Tink Weekend Issues and Changes (LONG!)

[Chasing Dopey]

Re: park tickets... The DL races end about when most races in the area start. That's asking a lot. So, it doesn't change anything for me. If the 501st got tickets for SW, I say good for them, and it was pretty awesome for me, too. Win-win.

Re: surveys... I know Disney World (at least) is definitely high on their surveys, as I get stopped 2 or 3 times minimum per trip. I would HOPE they understand that while these metrics are nice to have, they should always be supplemental to live observation. In the grand scheme of things, surveys are at the bottom, focus groups above that, then live experience feedback. (rD needs mystery shoppers!) And finally, there needs to be experienced leadership and vision at the top. There is no substitute for the human factor, and surveys can't capture that.

Re: volunteers lawsuit... From Missouri, I think? (St Louis Rock n Roll) Judge threw it out for lack of standing. The statute of limitation ran out, so there was never a ruling on the merits of the case. It was brought by a law professor who should have known better (the judge really gave it to her in the ruling), and no one has since brought another suit, so it may have been a personal crusade. HOWEVER, without a ruling on the merits, they perhaps decided to nip it in the bud so they never have to deal with it, or maybe that got a warning from the state. There's no way to know.

Since the Disneyland Half is their marquee event out there, it will be under a lot of scrutiny. I will be very interested to see how that goes.

 

[Ariel484]

And they didn't even touch on the rumors that the course was cut short for some runners....

Update on this: the runDisney Facebook group I am in has firsthand reports from people who were either diverted or saw the diversion happening...so yes, the course WAS cut for some runners.

I marked the location on the map with a star - runDisney basically started diverting people so that they wouldn't do the loop from mile 7.5ish - mile 8.3. So it cut about 0.8 mile for some people. The MousePlant article didn't address this, but I'm guessing it happened because they had to be on time with re-opening streets in Anaheim and were running behind due to the late start mentioned in the article.

EDIT: Per a post from the "Balloon Dude," runDisney discussed this possibility ahead of time with the Balloon People and thought it would be better to give those in danger of being swept the opportunity to do this cut rather than get on the SAG bus since they had to open the streets up.

 

[camaker]

Update on this: the runDisney Facebook group I am in has firsthand reports from people who were either diverted or saw the diversion happening...so yes, the course WAS cut for some runners.

I marked the location on the map with a star - runDisney basically started diverting people so that they wouldn't do the loop from mile 7.5ish - mile 8.3. So it cut about 0.8 mile for some people. The MousePlant article didn't address this, but I'm guessing it happened because they had to be on time with re-opening streets in Anaheim and were running behind due to the late start mentioned in the article.

I saw this and, to me, it's a huge issue. They advertise USATF certified courses and post results online that can be used for PoTs for other races. If they are cutting the course short rather than sweeping people and still reporting that they have valid finishing times for the distance, that's fraud and cuts right to the integrity of the sport. There have also been unconfirmed reports of them doing this in the WDW marathon, too.

 

[bumbershoot]

Re: volunteers lawsuit... From Missouri, I think? (St Louis Rock n Roll) Judge threw it out for lack of standing. The statute of limitation ran out, so there was never a ruling on the merits of the case. It was brought by a law professor who should have known better (the judge really gave it to her in the ruling), and no one has since brought another suit, so it may have been a personal crusade. HOWEVER, without a ruling on the merits, they perhaps decided to nip it in the bud so they never have to deal with it, or maybe that got a warning from the state. There's no way to know.

In no other mention of the lawsuit anywhere do I remember seeing that it actually went nowhere. Everyone has talked about things changing because of the suit, but that would be crazy since it ended the way it did (and it's hard for a casual googler to find that info by the way).

And the "volunteer" who filed suit was a law professor? Can you say "agenda"?

 

[Ariel484]

I saw this and, to me, it's a huge issue. They advertise USATF certified courses and post results online that can be used for PoTs for other races. If they are cutting the course short rather than sweeping people and still reporting that they have valid finishing times for the distance, that's fraud and cuts right to the integrity of the sport. There have also been unconfirmed reports of them doing this in the WDW marathon, too.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what to think of this! I bolded the portion in your response that really sticks out to me...do they wipe those results out for people or asterisk them or something?? It almost seems unfair that these people HAD to run the shortened course because the race started late.

I just did a quick search on the Tink page and while I see the warnings about the potential to be swept, I don't see anything about them potentially shortening the courses - just an "all courses are subject to change" note where the course maps are located.

I was especially surprised to read that this happens during the marathon. I get the urgency a little bit more for DL races since so much of the courses take place in Anaheim, but what's the reasoning behind doing it at WDW, when the courses are 100% on Disney property?

 

[camaker]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what to think of this! I bolded the portion in your response that really sticks out to me...do they wipe those results out for people or asterisk them or something?? It almost seems unfair that these people HAD to run the shortened course because the race started late.

