The REAL religion?....

[troobabiee7]

And if people REALLY believed that being good could earn your way into Heaven, the world would not be as it is today. People would really try much harder than we as a whole do, don't you think? The pixie dust on this board would be floating everywhere in our real lives because we would be judged on our goodness. I cannot believe that people really think they're being good enough in this life to be judged by God for it. JMHO, of course.

There are plenty of people who believe that being good gets you into Heaven, but like you said, "good" is subjective. To one person "good" could be feeding all the starving kids and housing all the homeless, and to someone else "good" could be simply not committing a crime or hurting someone else. I believe that everyone has their own version of Heaven (kind of like in "The Lovely Bones" by Alice Sebold, which was a fascinating book, by the way) and they'll all get there as long as they try their best. It's all subjective though so everyone has to just live their lives according to their own beliefs and hope for the best

I also personally believe that much of the Bible was a means of the church gaining power. "Do what we say and live according to our beliefs, and you'll be saved." It was way of gaining absolute power, and putting fear into the hearts of anyone who disobeyed. Once the Jews got too powerful for the "others" liking, along came the New Testament. Again, just my beliefs from a more historic perspective.

 

[jimmiej]

That's exactly what I'll never understand. My grandparents are pretty religious Roman Catholics and believe the same, but it's not something I'd ever be able to believe. I'm in the "faith without the Bible" category. I truly believe that all good people will go somewhere good, regardless of their religious beliefs - I'm more of a believer in "salvation through works." I've taken several World Religions classes and its fascinating to learn about the different beliefs, because essentially everyone just wants to feel happy, loved and safe, just in their own ways. And to think how much less violence there would be in the world if everyone could just respect each others beliefs, which I'll admit is hard when someone's beliefs directly target random others just for being who they are or believing something different. I'll say it again, it's all pretty interesting!

Do you believe God can tolerate sin in His presence? If I'm understanding your beliefs, He would have to.

jimmie, I am not sure that I believe the Jews will be saved totally through the old covenant. I do believe that because the Jews did not accept Jesus as Messiah thatHe opened it for all people. Now, to me, that will only last for a time (the last days--which began after Jesus died and will end when we are taken and the Holy Spirit is no longer here). I believe that during this time, in which we now live, that God has put the Jews ''on hold" and that He will "get back to them" at an appointed time. Then I think God will continue His intial dealings with them. I have no idea what he has in store for them at that time. Again, this is just me and there may be no one else here who will agree with this thought on the topic. I would not advise anyone to "hang their hat" on my beliefs about this topic.I think this is Biblical, from daniel and is more complicated than I can type out.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sorry if I misrepresented your views. I've heard this viewpoint before & it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Buckalew11]

That's exactly what I'll never understand. My grandparents are pretty religious Roman Catholics and believe the same, but it's not something I'd ever be able to believe. I'm in the "faith without the Bible" category. I truly believe that all good people will go somewhere good, regardless of their religious beliefs - I'm more of a believer in "salvation through works." I've taken several World Religions classes and its fascinating to learn about the different beliefs, because essentially everyone just wants to feel happy, loved and safe, just in their own ways. And to think how much less violence there would be in the world if everyone could just respect each others beliefs, which I'll admit is hard when someone's beliefs directly target random others just for being who they are or believing something different. I'll say it again, it's all pretty interesting!

While you and I disagree, I think it is good that you have thought this through and feel peace about it. I personally think it is the biggest decision one makes in this lifetime. I'd rather someone know what they believe, why they believe it etc. than someone just blow it off.

I think if you search and find the source of what you believe in and it guides you in whatever direction than you have to be 100% sure of it.

People who do not believe the Bible have no use for it and its Words. The Bible is my guide, it is my most valued possession. I think it contains the Word of God and I think shows us how to live while here and how to be with God (without having doubts and wondering "if") in death. jimmiej always uses scripture to back up his beliefs. Poeple really hate that, but it is where he gets his beliefs. I, for one, do not give a flip what "he thinks" or "wants to believe"--give me some scripture, back it up--that is the way I am. I am this way for a reason. My thoughts would be very different from God's. I'd create a lot of second chances for people, I'm sure.
Some people use different sources to get their beliefs from. That is their choice. I disagree with it but they are free to choose.

