threads about race--vent

[smartestnumber5]

Does it bother anyone else that everytime there is a thread about racism directed at black people there are inevitably two seemingly unrelated issues that are brought up:

1) "Well I've known some black people who are just as racist as any white person."

and

2) "Why do black people get to use the N word and white people don't?"

Most of the time, I don't understand how these comments relate to the original post. The point of these threads are usually "some horrible thing happened involving racism toward black people." Does it make that horrible thing less horrible because some rap lyrics have the N word and because some black people are prejudiced?

And besides the off-topicness of the comments, I also just don't understand them. The complaints about the N word seem to imply an attitude of "It's not fair. If black people get to use that hateful word without public condemnation, why shouldn't I get to as well?" Are people actually upset that they're not allowed to say the N word??? (same goes for all other types of racial slurs, anti-gay slurs, anti-woman slurs, etc.) Is it some kind of matter of fairness that the dominant group in each of these cases doesn't get to call marginalized group names? Or is the point supposed to be that black people are actually racist towards other black people?

I also think that interchangeably talking about hatred of marginalized groups and hatred of dominant groups is dangerous and completely ignores history. Imagine if someone started a thread about neo-Nazi groups and someone came on and said "I know some Jews who are just as prejudiced against Christians as Nazis are against Jews." What? Did I miss a systematic slaughter of millions of Christians at the hands of Jews? Sure on an individual level hatred is hatred, but the problems of racism, sexism, and homophobia are not simply problems of individuals who just happen to be hateful in a certain way--they are problems of power. Things like slavery, the Holocaust, lynching, and discrimination against women and glbt people are not the results of a handful of people who just happened to be hateful. These events happened because 1) those particular hateful views were shared amongst a large portion of the dominant group, 2) the majority group had such a stronghold of control of state appartuses that they were able to transform their personal prejudices into law, 3) those in the majority who did not outrightly affirm the hateful views either did not do enough to counter their being made into law or did not have big enough numbers to stop it. I don't think we can talk about racism/sexism/anti-Semetism/homophobia without considering these histories.

(ETA: while I've seen these issues come up on a couple current threads, I think actually it's been worse on past threads--I've been noticing it for months now and just was thinking about it against because of recent threads)

 

[akhenaten]

it sickens me when anyone uses the n word..........

 

[KristinBelle]

Along the same lines I've never understood why people use the term "reverse racism". Isn't racism, just racism no matter what race is being discriminated against?

ETA- I do get why people use it, I just think it's a silly term.

 

[JadenLayne]

The biggest thing I don't understand is why, here in the south especially there is a Black Man's or Black Women or Black something or other Club everywhere you turn. BUT if we had a White Man, White Women or White anything club then it would be racism. I don't get the double standard. Racism is Racism whether it be white on black or black on white. No one is worse than the other.

 

[LiLIrishChick63]

The biggest thing I don't understand is why, here in the south especially there is a Black Man's or Black Women or Black something or other Club everywhere you turn. BUT if we had a White Man, White Women or White anything club then it would be racism. I don't get the double standard. Racism is Racism whether it be white on black or black on white. No one is worse than the other.

i can't remember the story clearly, but my sister is a history buff and she told me that there was once a scholarship for people who were just white at some point(i want to say.....in the last 15 years or so.....maybe 20) and apparently there was an uproar about it being a "racist" thing. but all of the other minorities have scholarships for being a certain race.

 

[smartestnumber5]

The biggest thing I don't understand is why, here in the south especially there is a Black Man's or Black Women or Black something or other Club everywhere you turn. BUT if we had a White Man, White Women or White anything club then it would be racism. I don't get the double standard. Racism is Racism whether it be white on black or black on white. No one is worse than the other.

I don't exactly what type of clubs you have in mind, but what came to my mind was things like historically black colleges and universities (which I think of as in the same category as women's colleges).

I think the answer is that there have been hundreds of years of white people owning, beating, killing, raping, and despising black people in this country--but not vice versa--and all of this with the blessing of the law! I think the idea is that African-Americans might want a space of their own to talk about how they can, as a community, get past their history of being owned, raped, beaten, killed by white people--and how their community can deal with the crazy amount of racism that continues to be thrown their way. Similarly, I think all black and all women's colleges can be a great chance for people who in mixed colleges often are overlooked or are academically stereotyped. I don't know much about historically black universities and colleges, but I do know a lot about women's colleges (almost went to one) and the research done on them clearly shows that female students greatly benefit from women only colleges. These colleges do not take an attitude that men are inferior to women or that men are so different than women that the sexes have to be separated; quite the contrary, the colleges take the position that men and women are equals, but that society consistently fails to treat women this way. All women colleges are supposed to be one kind of solution to a society that continues to treat women as if they are inferior. I suspect the same is true for all black colleges and for many black only organizations. Since these colleges have as their very point countering the obvious existence of anti-woman and anti-black racism in this country, it is unclear how there could ever be an analogous college for whites only or for men only. Where is the obvious and clear treatment of men and whites as inferior?

