The Running Thread -- 2022

[steph0808]

July Totals

Running
Miles: 100.33
Time: 17:21:24
Avg HR: 150.8
Avg Pace: 10:28

July was pretty good, and I hit 100 miles by the skin of my teeth. Last week of the month, I skipped a few runs because of vacation, but I was running in the Rocky Mountains, so I consider it "altitude training" compared to my usual PA non-altitude training.

Walking the Dog
Miles: 18.03
Time: 7:34:49

I try to walk our 3yo lab at least 1 mile/day, sometimes 2, but I just started tracking it with a downloaded "hiking" app on my Forerunner 235. I need to get a new watch that has a walking/hiking and swimming functionality built in.


August is off to a rough start - got back from vacation and immediately jumped into dental surgery. Long story short - broke crown last year, had extraction/implant, implant failed, did bone graft, just inserted implant again this week. Fingers crossed that come January, everything is rock solid and ready for a new/fake tooth. I'm really too young for this sh!t.

So, just taking it easy this week and will start building up again through the rest of the month and be ready to start Dopey training in September.

 

[lookingforsunshine]

I need to get a new watch that has a walking/hiking and swimming functionality built in.

I loveee my Garmin Fenix 6s if you need recommendations!

 

[jmasgat]

Long story short - broke crown last year, had extraction/implant, implant failed, did bone graft, just inserted implant again this week. Fingers crossed that come January, everything is rock solid and ready for a new/fake tooth. I'm really too young for this sh!t.

Sorry to hear you have to go through this--I get it. I had a tooth removed, with the subsequent bone build-up, post implant, and crown. I think it took 6-9 months before the whole process was done, but it is a rock solid tooth, and I have a great dentist.
I often wonder about the ads I see for what I will term "instant beautiful teeth". They can't possibly be doing the same process.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Shoe question, and a possible tangential QOTD?

DS1 is running in Brooks Ghost (he was fitted and these felt the best) for the 2nd year (new shoes 2mo ago, this isn't a mileage issue.) THIS year he is complaining that when he does road running that it hurts his legs, so he runs in the grassy shoulder area when possible, which makes me VERY nervous because of ticks, poison ivy, our family history of weak ankles, etc, and it's also become an excuse to not do long runs. Is the a case where it might make sense to get a shoe with more cushion when he (and his XC team) does more road mileage? I am not super excited to keep throwing money at shoes. And because it might come up, we are out of the return window on his Ghosts since we got those in the spring, and then he promptly fractured his pelvis and didn't run much at all until the end of June.


QOTD:
How did you decide on your cushion level for your shoes? Do you were different cushion level shoes for different types of runs/workouts?

 

[FFigawi]

ATTQOTD: I generally do not vary or choose my shoes for different workouts. I tend to run all my longer runs in my trusty Kayanos. The only time I wear my other shoes (Noosa tri) is for short runs off the bike and in sprint triathlons. I plan to buy a pair of Metaspeeds for my IM this fall, and I won't be wearing them for shorter runs either.

 

[camaker]

ATTQOTD: When I started running my PT advised me to wear high cushion shoes because I'm a bigger guy and have a history of knee problems. After that, it was just a matter of figuring out which model had the best combination of cushion and support.

I'm not sure I'd look at too little cushioning as being the cause of his issue, though. I run in Ghosts and they're already a high cushion shoe. I think the Glycerin is the only one Brooks makes with more cushion. From my experience, too much cushioning can cause just as many issues as too little. I started in the Glycerin, but Brooks actually added so much cushioning that they caused leg issues for me. The excess cushion was causing my legs to work harder on each stride during runs. It could be possible that he only notices the issue because the higher pounding, more rhythmic nature of running on the road is leading to more compression during each stride, amplifying the effect of the cushioning. Just another viewpoint to consider.

 

[azrivest]

ATTQOTD: I do. For me personally, varying the shoes I wear for my different runs helps me to avoid injury. Different muscles work slightly differently depending on the shoe. I have about 8-9 different shoes in my rotation right now. For example, I really feel the difference in my long run if I'm using my RC Elite v2 vs Kayanos or Arahis. (But it might also be an excuse to feed my running shoe obsession. )

Agree with @camaker that Brooks Ghost are already cushioned though. More than that and you're looking at the max cushioned shoes.

 

[jmasgat]

Shoe question, and a possible tangential QOTD?