 

[Buckalew11]

There are plenty of people who believe that being good gets you into Heaven, but like you said, "good" is subjective. To one person "good" could be feeding all the starving kids and housing all the homeless, and to someone else "good" could be simply not committing a crime or hurting someone else. I believe that everyone has their own version of Heaven (kind of like in "The Lovely Bones" by Alice Sebold, which was a fascinating book, by the way) and they'll all get there as long as they try their best. It's all subjective though so everyone has to just live their lives according to their own beliefs and hope for the best

I also personally believe that much of the Bible was a means of the church gaining power. "Do what we say and live according to our beliefs, and you'll be saved." It was way of gaining absolute power, and putting fear into the hearts of anyone who disobeyed. Once the Jews got too powerful for the "others" liking, along came the New Testament. Again, just my beliefs from a more historic perspective.

My DD and I were briefly talking about this tonight. To me, heaven would be a lot like WDW , to her, it would be our local college and to DH it would entail football, I think. However, that is not what I think heaven will be like at all. I think Heaven is a creation of God for His Glory, not ours. Feel free to disagree. I will not be comfortable "hoping for the best" though. Biblically, we can know assurance of our salvation and forver is a long, long time. I will not let it happen by chance. JMO.

I look at the Bible the exact opposite from that. I find it to be very freeing of stiff, strict, stringent rules. I think it is that way for all people-- Jews or not. Again, JMO.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sorry if I misrepresented your views. I've heard this viewpoint before & it makes a lot of sense.

No worries. I did not elaborate because it is very new for me and hard to put into words. It all comes from Daniel though.

 

[Buckalew11]

I'm fascinated and interested in this conversation...

First, kudos to all of you for being so respectful. This thread could have gotten nasty but it appears to be a frank and positive conversation about religion...

Second, please continue! I was raised without religion (not baptized, not atheist, nuttin') and have been on a spiritual quest for most of my life to better understand religious teachings.

I don't believe in one true religion - I have a hard time believing any one group is right when dealing with something as personal as a relationship with God.

I do not want you to think you are ebing ignored. You are not. I think it is great that you are on a spiritual quest. As I am sure you have read here, I think everyone should search their hearts, search scripture, seek God.
I'd have a bigger problem with all ways are the right way than one way (through Christ) is the right way but that is just me. I think God is a God of order and to say anything goes would be, well, just weird to me. I do respect your belief. It is a very popular one!

 

[Buckalew11]

I'm turning in...I've been flappin' my jaws on this thread all evening. I'm sure everyone will be happy to see me say ''goodnight".

 

[jimmiej]

I also personally believe that much of the Bible was a means of the church gaining power. "Do what we say and live according to our beliefs, and you'll be saved." It was way of gaining absolute power, and putting fear into the hearts of anyone who disobeyed. Once the Jews got too powerful for the "others" liking, along came the New Testament. Again, just my beliefs from a more historic perspective.

Nowhere does the NT say that. Rather, it says Trust in Jesus & you will be saved.

 

[jimmiej]

I'm turning in...I've been flappin' my jaws on this thread all evening. I'm sure everyone will be happy to see me say ''goodnight".

Same here!

 

[alizesmom]

I, too, am impressed with the civility shown on this thread. Kudos to all. I believe in being saved through Jesus Christ's sacrifice. I respect that all others have the right to the faith they choose but that doesn't mean I agree with their choice. One thing I believe is that we try to "humanize" God. We expect Him to abide by the same rules as we do and I don't think He does. We are not His equals. Am I right or wrong? Obviously I believe I am right but the answer for all of us lies on the other side of death.

 

[PaulaSB12]

Here's what the Bible teaches. No one is "good". All are sinners. The only way to be re-united to God the Father is through a blood sacrifice, i.e. a life for a life. Before Jesus, that was accomplished through the blood of animals (Leviticus 17). Jesus was the final & perfect blood sacrifice (Hebrews 9). One most only accept & believe that to gain eternal life.

