The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[sethschroeder]

not like the mRNA technology was completely new and unstudied until this year. Research began in 1989 and picked up steam when it was being studied for the first SARS virus that appeared in 2002 and then MERS in 2012.

This should be very clear though. There is a large difference between smaller studies and smaller use cases compared to full global usage.

Is it new? No

Is it new from the standpoint of wide usage? Yes

And I have been vaccinated and had covid19 prior to being vaccinated.

 

[tink2424]

So we’ve gone back and forth about what to do and we’ve decided that we are not getting this vaccine regardless. Maybe in ten years when we see how potential autoimmune issues play out. We are not worried about the short term reactions like blood clots or rashes. We are worried about long term damage to the immune system. I do think it is possible that the vaccine is fine, but it is definitely a bit creepy. We’ve had Covid, so we have immunity. Not that we were ever very worried about Covid anyway, 99._% survival rate and all. But really, what gives us pause is the lack of debate. It makes us very uncomfortable that leading doctors who have voiced caution on the vaccine have been silenced. Why? Initially we were actually leaning towards getting it, but we don’t like the inability to discuss potential issues openly. This vaccine changes the definition of vaccine. It is not a regular vaccine. All perspectives on it should be heard. We always get all vaccines otherwise. Flu shot every year etc. But you guys should all be aware that since the vaccine is only under emergency authorization, anyone who gets the vaccine now is actually part of the clinical trials. I personally think it is unconscionable to give it to children at this point. If it was a more deadly disease it might be worse the risk. But this virus is pretty tame in the grand scheme of human existence.

YES!!! And furthermore how many doctors were shut down and silenced when they were sharing treatment protocols for COVID that were working in their practices/hospitals. That is ridiculous and likely led to more people dying unnecessarily. We have a huge problem right now that anyone that disagrees with the current mainstream narrative/propaganda is automatically a conspiracy theorist or an idiot. This is definitely going to bite them in the butt soon on so many topics.

 

[tink2424]

The excess mortality due to the virus all around the world in 2020 and 2021 is anything but tame. Especially when we know that in many countries, it's been undercounted.

Also, we cannot simply talk 1% death rate and ignore long haulers.

How many long haulers do we actually have? It seems like everyone mentions this as if it is a large amount of cases but I can't find any conclusive evidence of how many actually have this. It seems it may not be as common as people are making it out to be.

 

[tink2424]

Who are these leading doctors that have been silenced? And, as others have pointed out, if your concern is the new mRNA technology, there's the far more traditional J&J vaccine you can take advantage of.

The J&J vaccine is not a traditional vaccine. The main difference of the J&J & AZ vaccines is that they use other viruses as a vector to deliver the DNA (yes DNA in J&J/AZ) into your cells to produce the proteins. In no way are they traditional vaccines. Not even close. All of the currently approved vaccines are brand new technology with limited safety data & lack any long term data.

 

[tink2424]

plus the mRNA vaccines have been the basis of cancer vaccines for the last decade so by no means 'new', Plus the virii that the mRNA vaccines are working to create immunity for are RNA based virii so it makes sense to use a mRNA vaccine instead of using a 'killed' virus because the mRNA can be effective against classes of virii instead of a specific virus

Yes, & how many people were in those trials? What were the long term outcomes? It is almost impossible to determine since cancer creates such a confounding condition that it is difficult to know if something is normal disease progression or as a result of the technology. In no way do we really know the safety of these vaccines.

 

[Maggie'sMom]

How many long haulers do we actually have? It seems like everyone mentions this as if it is a large amount of cases but I can't find any conclusive evidence of how many actually have this. It seems it may not be as common as people are making it out to be.

The stat I've seen is 1/3 of people who had COVID are long haulers.

 

[tink2424]

It's not like the mRNA technology was completely new and unstudied until this year. Research began in 1989 and picked up steam when it was being studied for the first SARS virus that appeared in 2002 and then MERS in 2012.

The wave hitting India now is affecting youger people, and there is concern a third wave in India will hit even younger children harder. Do we sit and wait for the death rates amoung children to skyrocket before we begin studies? It's being proven safe and effective amoung adults and teens. There's nothing to indicate it won't be the same in children, so it would be irresponsible to delay clinical trials in kids.