Now, of course, it is quite possible that women or black people could start up an organization and decide to limit membership to themselves out of hatred or belief in the inferiority of men and whites, it is just not all that likely. But we know that historically this has been the basis for almost all exclusions of women and blacks from various organizations and educational institutions. Thus it seems to me that being extra suspicious of white only and male only organizations and educational institutions seems to make perfect sense.

 

[LiLIrishChick63]

to the OP.....

well.......if you notice, a lot of the times when the race card is pulled, it is by a minority. you never hear a white person say "omg that was a racist remark!!" i actually DID say it once, and the whole thing got turned around on me......to make it look like i was racist. i'm not racist, i just don't like a$$h*le people. and they come in ever race and sex!

as for the "Why can they use it and not us" theory.....i think that if EVERYONE just stopped using the word, things would be better. but for some reason or another, it's still used. it's a double standard, no matter how anyone wants to look at it.

 

[smartestnumber5]

Along the same lines I've never understood why people use the term "reverse racism". Isn't racism, just racism no matter what race is being discriminated against?

I think generally people use the term "reverse racism" when they know that what they are talking about does not fit the characterization of "racism"--given the kinds of emotions and history that word embodies (i.e. legal slavery, lynching, raping, almost universal educational/political exclusion, etc). I often hear this term when universities consider an applicants race in their admissions and count being a member of an underrepresented racial group favorably (just like being a member of other underrepresented groups can count favorably--i.e. playing the irish bagpipes, owning one's own business at the age of 18, being a single parent, being a talented football player, etc.). I think the adjective "reverse" is used because people recognize the absurdity of refering to such an admissions policy with the same word that lynching is referred to.

 

[LiLIrishChick63]

I don't exactly what type of clubs you have in mind, but what came to my mind was things like historically black colleges and universities (which I think of as in the same category as women's colleges).

I think the answer is that there have been hundreds of years of white people owning, beating, killing, raping, and despising black people in this country--but not vice versa--and all of this with the blessing of the law! I think the idea is that African-Americans might want a space of their own to talk about how they can, as a community, get past their history of being owned, raped, beaten, killed by white people--and how their community can deal with the crazy amount of racism that continues to be thrown their way. Similarly, I think all black and all women's colleges can be a great chance for people who in mixed colleges often are overlooked or are academically stereotyped. I don't know much about historically black universities and colleges, but I do know a lot about women's colleges (almost went to one) and the research done on them clearly shows that female students greatly benefit from women only colleges. These colleges do not take an attitude that men are inferior to women or that men are so different than women that the sexes have to be separated; quite the contrary, the colleges take the position that men and women are equals, but that society consistently fails to treat women this way. All women colleges are supposed to be one kind of solution to a society that continues to treat women as if they are inferior. I suspect the same is true for all black colleges and for many black only organizations. Since these colleges have as their very point countering the obvious existence of anti-woman and anti-black racism in this country, it is unclear how there could ever be an analogous college for whites only or for men only. Where is the obvious and clear treatment of men and whites as inferior?

Now, of course, it is quite possible that women or black people could start up an organization and decide to limit membership to themselves out of hatred or belief in the inferiority of men and whites, it is just not all that likely. But we know that historically this has been the basis for almost all exclusions of women and blacks from various organizations and educational institutions. Thus it seems to me that being extra suspicious of white only and male only organizations and educational institutions seems to make perfect sense.

........so.....what about all of the other countries that have had racism and hatred in them?? can their citizens....or their "people" that live here have clubs too?

believe it or not, there was a LOT of racism towards the Irish about 50 years ago or so. hate crimes and what-not, but for some reaon.....it's not taught in schools, and not talked about much.

and even more with the Germans......their racism was publicized, but there are no societies or colleges or scholarships or ANYTHING for those of the German or Irish decent. not anywhere i've seen, anyway.

 

[smartestnumber5]

to the OP.....

well.......if you notice, a lot of the times when the race card is pulled, it is by a minority. you never hear a white person say "omg that was a racist remark!!" i actually DID say it once, and the whole thing got turned around on me......to make it look like i was racist. i'm not racist, i just don't like a$$h*le people. and they come in ever race and sex!

as for the "Why can they use it and not us" theory.....i think that if EVERYONE just stopped using the word, things would be better. but for some reason or another, it's still used. it's a double standard, no matter how anyone wants to look at it.