At that point, that person's name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 21). When a believer stands before God's judgement seat, God CANNOT see their sin. He will not remember it (Isaiah 43). That person will appear righteous before God.

By contrast, a good person (by human standards) who rejects Jesus, when standing before God on the day of judgement, will appear sinful. God cannot tolerate sin in His presence (Isaiah 59). That person will be sent to Hell (Matthew 25).



There are some that believe that Jews will still be under the old covenant, given through Moses. Personally, I believe Jesus brought a new covenant (Hebrews 8). Like everyone else, Jews must accept or reject Jesus.

So some one as evil as Hitler gets in because they are christian and some one who has lived a life of virtue gets sent to hell because they are not that doesn't seem to be a just god to me.

 

[bicker]

There are those like Brenda that believe the Jews will be held to the original covenant.

Each person can establish their own covenant with God:

"All humans are equal centers of awareness of the Universe and Nature... Every individual has direct access through perception, emotion and meditation to ultimate reality, which is the Universe and Nature. There is no need for mediation by priests, gurus or revealed scriptures... "

 

[sunlver]

I think that if you believe and put into action, Love God with all your heart,all your mind and all your soul, then it doesn't matter what faith you follow, you're going to Heaven because you lived a good life.

I totally agree

 

[air]

I personally believe that there is no "true" religion. I think religions were created to give the follower security, give them morals, and something to look forward to in their life. I also believe there is no God.

 

[Tinks]

I'm half Muslim and half Catholic (if you believe that religion is inherited rather than chosen). I was baptised as a baby, but my younger brother wasn't. For junior high, my parents sent me to a Catholic school to avoid some bad things at the public one. On the first day of religion class, the nun announced that everyone who wasn't baptised was going to H***. I was so shocked that this woman who didn't know my father or brother was telling me what was going to happen to them in the afterlife, no matter how good they were in this life! Strangely, this nun had a sign hanging in her classroom that read, "Religion is what we do with the presence of God." That always sounded very accepting of different faiths to me .

I would just like to share with you what my cousin's husband, who is a minister shared: when Jesus was hanging on the cross, there hung two thieves on either side of Him. One mocked Him. The other rebuked the "mocker" and said "this man has done no wrong. We deserve to die for our crimes, but He is innocent. Jesus, remember me when you come into Your kingdom."

Jesus told that thief, "Surely you will be with me today in Paradise."

It's highly unlikely that thief was baptized.

So that is my response to the whole Baptism debate. It is your Faith that saves you, not the rules of a Church. And yes, I do believe it is Jesus who saves.

Hope that helps.

 

[Amlee]

No Amlee, I did not mean anything about you--you are just like me, curious about it all. I like to talk about it and I have read you before and enjoy talking with you.
I'm just saying how dare members of a church or a minister question who can or cannot take the Holy Communion. That is my beef. If someone takes it and they should not be taking it, that is strictly between them and God IMHO.

Oh I knew you weren't talking about me. I have to agree with you completely.

 

[Amlee]

For me, it is the difference between NOT what I do for God but what He did for me.

My outlook on "being good": How good? Say you feed all the starving children and I do not but I am a still "good". Why would I be rewarded as you are? (with heaven) Was I "good enough"?
Sure, God knows hearts and knows we were both good and could judge accordingly but would it be fair to say, 'good enough, not good enough, good enough, not good enough"? I think we are all capable of the same amount of goodness. So, if you set the standard, your standard would be set very high. Could I reach that standard? You betcha--if I tried and gave it my all. And so could everyone else who tried hard enough. If my "good" was the set standard, then mine would be much easier to reach than yours.I don;t think it'd be fair to give everyone their own standard. We could all be better.

And if people REALLY believed that being good could earn your way into Heaven, the world would not be as it is today. People would really try much harder than we as a whole do, don't you think? The pixie dust on this board would be floating everywhere in our real lives because we would be judged on our goodness. I cannot believe that people really think they're being good enough in this life to be judged by God for it. JMHO, of course.

I just love the people that only have the "Christian Good" on Sunday or around certain people. I just want to yell GOD works 24/7 and year around. Not just on Sunday and around certain people.

I do believe that good people regardless of their belief make it to a peaceful place. Because there are such people out there.

