The sad truth

dcentity2000

<font color=red>Simba Cub<br><font color=green>Is
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
10,057
11391570560597ql.gif


Hypocritical. Shameful. Allowed?

The depiction of their Messiah angered them beyond words and drove them to violence on a grand scale. Yet no-one speaks out when they do the same - and worse - to us.

The problem is that there is all too great a temptation to sink to their level - to answer violence with yet more violence, one of the most ancient and brutal concepts outlawed in our modern, civilised world.

Clearly, we cannot and should not mimic their childish actions in return - but what is there that we can do? Withhold financial support? Not really, since then innocents would suffer at our hand, an unacceptable price. Indeed, one could argue that the majority of the trouble was caused by the so called "football mob"; people who tag along on a political note just to cause violence and trouble (a sad fact that has inhibited international football tournaments).

How can we punish, in a humane way, those who give the majority such a bad name? If we leave the actions unheeded, they will surely get worse. Do too much and the problem will surely accelerate even further...

It's a tough one.

[EDIT] The afterthought. We need to look after one another and to protect one another from bullying. At the same time we must stay humane, measured and careful, taking the high road, as it were. That's the balance. Tricky, eh?

I'm sure that certain posters will suggest "all out nuclear war" as the solution. The problem is, that would make the innocent suffer and would give them a real reason to sustain their hatred of us - maybe even give the moderates a reason to turn to arms.



Rich::
 
I've been giving this latest situation a lot of thought. I've tried to imagine how I'd feel if a Muslum drew inflamatory pictures of someone I hold sacred. I imagine I'd be upset but then dismiss it as someone who's ignorant and possibly just wants to start something with me. I certainly wouldn't go burning down government buildings and worse.

To me these are actions of people just looking for trouble. In their eyes injustice has been bestowed upon them and over. Their classic victims who take no responsibility that perhaps some of what they deem injustice they bring upon themselves.

I honestly don't know how change can truly be brought about until this extremist minority is elimated.
 
The afterthought. We need to look after one another and to protect one another from bullying. At the same time we must stay humane, measured and careful, taking the high road, as it were. That's the balance. Tricky, eh?

Unfortunately you are correct. It is very tricky. I fear there is no way to resolve a conflict where one side will not recognize the others right to exist. Those who are absolute and extreme in their views usually cannot be reasoned with. The trick, as you stated, is not punishing a whole culture for the acts of a minority of it's people.
 
Hmmmm......interesting!

The 'problem' here is that Mohammed is not supposed to be deplicted at all! If there is a play or movie about the history or life of Mohammed, he is not to be portrayed by an actor or shown in any way by a substitute.

The point of people of the Jewish faith being portrayed in the way you have provided is of interest!

Human beings are funny in a very non-amusing way! :guilty:
 

It is a very tricky situation, but one that has existed for years. Maybe not this one particular example, but the root of the problem is the same. I'm afraid we can do nothing short of converting to Islam and joining the extremists that will satisfy them. The one thing that really bothers me is that we are expected to ignore their injustices, but the whole world must bow down and respect their point of view. Sorry but I can't do that.
 
MikeB63 said:
It is a very tricky situation, but one that has existed for years. Maybe not this one particular example, but the root of the problem is the same. I'm afraid we can do nothing short of converting to Islam and joining the extremists that will satisfy them. The one thing that really bothers me is that we are expected to ignore their injustices, but the whole world must bow down and respect their point of view. Sorry but I can't do that.
I think several religions are this way....it's either all or nothing. If you are part of "the group", ok, if not....you should be, well, exterminated. The Bible really does not help in this area, either. Sometimes it says we are to love our neighbor and sometimes history supports that God ordered his followers to destroy whole cities, virtually an entire culture! :confused3
 
mtblujeans said:
I think several religions are this way....it's either all or nothing. If you are part of "the group", ok, if not....you should be, well, exterminated. The Bible really does not help in this area, either. Sometimes it says we are to love our neighbor and sometimes history supports that God ordered his followers to destroy whole cities, virtually an entire culture! :confused3
I agree. We even have our own rather extreme factions who feel that anyone not of their faith is evil and will burn. Luckily, the violence is minimal though with only the few anti-abortion zealots who bomb clinics coming to mind.

Is there really a solution to this madness?
 
I find most extremists and hate mongers to usually be hypocritical in one form or another. They either don't see it or they refuse to acknowledge it. The only way to appease them is to become one of them, period. Reasoning with them usually ends in failure.
 