DS1 is running in Brooks Ghost (he was fitted and these felt the best) for the 2nd year (new shoes 2mo ago, this isn't a mileage issue.) THIS year he is complaining that when he does road running that it hurts his legs, so he runs in the grassy shoulder area when possible, which makes me VERY nervous because of ticks, poison ivy, our family history of weak ankles, etc, and it's also become an excuse to not do long runs. Is the a case where it might make sense to get a shoe with more cushion when he (and his XC team) does more road mileage? I am not super excited to keep throwing money at shoes. And because it might come up, we are out of the return window on his Ghosts since we got those in the spring, and then he promptly fractured his pelvis and didn't run much at all until the end of June.

I guess my way to look at this would be to understand what hurts in his legs and why (Former engineer--always wanting to "root cause" the problem!). Given that he is coming off of a pretty major injury that involved his pelvis, I would expect there could be numerous things contributing to leg issues. That combined with him being an adolescent--itself a source of "growing pains"--I would want to eliminate any muscle weakness/tightness/strength issues before/while considering a shoe change.

 

[DopeyBadger]

QOTD:
How did you decide on your cushion level for your shoes? Do you were different cushion level shoes for different types of runs/workouts?

ATTQOTD: I go by what feels good for that type of run. But I've been on all sides of this one over the years.

-When I started, I did all types of runs in the Rides (fast, medium, slow, long, short).

-Then there was a period where I would rotate between three types. Triumphs, Rides, and Kinvaras. The Triumphs (most cushioned) would be for my slow recovery runs, the Rides for my long runs (medium cushioned), and my Kinvaras were for my M Tempo paced workouts and faster (least cushioned of the three). I would try Triumphs on faster stuff, and they just felt sloppy to me. Not snappy enough. I would try Kinvaras on long runs, and they would tear my legs apart (similar to your DS1's description).

-Then the Next% shoe came out. That changed everything for me. Because it was a pretty heavily cushioned shoe, but it wasn't sloppy at pace. It performed well at fast stuff (not curves though) and long runs. There was a period where I ran recovery runs in the Next % too, but I think that led to some ankle issues because of the combo of stack height and cambered streets. So these days I've got a rotation of Next% for long and fast, Rides for recovery runs, and Endorphin Pros for fast on flat (the Pros just don't eat up the hills like the Next% do).

So I've done all three. Not have any different shoes, be a max cushioned only on the slow stuff, or be a max cushioned on the faster stuff.

With that being said, I'm leaning towards @jmasgat's line of questioning. When was DS1's injury, how long was he off for, when did he restart running, and most importantly was he too aggressive with pace/mileage upon his return? For me, I've fallen into the trap of trying to get right back to the fitness level I was, maybe pushing too hard on pace or mileage. Is that possibly the case? In my view, I typically recommend equal time off to equal time return (to double). So if he was off from running for say 8 weeks, then I wouldn't be pushing the pace of mileage for at least 8-16 weeks.

 

[Kerry1957]

Race Report: Dim Sum and Then Some 10K, Chicago

This was the first time I ran this race, and I didn't know the title was going to be prophetic. The race was a fundraiser for the Chinese American Aid Society. The race started on the street, ran under Lake Shore Drive and then looped around down the lakeshore paths. I originally was going to try for a PR but knew earlier in the week that the temps were not going to cooperate. T+D was 161 (91+70) at the finish and not much better at the start. My daughter was also running, and we agreed to run at our own paces.

I thought something was amiss just after mile 2 when there were no mile markers or water stops. A group of runners were heading the opposite direction and they didn't look fast enough to be on mile 4 already. But our pack (about 50+ runners) soldiered on. Around mile 3 we started asking the oncoming runners where the turnaround was and they were replying that they never reached it and just bailed. My group was down to about 20 runners and we soldiered on. Finally about mile 4, I realized that I was much further from the finish that 2 miles and I turned around. I only met a few runners after my turnaround. I ran until I reached 6.2 on my watch and then started walking back to the finish. Although I paused my watch for awhile I still ended up at 8+ miles. I guess that was my "and then some". I never found my way back to the actual course so no water stops for me an a nasty hot day.

My daughter was behind me at the start and her pack of runners were told by some volunteers to turn around at about mile 1.5 and were directed to the 5K course. She finished the 10K with less than 5 miles on her watch. Of the 400ish 10Krunners we guessed about 300 went off course. All in all, a total fail by the race organizers.