The incidence of adverse effects from the vaccine is far less than the incidence of adverse effects from getting COVID. A friend of mine was telling me about a couple she is friends with. Both had moderate cases of COVID. Felt horrible for a couple weeks but didn't go to the hospital. They got better and felt perfectly fine for a few weeks, then the husband developed multiple blood clots in his lungs and was hospitalized for 2 weeks. My sister in law had a mild case of COVID back in November, but has been dealing with severe GI issues ever since and has had 2 trips to the ER due to those problems. A family friend had COVID back in October, wasn't hospitalized for it, but is a long hauler and can't climb a flight of stairs without being out of breath.

Ok, if the technology is so great then why haven't we used it to create vaccines for other communicable diseases? Why did it need to wait for COVID to come along? Because it has problems that is why. The safety has NOT been established according to the gold standard of how clinical trials should be run.

Now, I do agree we are in a terrible situation and we had to do something. I am okay with people choosing to take part in this experiment if they make the risk assessment for themselves. But in now way should these be forced on people with anything close to a vaccine passport. There are many people that have had COVID and are just fine. We have the statistics to prove this.

 

[tink2424]

The stat I've seen is 1/3 of people who had COVID are long haulers.

Do you mind sharing a link? I have been looking and haven't found anything more than educated guesses. I'm looking for actual data on the numbers so if you have that I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[sabrecmc]

How many long haulers do we actually have? It seems like everyone mentions this as if it is a large amount of cases but I can't find any conclusive evidence of how many actually have this. It seems it may not be as common as people are making it out to be.

The research I have seen so far suggests 10-20%, but it a bit depends on how you define the group as far as what symptoms and what you consider "long-haul". At any rate, it appears so far to be a fairly significant percentage of people who experience ongoing issues that range in severity. Obviously, more information is being gathered, so it is hard to have a definitive answer at this point. Also important to mention that it seems like many do eventually largely recover, but a not-insignificant percent have more severe and long-term issues. While there is some uncertainty about the vaccines, there is also a lot we don't know about this disease, even for those who didn't have symptoms. It's for each of us to do our diligence and make the decision for ourselves.

 

[tink2424]

The research I have seen so far suggests 10-20%, but it a bit depends on how you define the group as far as what symptoms and what you consider "long-haul". At any rate, it appears so far to be a fairly significant percentage of people who experience ongoing issues that range in severity. Obviously, more information is being gathered, so it is hard to have a definitive answer at this point. Also important to mention that it seems like many do eventually largely recover, but a not-insignificant percent have more severe and long-term issues. While there is some uncertainty about the vaccines, there is also a lot we don't know about this disease, even for those who didn't have symptoms. It's for each of us to do our diligence and make the decision for ourselves.

Yeah, I really hope we get some real data on the numbers and also how long these cases last. It is not a phenomenon unique to COVID as it happens with a lot of other diseases but it would be great to know more.

And yes, I VERY MUCH AGREE that everyone should do their own research to know the pros & cons of both getting COVID & getting the vaccine to make an informed decision. That is why it is dangerous to shut down one side of the argument as it doesn't allow people to be informed. It really is a shame as journalism used to give you all the facts and let you decide. Very few actually do this anymore.

 

[Maggie'sMom]

Do you mind sharing a link? I have been looking and haven't found anything more than educated guesses. I'm looking for actual data on the numbers so if you have that I would greatly appreciate it.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-tragedy-of-the-post-covid-long-haulers-2020101521173

 

[princessmommyx3]

Ok, if the technology is so great then why haven't we used it to create vaccines for other communicable diseases? Why did it need to wait for COVID to come along?

One word: money. As nice of an idea as it is that pharmaceutical companies are working for the good of society, they are not. If it is not profitable, they will not do it. The mrna vaccine technology has been sitting on a shelf for decades because until now, a virus had not come along that would have made them a profit. When SARS and MERS came along, there was thought initially that the mrna might be helpful and thus profitable but then those viruses fizzled out and no money was to be made so the research went back on the shelf.

 

[brentm77]

Yeah, I really hope we get some real data on the numbers and also how long these cases last. It is not a phenomenon unique to COVID as it happens with a lot of other diseases but it would be great to know more.

And yes, I VERY MUCH AGREE that everyone should do their own research to know the pros & cons of both getting COVID & getting the vaccine to make an informed decision. That is why it is dangerous to shut down one side of the argument as it doesn't allow people to be informed. It really is a shame as journalism used to give you all the facts and let you decide. Very few actually do this anymore.

