bus? I am not sure how comfortable I am with him in a bus with no car seat installed. Would it be better/ quicker just to take a taxi? Any experiences/ thoughts appreciated.

The major point for you to realize is that if you are uncomfortable with your 2 year old on a bus without a car seat, then your only option is to rent a car at the airport. Disney Transport buses, the buses that take you between the resorts and the parks, also do not have seat belts (and thus car seats aren't permitted because they can't be secured).

Of course, if you are staying in a monorail resort and will go ONLY to MK and Epcot, then you won't need to take any buses. Since that's unlikely, plan on either renting a car and using your car seat, or getting used to the idea of riding buses with your 2 year old.

Another option would be hiring taxis or a car service to drive you everywhere, but of course that would be incredibly expensive.

Just for some personal info, my wife and I have no problem taking our kids on buses. Our first time with them at WDW, they were 2.5 and 5. We take safety VERY seriously, as in each of our jobs we see the devastating effects of motor vehicle accidents every day. And again, given what we know, we are completely confident taking our kids on buses not equipped with seatbelts, whether it be in WDW or in Manhattan or on school field trips.

We also have lots of experience being around buses, as Atlantic City has many more motorcoaches going in and out and around town than WDW has. Buses are a way of life around here.

 

[Edd]

First off, school boards are now putting seat belts in busses, seminole county, Florida. The story was broke before the 4 girls were killed in Alabama in the school bus accident. The reason school and commercial busses don't have seat belts is a money factor, nothing more.

People who look at statistics are virtually blinding themselves from reality. Any vehicle accident maims and kills. The reason for seat belts was to reduce the chances of injury and death. It has done that job tremendously and that is why seat belts are promoted by all health organizations and for that matter any organization that is dedicated to saving lives.

Rollover or crash a bus and do the same to a regular vehicle. In a bus with passengers, without seatbelts including a few youngsters, I am certain you would find those passengers hurt much more than you would find the passengers, riding in a regular car, strapped in seat belts, hurt. That would be reality to me. The have been several incidents of bus accidents posted on the boards and the injury picture wasn't good. Don't get me wrong but I would rather be in an accident wearing a seat belt than in a bus accident where I can't wear a seat belt.

I have actually been in an accident that totaled the car, pushed the engine toward the back and crushed the rear end in.. It did not roll. I was in a seat belt and escaped with bruises on the portions of my body that made contact with the seatbelt restraining me. I walked away with nothing but black and blue marks because I wore a seat belt.

Disney and Mears are absolutely crazy in transferring so many without seat belts. There have been at least 4 accidents involving Mears shuttle vans in the 10 years I have noted. In every one of them people were killed. I remember one about 4 years ago where there were 2 kids killed. The Mears vans do not have seat belts. There have also been accidents involving the ME busses. The problem is that information is not available to the public about the accidents. Don't think I didn't try to get some. It is virtually impossible to find out. I even asked friends I still know who work at Mears and they wouldn't say anything.

 

[CleveRocks]

People who look at statistics are virtually blinding themselves from reality.

I could not disagree more with this statement.

If the statistics are reliable (measuring what they say they measure) and valid (correctly and honestly collected), then they ARE the truth. I'm not talking about statistical sampling models like a public opinion poll, I'm talking about an actual hard count.

Reliable and valid statistics that are a result of a hard count (not sampling) ARE the truth, for Pete's sake.

Refusing to see something (such as the truth) is the very definition of "blinding one's self from reality" where I come from.

And one of the places I come from is a Master's degree in statistics and experimental design from Villanova University. If civil courts in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Ohio can call me an expert (as in expert witness) then I suppose the DISboards can, as well.

There have been at least 4 accidents involving Mears shuttle vans in the 10 years I have noted. In every one of them people were killed. I remember one about 4 years ago where there were 2 kids killed. The Mears vans do not have seat belts.

Once again, you muddy the waters of a "bus" discussion by bringing up passenger vans. Comparing a passenger van to a motorcoach is like comparing a cocker spaniel puppy to a full-grown Rottweiler. They're both dogs, but one is much more likely to hurt you under the wrong circumstances.

I would never let a loved one, friend, or acquaintance get into a passenger van without wearing a seatbelt.

 

[disneymomof6]

Mears shuttle vans do have seatbelts and in fact when I used them last I requested a car seat since I hadnt brought one down during our flight and they happily accomodated and provided it.

 

[Edd]

Variables in statistics can be sampled that suggest favoritism towards one or another argument. Statistics in this case do not prove the validity of any one persons argument because they are skewed.

Have you statistically researched the vehicular deaths when a seat belt is or is not involved? That is a huge question in today's world.

Are you still working in your degreed field?

 

[addicted_to_WDW]

Rent a car Edd, you'll feel better.

I, however, will continue to take my chances on the dangerous WDW buses.

 

[CleveRocks]

Variables in statistics can be sampled that suggest favoritism towards one or another argument. Statistics in this case do not prove the validity of any one persons argument because they are skewed.

Have you statistically researched the vehicular deaths when a seat belt is or is not involved? That is a huge question in today's world.