I received an apology email from the Sponsors saying that they were aware of "issues with the event planner". I will not run it again, but felt bad for them since their annual fundraiser turned out so poorly, at least from a logistical and PR perspective. This was not their first race but was probably a new event planner. Fortunately my next race is only 3 weeks away.

 

[garneska]

It might be from the marathon thread but here is a good joke.


Whisky on the rocks.

 

[HangWithMerida]

QOTD:
How did you decide on your cushion level for your shoes? Do you were different cushion level shoes for different types of runs/workouts?

I mostly run in ghosts since I am almost exclusively on concrete. I have a pair of Hoka Clifton’s that I use for short recovery runs only (mega cushion). I also have a pair of launch that I use for some of my speed work sessions. Mostly, I try to vary the shoes a little just so my feet and legs are getting a little different challenge from time to time. I tried a pair of glycerins once and they became my recovery shoe because they were so cushioned that they were really hot and I didn’t feel like I was getting any energy return.

 

[Dopey 2020]

Shoe question, and a possible tangential QOTD?

DS1 is running in Brooks Ghost (he was fitted and these felt the best) for the 2nd year (new shoes 2mo ago, this isn't a mileage issue.) THIS year he is complaining that when he does road running that it hurts his legs, so he runs in the grassy shoulder area when possible, which makes me VERY nervous because of ticks, poison ivy, our family history of weak ankles, etc, and it's also become an excuse to not do long runs. Is the a case where it might make sense to get a shoe with more cushion when he (and his XC team) does more road mileage? I am not super excited to keep throwing money at shoes. And because it might come up, we are out of the return window on his Ghosts since we got those in the spring, and then he promptly fractured his pelvis and didn't run much at all until the end of June.


QOTD:
How did you decide on your cushion level for your shoes? Do you were different cushion level shoes for different types of runs/workouts?

I spent so much time trying to get shoes to fit and feel perfectly that I think some stores don’t want to see me ever again. Everyone seemed to have different advice on what I needed (support vs neutral) just based on looking at my gait for a trip across the store. From the start I felt that I needed more cushion than anything as I had been in work boots my entire life and beaten myself up over 30 years of labor, my knees and legs hurt but I wanted to run. Ultimately I went with what my body wanted instead of the experts advice and settled on Mizuno Wave Sky 2 about 7 weeks before my first marathon. Best decision ever, extreme comfort but at a cost of more weight and slower paces. That’s ok because I was able to run comfortably for any distance and then slowly moved away from them on shorter runs. For me it was always Mizuno, lately I like Saucony as well and I now try to keep at least three pairs in rotation, one highly cushioned for slower long runs (Saucony Triumph 18 soon to be Mizuno Sky 5), a basic comfortable pair (Mizuno Wave Rider 25, similar to the Brooks Ghost) for everyday runs, and a lightweight but somewhat cushioned (Saucony Endorphin Speed 2) for speed days and races.
I did end up at a store 45 minutes from me even though there are a couple much closer simply because they seemed more patient and willing to listen, and their return policy is much better.
It can definitely be frustrating looking for that perfect fit, hopefully it works out for him.

 

[Blue Caterpillar]

I have a question about run/walk/run. For training when you are running slower than your goal pace, is it better to run slower during the run segments or insert longer or more frequent walk breaks.

Or does it not matter?

Thanks!

 

[jpeterson]

I have a question about run/walk/run. For training when you are running slower than your goal pace, is it better to run slower during the run segments or insert longer or more frequent walk breaks.

Or does it not matter?

Thanks!

You can mix and match. If running slower make sure you don't run so slow that you start bouncing. That will drain your energy. I run at a comfortable pace and change my ratio as well.

For example: my race pace ratio is a 90/30 but my easy run is a 30/30. I don't find it difficult to hit my pace this way.

 

[Naomeri]

I have a question about run/walk/run. For training when you are running slower than your goal pace, is it better to run slower during the run segments or insert longer or more frequent walk breaks.

Or does it not matter?

Thanks!

I’ve only just started training slower than race pace (it only took me a year to burn out on running race pace ) and for easy runs, I switched my run/walk from 30/30 to 30/45, and I try really hard to run slower. For long runs, I keep the same overall pace as easy runs, but I do 60/60, just to have some variety. Tempo pace runs are still 30/30 for me, but slightly slower than race pace.