That's exactly what I'll never understand. My grandparents are pretty religious Roman Catholics and believe the same, but it's not something I'd ever be able to believe. I'm in the "faith without the Bible" category. I truly believe that all good people will go somewhere good, regardless of their religious beliefs - I'm more of a believer in "salvation through works." I've taken several World Religions classes and its fascinating to learn about the different beliefs, because essentially everyone just wants to feel happy, loved and safe, just in their own ways. And to think how much less violence there would be in the world if everyone could just respect each others beliefs, which I'll admit is hard when someone's beliefs directly target random others just for being who they are or believing something different. I'll say it again, it's all pretty interesting!

I have a problem with the Bible it's self. I view it as a prejudice book. It was written by men. Their prejudice beliefs and thoughts are smeared through out the Bible. You add in the the King James remix and later version, both smeared with other prejudice. I just find it hard to follow.

 

[kellyg403]

Wow, I was really worried about posting this question. I am so glad it became a discussion and not a debate!

I truly thank all of you who gave scripture based examples along with your discussion. I really am going to try harder to get to know the bible and the scriptures. I remember the basics, but I am hard pressed to quote from scripture my beliefs and why.

I also have a difficult time with the church deciding who can and can't attend. I believe strongly that our personal relationship with God is just that. In my search of other religions, I did discard some that I felt were just not my style. I did have some meetings with JW, my sdd is one and while I understand what they are trying to do, I just don't agree with the setup. I do think in the end I don't think there is one true religion just a true relationship with the Father. Whatever faith/church/group brings you the comfort you seek in your quest to reach Paradise/Heaven and eternal life is the one.

Thanks again for all the interesting replies.

Kelly

 

[Amlee]

Let me also add, I view religion as a way to control people. From the start modern day Christianity was used to control people. I don't believe that you have to be a member of a certain faith to get to heaven. I do think you have to believe in God. I do think you have to try and live a good life. We are human and to live a good life every day isn't possible for us. That is why we pray for understanding and forgiveness. I don't believe that a person has to attend church to be close to God. I view God's earth as his true church and that we are all members of his church. That our actions here on earth decided if we make it to heaven. Not some book that has been picked over and gone through.

But then again, I could be wrong.

I have a friend who has an interesting theory. She has experimented with many different religions. Her view on the "non believers", is that God will taken them in because they are his lost children.

 

[jimmiej]

So some one as evil as Hitler gets in because they are christian and some one who has lived a life of virtue gets sent to hell because they are not that doesn't seem to be a just god to me.

Hitler may have claimed to be Christian, but his actions strongly suggest otherwise. Just saying you're a Christian or attending a Christian church doesn't make you one.

Are you aware that Moses was a murderer? King David was too. The Apostle Paul participated in the torture & stoning of Christians. Do you believe these pillars of the Bible were redeemed? God can & will forgive if we are TRULY repentant.

 

[kellyg403]

Hitler may have claimed to be Christian, but his actions strongly suggest otherwise. Just saying you're a Christian or attending a Christian church doesn't make you one.

Are you aware that Moses was a murderer? King David was too. The Apostle Paul participated in the torture & stoning of Christians. Do you believe these pillars of the Bible were redeemed? God can & will forgive if we are TRULY repentant.

Yes, I agree. The relationship between the person and God is really the only thing that counts. Only God knows our true heart in these matters. I can say and look like I am doing the right thing but without a pure heart I don't think it really matters. That no "religion" is going to place you in Heavan/Paradise, you and your relationship with God will.

I think its interesting though that there are religions that do think they are the true one. My sdd, who is a JW, does not use the same bible as I do and some of the scriptures have been interpeted differently. I don't mind her religion because that is what she and her family chose to believe and what makes them happy. We had a discussion recently about how really because we are not JW, technically they are not supposed to interact with us because we are immoral. But, now they are becoming more lenient in some congregations with families that divorce etc. Its not something they are supposed to advertise but not as frowned upon or something another witness can bring to the elders and have you excommunincated for (not sure if what they call it, can't remember what word she used). I found that interesting for some reason. I didn't realize how strict of a religion it was until I started discussing with her.

Kelly