Thoughts on Salvation?

[letterdavidman]

I was wondering what the majority opinion on the topic of Christian salvation was here on the DIS. As I see it (and, believe me, I'm certainly no theologian), there are really two schools of thought: the Calvinist view, which is, basically, once a person becomes saved, they cannot lose their salvation (otherwise known as eternal security); and the Arminian view, which posits that one's salvation can, indeed, be lost, that one can "backslide" and, in order to make amends, one must repent in order to regain one's saved status.

I, myself (being Baptist), believe that once you're saved, you're always saved. And that viewpoint has caused no end of friction between me and my Church of Christ-attending in-laws. Why do I believe this way? Well, to me, anyway, the Arminian position seems to put the power of salvation pretty squarely in our (e.g., humans') hands, because in order to maintain it, one must live right and not sin (and, if they do, they must repent from their wrongdoing)... so it seems that their salvation would be based, in part at least, on them doing good works. Which the bible clearly states is NOT how man achieves salvation. (Of course, this is not even getting into the fact that, I'm pretty sure, the Church of Christ believes that salvation is a two-step process: first asking Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour, and then being baptised by full immersion... which, again, to me seems like your being saved is based partly on doing something.)

So, where do you all stand?

 

[clarabelle]

I am Presbyterian.
We don't focus on "Saved". Many of us believe that salvation is a gift of Gods grace. So we don't have a moment when we are saved.
I was "saved" 2000 years ago -when Jesus died on the cross.

 

[MrsPete]

I, myself (being Baptist), believe that once you're saved, you're always saved.

I'm also a Baptist, and I can't really get my mind around the "once saved, always saved" concept. It may be right, and I just can't grasp it.

The Bible says that to be saved, one must accept Christ and be baptised -- that's it, done, you're saved. However, the great majority of us will not make this decision on our death beds, so the question is, "What do you do now that you have the gift of Salvation?" It seems obvious that a person who is saved will do his best to learn about God's will for his life and to follow Him, which would imply good deeds and obedience. A person who doesn't do these things might've just gone through the motions of salvation, might've just said the words but not genuinely felt them.

The Bible does speak of having one's name "blotted out" of the Book of Life, which seems to imply that you can be saved and wander away from God. Or perhaps the truth is that the person who "backslides" never fully gave his life over to Christ in the first place; thus, he was never genuinely saved at all.

I don't know -- people much smarter and better educated than me have debated this topic for years and years, and they can't agree! I doubt we're going to discover anything new on this board. The best thing to do is to make sure that you're saved AND you continue to walk in His ways so that you never have to worry about the question!

 

[MrsPete]

I am Presbyterian.
We don't focus on "Saved". Many of us believe that salvation is a gift of Gods grace. So we don't have a moment when we are saved.
I was "saved" 2000 years ago -when Jesus died on the cross.

See, a Baptist would say that you believe in Pre-destination (a topic on which I am uncertain), BUT you still have to accept Christ and follow him. You were chosen -- as is everyone who's ever heard the message -- but you still have the responsibility to do God's will. You can't just sit back and say, "Hey, He chose me, I have nothing to do but wait until I die. No need for me to go to church, to tithe, to do good deeds -- I was chosen, and that's it!" (And that's not what I'm hearing you say at all -- just making the point.)

 

[letterdavidman]

MrsPete and clarabelle--both of you have made some very interesting points.

See, the thing is, though I do pretty much believe in eternal security (this belief having been bolstered by reading the book Eternal Security, by Charles Stanley), ultimately, not all of my questions have been answered yet to my satisfaction. So I can see the validity to the Arminian point of view as well. And, as you said, MrsPete, many, many people with far higher IQs than mine have debated this, to no real, concrete resolution, for many, many years.

 

[clarabelle]

Yes -I do believe in Pre-destination. If I say that God is all powerful, omnipotient -then I have no trouble thinking that only God knows who is going to heaven and knows that ahead of time.
Its not throwing up your hands and saying you have no control so you might as well sin. Its admiting that you are humble and that Salvation comes from God though Jesus Christ.
Being "good" and trying to emulate Christ is an affirmation of my faith -something I feel called to to as a Christian. But it is not something I do to get to Heaven.

I am certainly not trying to get anyone to change their beliefs. I just like to chime in on these threads so people will know that not all Christians are alike and there are lots of different aproaches to Christianity.

 

[bgirldeb]

No debate here, just my personal belief:

I don't believe in 'once saved, always saved'.

Matthew 24:13 says that 'He who endures to the end will be saved'.

Hebrews 10:26,27 speaks of how deliberate sin can cause you to lose salvation.