Why would that be better? That's what I don't get. I'm a little distanced from the use of the N word, but I do use traditional anti-gay slurs for myself and my gay friends. How would it be better for us if only straight people used those words?

I admit that it is a "double standard" in the sense that there are different standards for different people based on their membership in the group the term aims at--but why is that such a bad thing? Given that the reality is that straight people are going to call me names no matter whether I use those words or not, why shouldn't I try to take as much power away from the word as I can?

 

[KristinBelle]

I changed my mind about posting in this thread. I'm just going to but first let me say I love everyone.

 

[LiLIrishChick63]

Why would that be better? That's what I don't get. I'm a little distanced from the use of the N word, but I do use traditional anti-gay slurs for myself and my gay friends. How would it be better for us if only straight people used those words?

I admit that it is a "double standard" in the sense that there are different standards for different people based on their membership in the group the term aims at--but why is that such a bad thing? Given that the reality is that straight people are going to call me names no matter whether I use those words or not, why shouldn't I try to take as much power away from the word as I can?

i meant in general, if everyone stopped using racist terms. and i meant sexist terms as well. if we all stopped using them, it wouldn't be a problem.

maybe some people think it's "ok" to use these words because "oh well if they can, i can!" i honestly don't know. i don't use the words. they don't usually come up in conversation for me. there's no need for them to.

we have to remember that "straight white people" are a part of this country too. if we keep taking EVERYTHING away.....isn't that being racist/sexist as well?? "oh you can't say that! you can't do that! you can't get that scholarship! you can't wear that!" it gets frustrating after a while. i'm a member of this country too and i deserve the same rights as everyone else. and i don't think i deserve anything MORE than anyone else, either. but that's a whole other story about "world peace" and all that crap.

 

[smartestnumber5]

........so.....what about all of the other countries that have had racism and hatred in them?? can their citizens....or their "people" that live here have clubs too?

believe it or not, there was a LOT of racism towards the Irish about 50 years ago or so. hate crimes and what-not, but for some reaon.....it's not taught in schools, and not talked about much.

and even more with the Germans......their racism was publicized, but there are no societies or colleges or scholarships or ANYTHING for those of the German or Irish decent. not anywhere i've seen, anyway.

There are such scholarships--at least I did find such scholarships for Italians when I was applying for scholarships. I would suspect that such clubs exist as well--I'd be very surprised if there were no such clubs.

Just an aside, it is perfectly legal to have a club which limits its membership based on race (and sex). There is one in my hometown which does not allow anyone but white people. My father was a member. So was the mayor. There wasn't any reasoning to this other than "we don't want any of those people (all they did was play poker and drink...not like they were trying to figure out how to help the white working class or something). Turned out the Mayor was also a member. That came out after the place was busted for illegal gambling machines. He pretended that he knew nothing of the whites only policy, but no one believed him. Still, nothing ever came of it--nobody cared that the mayor of the town belonged to an organization that proclaimed its desire not to have to associate with black or Hispanic people.

 

[smartestnumber5]

i meant in general, if everyone stopped using racist terms. and i meant sexist terms as well. if we all stopped using them, it wouldn't be a problem.

maybe some people think it's "ok" to use these words because "oh well if they can, i can!" i honestly don't know. i don't use the words. they don't usually come up in conversation for me. there's no need for them to.

we have to remember that "straight white people" are a part of this country too. if we keep taking EVERYTHING away.....isn't that being racist/sexist as well?? "oh you can't say that! you can't do that! you can't get that scholarship! you can't wear that!" it gets frustrating after a while. i'm a member of this country too and i deserve the same rights as everyone else. and i don't think i deserve anything MORE than anyone else, either. but that's a whole other story about "world peace" and all that crap.

But racist/sexist/homphobic people are not going to stop calling names no matter what. People do not yell out of car windows at gay people or leave them notes calling them names because they happened to hear a gay person say d*ke. They call names because they are hateful. That is a reality, and it is not going to change no matter what marginalized groups do. So the question is--given the fact that these hateful people will exist and will call me names no matter what--should I or should I not use the term d*ke when using that word can be beneficial to me?