I don't think they wipe out any results or flag them in any way. In the Facebook post I was following, someone had downloaded and analyzed the complete set of finishers and was using major discrepancies in the 10k and 15k split paces to confirm the redirection. There was no other indicator of the impacted runners mentioned. It certainly would have been much easier for him to confirm the redirection if there had been. I sincerely doubt that RunDisney will do anything about the times of those redirected. They most likely don't have any record of who was/was not since it was just moving the cones and saying "everyone go this way now". Plus, even when presented with concrete evidence of a BQ cheater at WDWMW, they have refused to DQ or alter results. I don't think they really care as long as the event is completed.

 

[opusone]

EDIT: Per a post from the "Balloon Dude," runDisney discussed this possibility ahead of time with the Balloon People and thought it would be better to give those in danger of being swept the opportunity to do this cut rather than get on the SAG bus since they had to open the streets up.

So, did the balloon dude actually do the entire course (i.e. they only started diverting folks after he passed by), or did they start diverting before getting to the greater-than-16-min/mi folks?

Also, I agree with @camaker, this is a mess as far as future POT proof, although it may be that none of the redirected folks were under 2:45 even with the diversion, so not a huge POT issue (at least not for Disney races). Did the person on FB that did the analysis mention what the fastest redirected time was?

 

[FFigawi]

I saw this and, to me, it's a huge issue. They advertise USATF certified courses and post results online that can be used for PoTs for other races. If they are cutting the course short rather than sweeping people and still reporting that they have valid finishing times for the distance, that's fraud and cuts right to the integrity of the sport. There have also been unconfirmed reports of them doing this in the WDW marathon, too.

To me, this shows that Disney has zero interest in the integrity of their races. Actively encouraging and supporting course cutting goes against every standard of race administration and fair play. The Marine Corps threw out and banned an entire group several years ago for course cutting to beat the bridge, and here Disney goes and tells people to do it. Disappointing and shameful, really.

 

[JulieODC]

Wow @Ariel484 - crazy. That's pretty bad - sweep or don't, but cutting the course short seems like it shouldn't be an option.

 

[Ariel484]

So, did the balloon dude actually do the entire course (i.e. they only started diverting folks after he passed by), or did they start diverting before getting to the greater-than-16-min/mi folks?

Balloon Dude did the entire course. From someone who saw the diversion happen (completing the loop and coming around to where they cut the course): "Balloon guy passed, rD opened the fencing and diverted people as we were at the mile 8.3 point after the loop."

 

[Ariel484]

I just had no idea that this was something they did...obviously we have seen them cut a course due to weather (Wine & Dine) but this was different - assuming that this happened due to the delayed start, this was entirely their fault. Really strange.

 

[GreatLakes]

To me, this shows that Disney has zero interest in the integrity of their races. Actively encouraging and supporting course cutting goes against every standard of race administration and fair play. The Marine Corps threw out and banned an entire group several years ago for course cutting to beat the bridge, and here Disney goes and tells people to do it. Disappointing and shameful, really.

Yea, this is not acceptable and another example of RunDisney not placing the event first. A half marathon is 13.1 miles. Not shorter because you aren't going to make the cut off. If you don't make the cut off you get swept. You didn't finish and shouldn't get a finisher's medal. It isn't a "good try" medal or "you worked hard" medal. It is a finisher medal but that is a whole different discussion. Their practice of giving medals to non-finishers was their first strike of what has since become many for me.

 

[Kender]

I feel a little less crazy to see it confirmed even if it upsets me from an integrity point of view. I really didn't know what to make of what that runner whom I was talking with that claimed the course was cut and seemed to think I should have realized it. Wish I could find her again and let her know the reason I was confused was because I was nearly a mile ahead of the cut when she caught up with me. I would love to hear her thoughts as a person who had her course cut to the point she caught up with the group nearly a mile ahead.

I brought it up here on Disboards specifically because I hadn't seen any talk on the official Facebook at the time and it seemed weird to me that something the big could go unnoticed and unspoken about.

 

[bumbershoot]

EDIT: Per a post from the "Balloon Dude," runDisney discussed this possibility ahead of time with the Balloon People and thought it would be better to give those in danger of being swept the opportunity to do this cut rather than get on the SAG bus since they had to open the streets up.

So they say they want fewer characters on the course to keep people from being swept, and they cut the course to keep people from being swept...but there are SO FEW people who are swept. They are literally placating a relative few (it's those who are swept *and then complain about being swept*, so it's a subset of those who are swept), but they are messing with *everyone's* enjoyment and understanding of the event.

I bolded the portion in your response that really sticks out to me...do they wipe those results out for people or asterisk them or something??

Didn't Marathon Investigation just find that the Maine Marathon (?) had to disqualify runners from potential BQ because a whole group of runners were sent down the wrong path? If they had all gone to the end and turned back they wouldn't have had to, but some had realized the problem and didn't do the whole thing. So they couldn't just add half a mile on to those peoples' runs, because not all had done the full extra bit.

Yea, this is not acceptable and another example of RunDisney not placing the event first. A half marathon is 13.1 miles. Not shorter because you aren't going to make the cut off. If you don't make the cut off you get swept.