It's such a weird disease. My daughter's teenage friend lost his taste before Thanksgiving and he still doesn't have it back. It sounds like a small thing, but he is miserable. It has really hurt his quality of life.

 

[brentm77]

One word: money. As nice of an idea as it is that pharmaceutical companies are working for the good of society, they are not. If it is not profitable, they will not do it. The mrna vaccine technology has been sitting on a shelf for decades because until now, a virus had not come along that would have made them a profit. When SARS and MERS came along, there was thought initially that the mrna might be helpful and thus profitable but then those viruses fizzled out and no money was to be made so the research went back on the shelf.

One of the only good things to come from the pandemic is suddenly we are seeing the huge potential in mRNA vaccines. We will see significant progress with cancers, HIV, the flu, malaria, and so many other diseases in the coming years.

 

[kathi]

Also CLEAR and a company called gogetvax are both working on a secure method of showing that you have been vaccinated and be able to store that proof in a apple or google wallet

I cannot wait for this to be available - it's so upsetting that there is no centralized database or government action on compiling this data. I want to be able to travel outside the country and I will sign up for one of these private services as soon as practicable.

 

[Intr3pid]

So we’ve gone back and forth about what to do and we’ve decided that we are not getting this vaccine regardless. Maybe in ten years when we see how potential autoimmune issues play out. We are not worried about the short term reactions like blood clots or rashes. We are worried about long term damage to the immune system. I do think it is possible that the vaccine is fine, but it is definitely a bit creepy. We’ve had Covid, so we have immunity. Not that we were ever very worried about Covid anyway, 99._% survival rate and all. But really, what gives us pause is the lack of debate. It makes us very uncomfortable that leading doctors who have voiced caution on the vaccine have been silenced. Why? Initially we were actually leaning towards getting it, but we don’t like the inability to discuss potential issues openly. This vaccine changes the definition of vaccine. It is not a regular vaccine. All perspectives on it should be heard. We always get all vaccines otherwise. Flu shot every year etc. But you guys should all be aware that since the vaccine is only under emergency authorization, anyone who gets the vaccine now is actually part of the clinical trials. I personally think it is unconscionable to give it to children at this point. If it was a more deadly disease it might be worse the risk. But this virus is pretty tame in the grand scheme of human existence.

First of all, there are plenty of conspiracy theorists with everything around us. Someone is going to come up with a video to make you believe in their snake oil. Do these 'doctors' have any factual data or research to share that suggests that these vaccines are potentially dangerous? I would actually love to know because I respect the facts.

Let's assume these vaccines carry risks, and these doctors are right. What are the alternatives? Every anti-vaxxer I have come across is also anti-masks, so there goes that protection too. Should we stay unprotected? The stats tell us 400,000 annual excess deaths in the country and about 30% average incidence of long-haul symptoms. We prefer this instead of a vaccine that has a who-knows-in-a-million chance of who-knows-what happening?

Before the vaccination efforts, the US was hitting almost 4,500 COVID deaths per day. Four months on, the daily deaths are down to just 800. In just these 120 days, the vaccines have saved 440,000 US lives! And probably millions of long haulers. So, no, that argument is not being silenced - it just becomes irrelevant if we won't be alive or healthy enough to talk about it.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

very respected doctor with Baylor and Texas A and M

I see that he's a renowned cardiologist, but I'm not sure he has any experience with immunology. With a viral disease I'll take my chances with the latter type doctor.

 

[soniam]

I see that he's a renowned cardiologist, but I'm not sure he has any experience with immunology. With a viral disease I'll take my chances with the latter type doctor.

I could insert a University of Texas at Austin alum comment here

 

[Mousequake]

I see that he's a renowned cardiologist, but I'm not sure he has any experience with immunology. With a viral disease I'll take my chances with the latter type doctor.

He doesn't. Like every doctor associated with the group he hangs out with, no specialty in infectious disease, virology, immunology, or anything related to vaccinations. My wife who does specialize in one of those areas actually spent a decent portion of a recent court hearing debunking some of his work when she was called as an expert witness.

 

[mevelandry]

How many long haulers do we actually have? It seems like everyone mentions this as if it is a large amount of cases but I can't find any conclusive evidence of how many actually have this. It seems it may not be as common as people are making it out to be.

There is definitely enough of them to be studied and to create clinics dedicated to them:

https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...d-19-a-growing-number-in-it-for-the-long-haul