I don't know what it is that is being taken away from straight white people. In fact, given the obvious inequity of the law regarding gay and straight people and given the abundance of statistics showing white people as a group to be better off in terms of life expectancy, health, education, money, poverty, etc. compared to black people, I don't see how white people or straight people have anything to complain about on that front (and I am a white person). If white people and straight people don't deserve more, then why do they have so much more? I just don't understand how white people being expected not to say the N word can somehow translate to some type of rights violation.

 

[blondeheroine]

The biggest thing I don't understand is why, here in the south especially there is a Black Man's or Black Women or Black something or other Club everywhere you turn. BUT if we had a White Man, White Women or White anything club then it would be racism. I don't get the double standard. Racism is Racism whether it be white on black or black on white. No one is worse than the other.

Well, to be fair - how many members of the elite, standard country clubs favored by the old money of the South are black? I think associations like the NCF and NAACP were created because of a lack of representation in these areas - not to be elitist. It's only been a half a decade since the march on Washington.

I understand the principle of your argument, but I see the other side as well. Unfortunately, there is still much racism in the world that keeps people of minority (black, latino, etc.) from joining some of the "uppity" associations here in the U.S.

But, to answer the OPs question - I think it's a question that younger people ask because they see it on television and haven't lived long enough to experience racism. There's a line on Scrubs where, JD who loves rap apparently, asks Turk if he can repeat all the lines in the song. Turk just wags his head. LOL

 

[PaulaSB12]

The history of slavery is a terrible one, BUT we must not forget that many black people in Africa made a large amount of money selling their fellow africans into slavery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/9chapter2.shtml


http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html
Also slavery in Africa still exists, unicef claim that 200,000 children in Central Africa are sold into slavery NOW. Slavery in the past was terrible but lets just try and stop slavery NOW rather than worry about historical slavery. Oh by the way the slave chip with the children did make port but without the children, it is believed that (since they have never been seen again anywhere) that they where dumped in the sea and are most likely dead.

Here is an interesting quote


In 1807, Britain declared all slave trading illegal. The king of Bonny (in what is now the Nigerian delta) was dismayed at the conclusion of the practice.

"We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by God himself

 

[disneyjunkie]

Why am I getting into this.

OP, I agree with you 100%.

JadenLayne black clubs, groups... were started because black people were not allowed to take part in the exsitaning ones.

HBCU open across the country after the Civil War because blacks were not allowed to attend "white" colleges and universities.

There are scholarships for every race, religion you can think of. I'm back in school now.(20 years ago I attended a HBCU in NC ) My college has a huge list of scholarhships that target various people. There are some for black, white, spanish, Jewish, Catholic, single moms, women, men, foregin students, Americans only, certain age groups... the list goes on and on.

Many historically black colleges offer scholarship to white, spanish, Asian students. Black students do not qualify for those scholarships.

A white student attending a HBCU can qualify for several scholarships from The United Negro College Fund. Since I don't attend a HBCU I can't get anything from UNCF.

 

[blondeheroine]

Why am I getting into this.

OP, I agree with you 100%.

JadenLayne black clubs, groups... were started because black people were not allowed to take part in the exsitaning ones.

HBCU open across the country after the Civil War because blacks were not allowed to attend "white" colleges and universities.

There are scholarships for every race, religion you can think of. I'm back in school now.(20 years ago I attended a HBCU in NC ) My college has a huge list of scholarhships that target various people. There are some for black, white, spanish, Jewish, Catholic, single moms, women, men, foregin students, Americans only, certain age groups... the list goes on and on.

Many historically black colleges offer scholarship to white, spanish, Asian students. Black students do not qualify for those scholarships.

A white student attending a HBCU can qualify for several scholarships from The United Negro College Fund. Since I don't attend a HBCU I can't get anything from UNCF.

Good points. I know that since my great grandmother was Cherokee, I am granted assistance for financial aid. I have yet to persue it, but I know it's there.

 

[DISUNC]

OP! You stated MY thoughts with your words

At the very least, the remarks (as you previously stated) on these boards, make me cringe!

 

[JadenLayne]

I am not talking about the NAACP and nationally known clubs like that. Here in the South we have off the top of my head,

The Black Association for the Betterment of the Black Community
The Black Women's alcoholism something or other (supporting black women who drink.)
The Black Minority Commission on Retirement

And there are more. I guess what I don't understand is if we had a
White Women club to help with alcoholism there would be an uproar that we didn't want to help the black women. It's just really a double standard.

I understand what you are saying about the Country Club etc. but it wasn't right then so what makes it right now? I'm talking about both Country Club types and the Black, White, Purple groups for the treatment of animals. I don't think either is right.

We will never EVER move forward if we keep going backwards. To me there should be no exclusive clubs like that because it's accomplishing nothing.