Are you still working in your degreed field?

I agree that "samples" can very easily be skewed towards one argument or another. That's why I carefully stated that I was not referring to sampling, but was specifically referring to a hard count. An example of sampling is an exit poll on Election Night, which we know can be wildly inaccurate for a variety of reasons. An example of a hard count is the actual election results, exact knowable numbers. Votes are statistics. A hard count of votes can't be skewed -- the numbers speak for themselves. Ignoring votes would not only be blind, but would ignore the Constitution of the United States.

Since you asked, Edd .... I've earned several degrees in related and complementary fields (the one I mentioned above, plus counseling psychology and psychobiology). As a working therapist, I often need to use all knowledge gleaned from all sources in order to understand people and relate to them in their own language. Just today, for example, I called upon my knowledge of horse racing (the result of a mis-spent youth) to help understand one client's profession and professional difficulties and frustrations, and I also called upon my knowledge of psychopharmacology to discuss a client's meds with her physician. The sideline of expert witnessing has taken a temporary backseat to childcare issues -- my kids need me more than I need the extra money.

Sorry to bore the room, I just wanted to respond to the questions posed ....

 

[Edd]

Thank you, Cleve,

You didn't answer my very last question. Have you statistically researched the vehicular deaths when a seat belt is or is not involved. Both should be "hard count" and not easily skewed.

 

[CleveRocks]

A few months back, in response to one of these silly back-and-forth threads I poked around the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration's website to see for myself. It's full of zillions (sorry, I had to throw in some professional language ) of links to hard count data, too much to casually sift through on most nights poking around the 'Net.

Statistically speaking, roughly 50% of the traumatic brain injuries in the USA each year are caused by motor vehicle accidents. Therefore, my work requires me to be up on all things MVA. I trust the statistics reported in various scientific journals in my field. PM me if you want some specific journal titles -- I don't think the rest of the kids appreciate the arcana of all of this, but I'll be happy to talk with you privately.

 

[Geoff_M]

People who look at statistics are virtually blinding themselves from reality.

Certainly statistics can be mis-used. So if you can point out the error in using "deaths per passenger mile" as a relative measurement of safety between various modes of transportation, then I'm certainly willing to listen.

First off, school boards are now putting seat belts in busses, seminole county, Florida. The story was broke before the 4 girls were killed in Alabama in the school bus accident. The reason school and commercial busses don't have seat belts is a money factor, nothing more.

No, until there's actual hard evidence that putting seat belts in full-sized buses actually provides an increase in safety, there's no reason to require them. For every scenario that you put forward where a seat belt in a bus might save a life, I can counter with a scenario where they might decrease safety. For example, suppose a bus has one of those roll-overs that you cite and the bus catches fire or lands in water. In this case it's quite likely that a number of passenger would be unable to release themselves from their seat belts to escape due the their body weight straining against the buckle. In this case any rescuer would only have a couple of minutes tops to try and go through the bus and free people from the belts before they drowned or were burned. And as for many of the school districts that are now putting them in the buses, often times it's not the full size buses they are installing them in, it's the smaller mini-bus "super vans" where it makes a lot more sense from a safety standpoint.

In a bus with passengers, without seatbelts including a few youngsters, I am certain you would find those passengers hurt much more than you would find the passengers, riding in a regular car, strapped in seat belts, hurt.

Quite frankly, if I have the choice of being in a car wearing a seat belt that slams into a Mears bus, or in the Mears bus without a seat belt in the same collision... I'll take the bus any day.

 

[CleveRocks]

Thank you, Cleve,

You didn't answer my very last question. Have you statistically researched the vehicular deaths when a seat belt is or is not involved. Both should be "hard count" and not easily skewed.

Sorry, I missed part of the intent of your question. On the NHTSA website, I don't recall there being any statistics gathered/reported on injuries and fatalities on buses as sorted by whether the bus passengers were wearing seat belts or not. I will go out on a limb and assume that no such data exist, at least on a national level, because police departments aren't collecting and collating such data. Let me give you a different example. There's no hard count of strep throat infections -- even though it's noted in patients' individual medical records, no system exists to track it. But there is a hard count of diseases like polio and some venereal diseases -- there are mandatory reporting procedures, so the CDCD can produce a hard count.

Of course seat belts save lives in cars and similar-sized vehicles. But that is not the question at hand.

 

[CleveRocks]

Quite frankly, if I have the choice of being in a car wearing a seat belt that slams into a Mears bus, or in the Mears bus without a seat belt in the same collision... I'll take the bus any day.

I'll bring my wife and kids and sit next to you on that bus.

I was in a school bus accident when I was in 9th grade. A car was mushed up (car was merging onto the highway, and it hit the bus around the right front wheel or so) and the occupants were removed from the area by ambulances -- I have no idea how serious their injuries were, but I didn't see them leave the car under their own power. On the bus, I swear that we didn't even know that we were even in an accident in the first place. We just felt the bus decelerate pretty quickly. Bus full of kids, no medical attention required.

Physics is a wonderful thing. "Big" wins.