We'll just end it there, yes? I agree 100% with that.


Now, if they have it in writing that you can CHOOSE to be taken further into the course (like RnR events I've done have had in writing) then continue, or choose a cut, if it becomes a problem, then that's one thing.

 

[jobo]

There was one high school band, right? Or did I imagine that?

There was ONE high school band on the course, they were located just as we turned the corner on to Anaheim Blvd. They were from Garden Grove HS.

 

[princessbride6205]

I wanted to comment on the survey reasoning for cutting entertainment. If true, I think Disney is reading this wrong in two ways. First, Disney assumes runners know that when they say "entertainment" that includes characters, other performers, local bands, cheerleaders, etc. I wonder if the way it was worded, respondents only thought about general course entertainment (bands/performers) rather than the characters and photo ops. Second, I would think that respondents are in the mindset that characters and Disney atmosphere are automatically part of runDisney races. I might assume that those are a given and instead prioritize other key race elements.

 

[Jsciv]

A quick comment or two:

Volunteers vs. paid employees: I help staff a professional conference in San Francisco and one here in southern California. Several years ago most conventions and shows run by for-profit companies that used to use volunteer labor switched to using contractors because of lawsuits making the rounds: volunteers were becoming a huge liability risk and rather than wait for suits to get settled, the companies running the shows went to the (far safer) contracting solution. It gutted us for the SF show because a lot of our volunteers were international and we are no longer able to take them unless they have a work visa in the US. It was also awful from our side because when you switch from people who want to be there for the experience to people who are there for a paycheck, the experience suffers. Now I don't know what Disney was reacting to, but I've seen this contractor trend sweeping events of several industries over the past 3 years, so it may have been something they felt they HAD to do rather than something they wanted to do. I know that even before the race they were recruiting extra hard locally because they were super short of shifts. I'm sure they are not happy with how it worked out, but I'm also sure that they're going to have to work with Legal to find a solution that works. I don't envy them that.

Parking garage: I was actually delayed getting out on Saturday as well. What is happening is that cars coming from the south up Disneyland Drive in order to get to Mickey & Friends have to make a U-Turn at Ball Rd. to enter the structure. However, that intersection also has traffic turning left from Ball Rd. after having exited I-5N at Harbor AND traffic coming south on Manchester Ave (which becomes DL Drive), so per traffic light cycle only two or three cars can successfully make the U. Cars coming from DL Drive are coming from the right hand lanes attempting to get into a stopped left hand lane for the U Turn.. Cars exiting the parking structure come from the left hand lanes and are trying to cross the stopped lane to get to the right hand lanes. Now, it's always awful to try to get into M&F from Disneyland Drive in the morning: you should never do it (though people do...). But normally there's not a lot of exiting traffic at 10am. That's what made it worse. Clearly they goofed that one up.

Entertainment: I did the 10K and talk about the entertainment at the 5K was all over my corral before the race started. I was really glad to see that they had corrected it (though I did have to go find another tune to get "Following the Leader" out of my head.....). But even in the 10K the lack of a band anywhere outside the park was noticeable if you'd done any previous DL 10k.

 

[Anisum]

So the whole course shortening thing kind just makes me feel icky. It sounds like Disney was taking action from a business standpoint rather than a race standpoint. For Disney, people complaining that they got kicked off the course because of a late start looks bad because they didn't get the race experience they were promised and in the case of those near the 16 minute mark who truly run that pace they would be picked up for circumstances beyond their control (I'm not sure what percentage that applies to versus those who just didn't train, are injured, etc. I'm also not sure what percentage of those people were comfortable with taking a shortened route). The right thing to do as a race organizer would have been to get in contact with the city and request an extension (which based on the article would have been a 9-10 minute extension) or pay a fine for failure to meet the deadline or whatever that political mess it would take to preserve the integrity of the course or to release corrals closer together (if safe to do so) in order to make up lost time. The former hurts their reputation with the city but from what I've heard that isn't stellar anyway. The later could have been ideal depending on how far apart corrals were released (Disney doesn't seem to have a set timing system for doing it) but it may also not have gained them enough.

So from their perspective I see where they made the decision to shorten the course. I don't really agree with it but I see it. They were thinking as Disney the company, not runDisney the race provider. I think one of my main issues with it is unless they set up a timing mat or took down bib numbers of the runners they rerouted I'm not really sure there is any way to know for sure that someone was rerouted in order to mark their time as such. I mean a mile is a pretty big distance to skip so it would theoretically show up in their times but I could see someone arguing that they stopped in a long bathroom line earlier in the race so that split just looked way worse than it really was if they marked their times based on exceedingly large negative splits.

 

[Ariel484]

I guess you could compare their 5K split from 10K to 15K to the others and get an *idea* of who got the course cut, but yeah, I don't think there's a way to know for sure.

 

[Ariel484]

I sent an email with feedback on Tink weekend. I have no idea if they'll read it, but at least I feel like I did something!