I agree. We even have our own rather extreme factions who feel that anyone not of their faith is evil and will burn. Luckily, the violence is minimal though with only the few anti-abortion zealots who bomb clinics coming to mind.
However, in the case of home-grown religious fanatics, the mainstream will soundly denounce their actions and actively support their apprehension and criminal prosecution. Sadly, this has not been the case in the Muslim world. Sure, the violence is committed by a minority, but the Muslim community is way too quite in vocalizing their opposition to what their radical brethern are doing. And sadly when they do speak out against the actions, all too often the pronouncements contain the "damning but". You know the formula "We are shocked by the loss of the life of innocents in this situation, but..... how can you expect people to act otherwise when The West/Bush/Isreal/Etc. does (fill in the blank)?"

Added... The cartoon at the start of this thread, and it's depiction of the Jewish "blood libel" legend that's accepted in the Arab world bring to mind this little gem:
Turkish movie depicts Americans as savages
Billy Zane, Gary Busey star in Turkey's most-expensive film ever

Thursday, February 2, 2006; Posted: 7:17 p.m. EST (00:17 GMT)

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) -- In the most expensive Turkish movie ever made, American soldiers in Iraq crash a wedding and pump a little boy full of lead in front of his mother.

They kill dozens of innocent people with random machine-gun fire, shoot the groom in the head, and drag those left alive to Abu Ghraib prison -- where a Jewish doctor cuts out their organs, which he sells to rich people in New York, London and Tel Aviv.

Link
The Jewish doctor is played by Busey. Nice job helping to throw gas on the anti-Semitism fire there, Gary!
 
Geoff_M said:
However, in the case of home-grown religious fanatics, the mainstream will soundly denounce their actions and actively support their apprehension and criminal prosecution. Sadly, this has not been the case in the Muslim world. Sure, the violence is committed by a minority, but the Muslim community is way too quite in vocalizing their opposition to what their radical brethern are doing. And sadly when they do speak out against the actions, all too often the pronouncements contain the "damning but". You know the formula "We are shocked by the loss of the life of innocents in this situation, but..... how can you expect people to act otherwise when The West/Bush/Isreal/Etc. does (fill in the blank)?"

Added... The cartoon at the start of this thread, and it's depiction of the Jewish "blood libel" legend that's accepted in the Arab world bring to mind this little gem:The Jewish doctor is played by Busey. Nice job helping to throw gas on the anti-Semitism fire there, Gary!

Another issue with "speaking out" is that there is intimidation about not supporting those causes. Islam, unlike the other main stream religions has not undergone a reformation. I would certainly like to see them as outraged at the mass murder of innocents, the use of children as suicide bombers, etc as they are about a cartoon. Then maybe we would get somewhere. To highlight just how difficult the problem is; When 1400 muslims were drowning in the ferry boat incident, Israel's offers of help were rebuked. They would rather have hundreds die rather than accept help from Jews...and that, from a so called moderate Arab state.
 
I'm wondering where they got all of the Danish flags to burn. I wouldn't even know where to get one. The internet maybe? hmmmmmmm............
 
marymrg said:
I'm wondering where they got all of the Danish flags to burn. I wouldn't even know where to get one. The internet maybe? hmmmmmmm............

I got mine on eBay!

1%20%28260%29.gif

 
Actually, it appears that there was a good deal of stage managing of the current outrage. The publication of the "offensive" cartoons took place last September. Danish Imams made the rounds recently in Muslim countries and passed out the cartoons and effectively "lit the match" on the "cartoon war". I can't help but wonder if they brought a lot of Danish flags with them to leave behind. Ironically, included in their packets were several cartoons (surprise, surprise... some of the most offensive) that were never published in the Danish newspaper.
 
Geoff_M said:
Actually, it appears that there was a good deal of stage managing of the current outrage. The publication of the "offensive" cartoons took place last September. Danish Imams made the rounds recently in Muslim countries and passed out the cartoons and effectively "lit the match" on the "cartoon war". I can't help but wonder if they brought a lot of Danish flags with them to leave behind. Ironically, included in their packets were several cartoons (surprise, surprise... some of the most offensive) that were never published in the Danish newspaper.
:eek:
 
I don't get the outrage.

PPL have been making fun of Jesus for decades.
 