 

[korbbec]

I don't believe in salvation at all. Salvation from what? We are all going to die.

 

[chris1gill]

I believe there is no salvation, our spirit becomes one with the earth and becomes either a positive or negative force...

 

[Disney Doll]

I behave that you must behave accordingly in order to achieve eternal life with God.

If you are "saved" and then backslide dramatically, then you lose that salvation.

 

[Pam]

I behave that you must behave accordingly in order to achieve eternal life with God.

If you are "saved" and then backslide dramatically, then you lose that salvation.

That is my belief as well.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Okay, so many good points being made here!

As a 'saved' or 'born again' Christian, these are my thoughts.

1. Predestination: Nope, I just can't swallow that, at all. If one is to believe that certain people are 'chosen' for salvation, then one must also believe that others are predestined to death, or (as a few believe in these later times) eternal punishment in hell-fire.

Nope, I do not buy this brand of predestination one bit.
The Scriptures say that it is not the will of God that any man should perish. (notice, NO reference to burning in eternal hell-fire. I do not believe in the more modern, post Dante, concept of Hell.) The wages of sin is, very simply, 'death'. I can not even begin to believe that God has created all humanity as 'equal', only to then decide that salvation would only be offered to a few. In the parable about Christ, as the shepherd, he goes after the single 'lost' sheep. All are worthy of salvation. The Scriptures say that EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And, as an afterthought about predestination... I feel that we all have the common 'human condition'... And, as humans, I think it is hard for one to feel 'chosen' without also feeling 'better' or 'self-righteous'.

As far as Salvation, I believe that true Christianity is not a 'HOPE' so religion, but a 'KNOW' so religion. The Scriptures tell me that these words are written so that you may know that you have eternal life.

While God is indeed omnipotent and all-knowing, the alpha and the omega, from very first days, in Eden, mankind has made choices that affect their Salvation. He told the first of mankind that if they made the wrong choice that they would surely die. (NOTE: this does not say suffer punishment in eternal hell-fire) The wages of sin is 'death'.

So the question is, if Adam and Eve lost their salvation due to their actions, is this the same today????

The answer, for me, is a resounding NO.
This is the very meaning of what Christ, and Christianity, are all about.

Because, thru GRACE we are saved. All of mankind have indeed fallen short of the the will of God. Not one of us is without sin. So, if one is to believe that 'sin', automatically removes our salvation, then Heaven would be one very very empty place. Full of silence instead of joy and praise.

True faith and salvation (not just the 'going thru the motions') means that we are now re-born in Christ. If one thinks that they can just 'go thru the motions' and then be saved forever, they are sadly mistaken. This is, in fact, not being 'SAVED' at all. As a child of Christ, we will want to follow Christ's ways. If one thinks that they can just 'go thru the motions' and then they have a free pass because they are forgiven, well, this just isn't so.

Yes, GRACE is the very hardest concept to understand.
And, yes, GRACE is the most beautiful and wonderous concept to understand!
I thank God every single day for his GRACE!!!

God saves us thru his grace! We, in no way, are able to save ourselves. There is simply NO way that a person can do enough 'good works' to earn their salvation. It that were true, then we would not need Christ, or Grace. To say that we must earn our salvation thru works is like saying, "Hey, why do I need Christ anyhow???". So, I place my faith in Christ, not my own, very limited, human and mortal being.

So, yes, by grace are we saved, and not of 'works' (good deeds, etc...) lest any man should boast. But, as children of Christ, if Christ truly dwells within us, then we are compelled to 'do good'. Because, faith, without works, is dead.

 

[Judy from Boise]

For sure a Calvinist here, I had to really examine my beliefs when I was on faculty at at Nazarene University.
I do beleive in pre-destination, as defined as "fore-knowledge". It is God's will that none should perish, so we are ALL chosen. However in God's fore-knowledge, he all ready knows who will accept salvation's gift while on this earth.
When Jesus said "it is finished" my salvation was secured once and for all. Now "no one will pluck me out of his hand".My salvation was accomplished by noyhing on my part. The Bible says that even the power to believe comes from God himself.
I am just a sinner saved by grace, and that means i will continue to sin in this life, but my salvation is secure.
Sanctification (starting with baptism) is a life long process where we become more Christ like.....but has nothing to do with my salvation except that the grace of salvation is my motivation on my journey to sanctification.

 

[letterdavidman]

God saves us thru his grace! We, in no way, are able to save ourselves. There is simply NO way that a person can do enough 'good works' to earn their salvation. It that were true, then we would not need Christ, or Grace. To say that we must earn our salvation thru works is like saying, "Hey, why do I need Christ anyhow???". So, I place my faith in Christ, not my own, very limited, human and mortal being.

So, yes, by grace are we saved, and not of 'works' (good deeds, etc...) lest any man should boast. But, as children of Christ, if Christ truly dwells within us, then we are compelled to 'do good'. Because, faith, without works, is dead.

You know, I think your beliefs, vis-a-vis salvation, are pretty much the same as mine. But isn't the Arminian belief (e.g., salvation can be lost) pretty much saying that faith alone is insufficient to achieve salvation? That, in order to "maintain" one's salvation, it must be done by BOTH faith AND "good works", as it were?

And I do love seeing all the diversity of beliefs--keep posting!

 

[Judy from Boise]

Yes, and they also believe that there is a second "state of grace" where you no longer have a sin nature, but have become holy.

 

[Buckalew11]

For sure a Calvinist here, I had to really examine my beliefs when I was on faculty at at Nazarene University.
I do beleive in pre-destination, as defined as "fore-knowledge". It is God's will that none should perish, so we are ALL chosen. However in God's fore-knowledge, he all ready knows who will accept salvation's gift while on this earth.
When Jesus said "it is finished" my salvation was secured once and for all. Now "no one will pluck me out of his hand".My salvation was accomplished by noyhing on my part. The Bible says that even the power to believe comes from God himself.
I am just a sinner saved by grace, and that means i will continue to sin in this life, but my salvation is secure.
Sanctification (starting with baptism) is a life long process where we become more Christ like.....but has nothing to do with my salvation except that the grace of salvation is my motivation on my journey to sanctification.

I totally agree with you, Judy.
I think you said it clearly and simply. thank you!

 

[MzDiz]

I grew up Catholic, but am now a Buddhist. Growing up, we believed that we could screw it up at any moment. There was no way someone that robbed his employer blind, but attended church every Sunday was going to heaven. Likewise, if there were natives in the trees in South America that had never heard of Christianity, but lived good lives, they were secured a place in heaven. It was somewhat comforting to a child to think that God saw through it all and took those who were truly worthy, regardless of "official" religion. I know there are many that do not believe this way.

As a Buddhist, I'm not concerned about eternity. What I do in the here and now, effects me in the here and now. Karma assures that I will reap what I sow. But I'll leave it at that, since I know the OP was specifically asking for Christian opinions.

 

[rie'smom]

I believe in an afterlife in Heaven. However,my philosophy is to believe in God,live life right and the rest is unanswerable and doesn't matter.
Debates about what is meant by this or that won't affect anyone's life except maybe to cause hurt feelings.These differences are man-made because this man interpreted the Bible one way and another man interpreted it another way. Some believe in pre-determination and other don't. It's highly doubtful that anyone will change anyone else's mind..
It's like which is better the values,the mods or the deluxes.Arguments about one's faith can unfortunately fall to that point of ridiculousness. If your foot is firmly planted in one camp,nothing will change your mind.

 

[GeorgeG]

I don't believe in it at all, but that's just me. I believe that if you lead a good life you're going to be okay no matter what actually happens.

 

[clarabelle]

Okay, so many good points being made here!

As a 'saved' or 'born again' Christian, these are my thoughts.

1. Predestination: Nope, I just can't swallow that, at all. If one is to believe that certain people are 'chosen' for salvation, then one must also believe that others are predestined to death, or (as a few believe in these later times) eternal punishment in hell-fire.

Nope, I do not buy this brand of predestination one bit.
The Scriptures say that it is not the will of God that any man should perish. (notice, NO reference to burning in eternal hell-fire. I do not believe in the more modern, post Dante, concept of Hell.) The wages of sin is, very simply, 'death'. I can not even begin to believe that God has created all humanity as 'equal', only to then decide that salvation would only be offered to a few. In the parable about Christ, as the shepherd, he goes after the single 'lost' sheep. All are worthy of salvation. The Scriptures say that EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And, as an afterthought about predestination... I feel that we all have the common 'human condition'... And, as humans, I think it is hard for one to feel 'chosen' without also feeling 'better' or 'self-righteous'.

Its a really complex subject invovlving single predestination - double predestination and universalism. Wishing on a Star I don't think that you can assume that everyone who believes in predestination believes in it the way you interpret it. I don't know whose "Brand" you are discussing -but it is not mine.
I personally don't believe in your definition of it -but in a different modified definition. Then again -I am not a literalist and am willing to say there are many things I don't understand. It is not an argument that can be proven right or wrong.I certainly don't think of myself as "chosen"