 

[GreatLakes]

Shoe question, and a possible tangential QOTD?
QOTD:
How did you decide on your cushion level for your shoes? Do you were different cushion level shoes for different types of runs/workouts?

After reading Mark Cucuzzella's book I decided to go with the least amount of shoe I can for my everyday running shoe. I was running in a Mizzuno Wave Rider with SuperFeet inserts and had been for more than a decade. Mark's contention is that people don't have foot problems because they don't wear a supporting enough shoe, they have foot problems because they wear too much shoe and never let the foot work like it should. If you wear little or no shoe and let the foot work properly it will build up the muscles and many foot problems will go away over time. I have to say my experience has matched what he says 100%.

After reading his book I removed the inserts from my running shoes and started to step down to a shoe with less heal drop and a less supportive sole. I ended up on the Saucony Kinvara and love it. I do have a few different shoes depending on the conditions. They are:

Saucony Kinvara: Every day running and racing over 10K
On Cloudflow: I just have these for winter days when there is snow on the ground. The Kinvara doesn't have much tread so this just keeps me upright.
Mizuno Wave Ekiden: Some track work and races 10K and below
Saucony Peregraine: I have both the standard and ST for the trails. The ST are for really wet and muddy days.

I'd try to find out what exactly your son means by road running hurting his legs. It might be proper soreness from development or it could be actual pain from a worsening issue. He might want to talk to a doctor. You mentioned he fractured his pelvis so it could be related. Sometimes surrounding muscles, ligaments, and joints take over and work a little harder when you have an injury to compensate and this can be especially true for the opposite leg. It could just be some unequal development over the past year that needs to shake itself out.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I have a question about run/walk/run. For training when you are running slower than your goal pace, is it better to run slower during the run segments or insert longer or more frequent walk breaks.

Based on your recent HM, this is what my Daniels/Galloway hybrid calculator suggests for a starting point on pacing:



This assumes an 18:00 min/mile is a comfortable walking pace. If the walk is faster or slower, then let me know and I can change the input. Depending on your style, you could view the Easy/Long run suggestion as a shorter duration than other paces (Option A) or a longer duration than other paces (Option B). Some people are better off with quicker shorter intervals, and others are better at the longer slower intervals. The calculator suggests aiming for a 13:52 min/mile pace during the running section of your Easy/Long run days (with an average pace goal of 14:44). This value (13:52) is equivalent to the pace that I would suggest a continuous runner who is looking to do a faster/shorter long run do their long runs at. It's roughly 9% slower than M Tempo. It should be roughly around a 100% aerobic pace. So by mixing this pace into your run/walk, you're doing the faster end of the continuous LR pacing with walk breaks. Then the duration cap of the long run is a little extended compared to continuous runners.

Like I said, this is a starting point. So from here, I'd give these a try, and then play around with the ratios a bit to settle into something that fits your physiological style best. I have had instances of people who say the running pace for Easy/LR is too slow. It's uncomfortable to run at that pace. Typically we give it a few weeks of a good try, and then if we can't make it happen, then we do some testing to find their "as slow as you can run comfortably pace" and go from there. Sometimes the ASAYCRCP is just a little slower and easy to work with, and sometimes that pace is much quicker than I'd like and we get creative on how to keep easy runs easy.

Here are two other options with someone who has a faster or slower comfortable walking pace:

 

[lookingforsunshine]

Does anyone live in or near Chicago? My Olympic triathlon is there at the end of the month and I’m wondering if I can expect anything weather-wise. I am very nervous about heat and humidity which we have been dealing with in central Ohio, but I’m curious what effect Lake Michigan has on that.

Edit: spelling. I am an English teacher and appalled at myself.

 

[GollyGadget]

Does anyone live in or near Chicago? My Olympic triathlon is there at the end of the month and I’m wondering if I can expect anything weather-wise. I am very nervous about heat and humidity which we have been dealing with in central Ohio, but I’m curious what affect Lake Michigan has on that.

I don’t live in or near Chicago but I’ve been several times. You can expect it to be warm and humid. If your triathlon is along the lake you may feel a nice lake breeze but otherwise the temp will likely be similar to what you’re experiencing in Ohio. This is all said with the disclaimer that it is the Midwest do you might end up with amazing weather or a storm, or both. You just never really know.