We are all Danes now
Feb 6, 2006
by Jeff Jacoby ( bio | archive | contact )

A Hindus consider it sacrilegious to eat meat from cows, so when a Danish supermarket ran a sale on beef and veal last fall, Hindus everywhere reacted with outrage. India recalled its ambassador to Copenhagen, and Danish flags were burned in Calcutta, Bombay, and Delhi. A Hindu mob in Sri Lanka severely beat two employees of a Danish-owned firm, and demonstrators in Nepal chanted: ''War on Denmark! Death to Denmark!"In many places, shops selling Dansk china or Lego toys were attacked by rioters, and two Danish embassies were firebombed.

It didn't happen, of course. Hindus may consider it odious to use cows as food, but they do not resort to boycotts, threats, and violence when non-Hindus eat hamburger or steak. They do not demand that everyone abide by the strictures of Hinduism and avoid words and deeds that Hindus might find upsetting. The same is true of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mormons: They don't lash out in violence when their religious sensibilities are offended. They certainly don't expect their beliefs to be immune from criticism, mockery, or dissent.

But radical Muslims do.

The current uproar over cartoons of the Muslim prophet Mohammed published in a Danish newspaper illustrates yet again the fascist intolerance that is at the heart of radical Islam. Jyllands-Posten, Denmark's largest daily, commissioned the cartoons to make a point about freedom of speech. It was protesting the climate of intimidation that had made it impossible for a Danish author to find an illustrator for his children's book about Mohammed. Muslims regard any depiction of the prophet as sacrilegious, and no artist would agree to illustrate the book for fear of being harmed by Muslim extremists. Appalled by this self-censorship, Jyllands-Posten invited Danish artists to submit drawings of Mohammed, and published the 12 it received.

Most of the pictures are tame to the point of dullness, especially compared to the biting editorial cartoons that routinely appear in US and European newspapers. A few of them link Mohammed to Islamist terrorism -- one depicts him with a bomb in his turban, while a second shows him in Heaven, pleading with newly arrived suicide terrorists: ''Stop, stop! We have run out of virgins!" Others focus on the threat to free speech: In one, a sweating artist sits at his drawing board, nervously sketching Mohammed, while glancing over his shoulder to make sure he's not being watched. Some make no point at all -- one simply portrays a man walking with his donkey in the desert.

That anything so mild could trigger a reaction so crazed -- riots, death threats, kidnappings, flag-burnings -- speaks volumes about the chasm that separates the values of the civilized world from those in too much of the Islamic world. Freedom of the press, the marketplace of ideas, the right to skewer sacred cows, the ability to disagree with what you say while firmly defending your right to say it: Militant Islam knows none of this. And if the jihadis get their way, it will be swept aside everywhere by the censorship and intolerance of sharia.

Here and there, some brave Muslim voices have cried out against the book-burners. The Jordanian newspaper Shihan published three of the cartoons. ''Muslims of the world, be reasonable," implored Shihan's editor, Jihad al-Momani, in an editorial. ''What brings more prejudice against Islam -- these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras or a suicide bomber who blows himself up during a wedding ceremony in Amman?" But within hours Momani was out of a job, fired by the paper's owners after the Jordanian government threatened legal action.

He wasn't the only editor sacked last week. In Paris, Jacques LeFranc of the daily France Soir was also fired after running the Mohammed cartoons. The paper's owner, an Egyptian Copt named Raymond Lakah, issued a craven and Orwellian statement expressing "regrets to the Muslim community" and offering LeFranc's head as a gesture of ''respect for the intimate beliefs and convictions of every individual." But the France Soir staff defended their decision to publish the drawings in a stalwart editorial. ''The best way to fight against censorship is to prevent censorship from happening," they wrote. ''A fundamental principle guaranteeing democracy and secular society is under threat. To say nothing is to retreat."

Across the continent, nearly two dozen other newspapers have joined in defending that principle. While Islamist clerics proclaim an ''international day of anger" or declare that ''the war has begun," leading publications in Norway, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, Germany, Switzerland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic have reprinted the Danish cartoons. But there has been no comparable show of backbone in America, where (as of Friday) only the New York Sun has had the fortitude to the run some of the drawings.

Make no mistake: This story is not going away, and neither is the Islamofascist threat. The freedom of speech we take for granted is under attack, and it will vanish if it is not bravely defended. Today the censors may be coming for some unfunny Mohammed cartoons, but tomorrow it is your words and ideas they will silence. Like it or not, we are all Danes now.

Jeff Jacoby is an Op-Ed writer for the Boston Globe, a radio political commentator, and a contributing columnist for Townhall.com.
 
Speaking of "free speech", more from the "vocal minority" in Pakistan... and no, it wasn't photoshopped:

20060207Pakistan01.jpg
 


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter
Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom