The 'Planning Backlash'

[JanaDee]

Planning worked well for me, though it did stress me out. I can't compare to pre-FP as the last time I was there was before all that.

I overheard some other guests complaining to people in their parties that they'd been in the park for 3 or 4 hours and didn't ride a single ride yet, and I could see how that could happen with no planning. Imagine coming in at 10am, after sleeping in a bit, coming to the first ride and seeing a 45 minute wait. Guests say, "Heck with that, there must be something shorter ahead." They get to the next attraction, 60 minute wait, the move on, next one is 90 minutes, so they decide to cut their losses and head back the first which is now at 90 too.

On the other hand, I woke my family at 5:15am, got to EMH rope drop, rode tons of rides before 10am with little to no wait, had FP kicking it when it started to get busy, got additional FP as we used others up, went to filler attractions, stayed late each day, and squeezed every last drop out of our time there. Was it tiring? Heck yeah, it took a week to recuperate from our vacation, but it was well worth it. I would have been ticked if I was a part of the above party, spent loads of money, and felt like we did nothing but walk among crowds of people.

A Disney vacation takes planning; it's the nature of the beast. Some like it, some don't. If the parks are going to be enjoyed to the fullest, it's imperative to plan.

We went at peak time over Christmas vacation with the expectation that we'd not fit a whole lot in, but we did everything we wanted (often more than once) and lots that we hadn't planned on. We could be somewhat spontaneous- character meet & greet, for example- while still implementing plans. Most attractions had less than a 20 minute wait for us due to our planning, many less than that, and only one took 30 min. (due to being in a long wheelchair line, with a FP, at TSMM)

I don't get up at 5:15am in my regular every-day life. There is no way on God's green earth I am getting up that early on what is supposed to be a vacation.

 

[JimmyV]

I don't mind uber planning, I plan every trip we take and probably put the same effort in. My problem is WDW's clunky and inefficient way they do thing. You want me to book ADR's at 180+10 some of which impossible to change at 180+9 and book my FP's at 60 days and then you change your schedule/closing times after that...add to that a website that is glitchy at best and WDW can be an extremely frustrating vacation to plan. That is why people are ADR hoarders. I think it should be the same reservation time for everything so you know what is going on and don't have to play press your luck at the 60 day mark hoping for no whammies where your only available FP for rides you really want are on days you have ADR's in different parks. There are just too many moving parts at Disney that are totally reliant on the other part to have them open up at such different times. So that is my thing...open all reservation systems at the same time.

I agree with this. The more things that can (and have to) be planned in advance increases the complexity and that complexity compounds when you have different deadlines. I liked the old days when Priority Seating had a 60 day window. Park hours were more certain. Putting a puzzle together is a lot easier when the entire picture on the box cover is revealed all at once rather than in phases. I'd like to see all pre-planning done at the 30 day mark for onsite guests. Then, anyone who maps out their schedule half a year in advance only to have their plans dashed due to operational changes has no one to blame but themselves.

 

[Suvadoo]

Partially, yes. The WDW Resort is "different" once one factors in the Resorts, pools, Water Parks, restaurants, night life and overall maintenance and upkeep of the property. All of these things absolutely separate WDW from "an amusement park". But if we are being honest with ourselves, during the period of time that we are in the Magic Kingdom, or DHS, we are in an amusement park. Period. I know of no legitimate definition that makes "better theming", cleaner sidewalks, happier employees or the presence of Disney characters separating factors that differentiate Disney's parks from "amusement parks". That is exactly what they are. Nothing more and nothing less. The fact that many people (including probably a majority here) have been bitten by the Disney Bug and are obsessed with the place, returning over and over again does nothing to change the skeletal fact that the Magic Kingdom and DHS are amusement parks. At Six Flags, you strap yourself in to a seat on a high tower; the seats rise to a couple hundred feet above the surface; the ride releases and you plummet quickly toward the ground before the ride mechanism halts your descent and you head upwards again to do it all over again. Same thing happens at Tower of Terror. It's just that the Tower itself is so much cooler than the ride mechanism at Six Flags. But to suggest that somehow the really cool Hollywood Tower Hotel makes DHS something other than an amusement park is just silly. Same goes for Dumbo. Every Six Flags has a similar ride. Same with Space Mountain. Every amusement park has roller coasters. Placing the coaster in an enclosed building does not transform the Magic Kingdom into "an entirely different animal". The separation of Disney's parks from Busch Gardens and Universal grows smaller every day. We might like Disney's parks more. But to suggest that they are in a different category is self-evaluative and self-fulfilling.

The "entirely different animal" comes from, as you say, the week-long investment of time and money and the other entertainment opportunities that are presented outside the gates of the parks. So while a trip to WDW is far more than a trip to an amusement park, your day at the MK is nothing more and nothing less than a trip to an amusement park. So while prior posters such as the one you quoted are lamenting the fact that "going to an amusement park should not be so complicated", what they are referring to is their time at the parks themselves. I think it is absolutely fair to say that one's day from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. riding amusement rides should not be so complicated and should not require such extreme planning. But that is not the same thing as saying "a trip to WDW should not be so complicated or require such extreme planning." Whether the rest of the time spent at WDW doing things other than going to the parks requires such planning is open to debate and the subject of another topic.

As the person who was quoted by the OP, thank you for understanding what I was trying to say. I absolutely adore trip planning of any kind and to any destination. For each day, I have an itinerary so that we don't miss out on my family's must do's. But my itineraries never include appointment times for each destination or meal, unless it's some type of prepaid tour. It used to be the same for our WDW vacations.

 

[mom2rtk]

I think part of the disconnect here on the DIS is that everyone defines "planning" differently.

Some put together a notebook complete with what time they intend to do each ride. Some make ADRs but wing it the rest of the time. For me, planning is more like researching. I like to have all the information in my head when we get to the parks. I like to know which lands tend to busy first, which rides clear out later in the day, what the best time is to eat when I don't have an ADR. I like to know as much as I can about what to expect when we are in the park. BUT...... I don't want to be committed to much at all. I prefer to make our decisions on the ground as we go throughout the day.

 

[nugov2]

I planned our trip last summer vacation after WDW the year before. We did a lake house/Smoky Mountains vacation where we stayed in a hotel to do Dollywood for 2 days in the middle. I tried to book cabanas and q bots, boat rentals all about 5 months out and basically got laughed at in every phone call. I couldn't even book the stuff at Dollywood(think it was more like 4 months out I could do the Q bot and Cabana). I just think most places do not require a 6 month lead. I still have no problem with WDW having that big of a lead, but again open everything that early and hold 10% back for a release date maybe 30 days out to give late vacationers an option. I just think there has to be something better than what they have set up.

When we were trying to get Tomorrowland terrace back in our June 2013 they released it 60 days out( I think, maybe it was 90) and I had to book BOG for our two MK days until I could figure what day I could snag the dessert party. There would be so much less of this is everything opened at the same time.

 

[Laketravis]

I echo JimmyV's very articulate comments.

I like to plan. I find myself planning more and more each time we visit WDW.

And yet each time, I feel like I derive less in return.

Why do I feel that way? Because in the end, I can't help but look at what it was I performed all that planning for. A 50 second ride in an amusement park? Some would call that obsessive compulsive behavior.

That's why in another thread I referred to Disney's accomplishments in these areas as an "almost Pavlovian feat". I was immediately torn to threads for saying that, accused of referring to people as dogs, but the fact is I truly admire that they have taken something that did not exist before (reserving an amusement park ride months in advance) and turn it into a potentially satisfying and strong stimulus.

But just because I admire it doesn't mean I'm blind to what it is. And that is behavorial modification. And I wonder how successful that will be long term.

 

[mom2rtk]

I planned our trip last summer vacation after WDW the year before. We did a lake house/Smoky Mountains vacation where we stayed in a hotel to do Dollywood for 2 days in the middle. I tried to book cabanas and q bots, boat rentals all about 5 months out and basically got laughed at in every phone call. I couldn't even book the stuff at Dollywood(think it was more like 4 months out I could do the Q bot and Cabana). I just think most places do not require a 6 month lead. I still have no problem with WDW having that big of a lead, but again open everything that early and hold 10% back for a release date maybe 30 days out to give late vacationers an option. I just think there has to be something better than what they have set up.

When we were trying to get Tomorrowland terrace back in our June 2013 they released it 60 days out( I think, maybe it was 90) and I had to book BOG for our two MK days until I could figure what day I could snag the dessert party. There would be so much less of this is everything opened at the same time.

I really think that holding things back is just a shell game. I would love it if they would pick one day though and release FPs and ADRs (including dessert parties) all at once. I don't blame you one bit for holding an extra BOG you didn't intend to use. It's what this system invites.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Yes, people, another FP+ related cluster......um, discussion. If you don't like the noise, find another thread!

I lifted this from another thread and thought it might be interesting to discuss. No intention to pick on the person who said it, as it's indicative of what a lot of people say in the myriad of FP+ threads.



Yes, I recognize there are many other reasons why people might not like FP+, but there seem to be many people who dislike FP+ because it forces them to plan out their vacation and hold to a schedule.

My first observation on the quote above relates to the amount of planning required to 'visit an amusement park'. I, for one, certainly don't consider a trip to WDW a 'visit to an amusement park'. Sure, for locals it may be, but is it really just that for the majority of the people on these boards?

For me a visit to an amusement park is a day at Six Flags Great Adventure. You go in the morning, drop your $15 to park and $60 or whatever to get in, drop another $100 if you want to procure the ability to not wait in all the long lines, and you go about your day. If I get the FlashPass and buy some cheap food I've invested maybe $250 and 12 hours.

A visit to WDW, for most, is an entirely different animal. You are generally investing a week (maybe more, maybe less), staying in a hotel, buying airfare, possibly driving long distances, eating some nicer meals maybe, swimming in some pools, maybe seeing a show and, yes, attending some of the best, and most crowded, theme parks in the world. A family of four staying a week in cheaper accommodations is going to drop at least $4,000 give or take, but could spend as much as $10,000 or more. Larger families and up go the $$$. Is that just 'a visit to an amusement park'?

To me that is an important question that gets to the heart of the whole planning dilemma debate. Before I go on, yes.....there are those who will go anywhere and wing it. Drive across the U.S. without a plan, backpack across Europe, etc., etc. I applaud those adventurers if that is what works for them. However, I suspect they may be in the minority. For most of the rest of us, investing limited vacation time and precious resources, when you take a non-WDW vacation that cost $5,000 to $10,000 (for many a large % of their disposable income) or more don't you do some research and planning?

Heck, we are fortunate enough to have just booked a trip to Hawaii (Aulani, so not a complete break from Disney ). Between airline miles and vacation club points it won't be too much out of pocket for accommodations and airfare, but a trip like that for a family of 5 from NY is a $12,000 vacation, not including food and excursions/activities. Sure, we will spend a lot of relaxing beach time, but I'm quite certain I will spend a heck of a lot more time researching and planning things we are going to do on the islands, so that we get the most out of a once in a lifetime trip, than I've ever spent making ADRs and FP+ reservations. Wouldn't most people?

Given that many people invest quite a bit in a WDW vacation, many of those trips being 'once in a lifetimes', should WDW be any different? I don't think so, and that's why, for me, I don't get the 'Planning Backlash'. Is it really that onerous, unusual or unreasonable to have to spend a few hours planning and reserving stuff to do for something like that?

For me---

I have gone to Disney in some kind of regular basis since 1980/81 when we went and stayed at Fort Wilderness. Back when there was only ONE park.

I went in 1986 on a school field trip for 2 days at EPCOT--we booked dining on the video phones!

And as the years progressed, I went more often and certainly even way more often as an adult.

So my planning today is much different than a first timer would be or even a regular who didn't start going until the 2000s. I spent my youth reading all the publications my mom would order from calling 407-WDISNEY. So I feel like I know of well enough as someone who is local to NYC and may pop in for the day.
Put it this way--over 35 years, I have stayed at ALL WDW resorts or resorts with DVC except AOA. We pretty much know our way around. It did feel weird living out of state for 4.5 years as I felt so out of the loop. But now we are back and it just feels the same--back with an old friend.


So I don't plan even week long vacations to the degree and detail of others, since I consider WDW a one stop shop. But I totally see why it is necessary for others. At the same time I don't get the "requires more planning than ever before" comments. We found that it requires, AT THE MOST, the same amount as before--which for is not very much at all.

I do see why others might though--because you spend a lot of money, you want to make the most of it. In fact--when we lived out of state and came in October 2012, I planned way more than we usually would because we were on the book for expensive tickets, has no park hoppers and wanted to be sure we didn't miss anything we wanted. And this was back when FP- was still there. I Turku believe that FP+ would have been better for us back then. But on either system, we do rope drop and go with the flow for the most part--even with what we do schedule.

We have done 2 week trip to England, Wales, and France and I did spend more time planning that than a Disney vacation because it 1) was new to me, 2) involved finding accomodations in 3 different countries, 3) involved rental car and planning routes to ensure we would make our destinations on time, 4) had me finding what we would actually do, and more!

We also did a 2 week trip to Hawaii that requires planning. Not as much as flying overseas, but still quite a bit more than we would do for Disney. But ahain, that was because we has never been there.


But one thing in common--we don't vacation with a strict schedule. Yeah, we might plan to beat crowds and plan around that, but we don't plan every minute of our day. My husband would not like that and once we were off schedule for any reason--neither would I. I don't feel that FP+ is much if a conflict as a result. We will not be slaves to it and we will move, skip, or do whatever if something else floats our boat.

But I do agree--I don't think WDW should be treated as this anomaly vacation destination where planning is never required. That is not realistic. I do think Disney gave folks more control to do just that. They are welcome to use or not use as they see fit. Don't want a day full of appts--no problem! It is not a condition of admission.

Remember all those Vacation Plannig Videos? We never watched them. We has no need. When out of state, we finally did watch one because we missed Disney. It was a tool that Disney offered. But like anything else, usage of that tool was not compulsory.

 

[anniemae]

I disagree. There are so many experiences that consistently have waits of less than twenty minutes, and even certain popular rides like Splash Mountain often are that short too (especially when it's cold out.) I went at a fairly busy time on my last trip, and I totally could have winged most of what we did, other than 7DMT and Anna and Elsa because I wouldn't want to wait in those lines. Oh and eating at BOG definitely needed advanced planning, but I could have skipped that too.

When we went in the summer, most rides were at least 40 mins. Some of the less popular rides in the past, like pirates, peter pan etc. were even longer. Heck Small world even had a wait. We don't go to Disney often, so we wanted to ride the ones the kids were excited about, TT, Soarin, 7DMT, TSMM etc. These were consistently 90 mins plus wait times. No way we can wait 1 1/2 to 2 hours for a ride with two little ones. If it were DH and I maybe. We really didn't want to to figment and the land over and over, which had the 20 min wait times.

If we did rope drop, we may have been able to avoid lines, but we are not rope drop people. We are NOT getting up at the crack of dawn of vaca. Different strokes for different folks, I know some are excited to get "up and at em" but we are not. This is my point, if you are not an uber-planner you are at a disadvantage. We don't like to plan out every minute of every day months in advance, some do. For those that do, Disney is a great vaca, for those that don't, you have to have the attitude that you will wait in lines, not get to ride the headliners without fp etc. Not bad, just the way it is IMO.

 

[Mikie]

I echo JimmyV's very articulate comments.

I like to plan. I find myself planning more and more each time we visit WDW.

And yet each time, I feel like I derive less in return.

Why do I feel that way? Because in the end, I can't help but look at what it was I performed all that planning for. A 50 second ride in an amusement park? Some would call that obsessive compulsive behavior.

That's why in another thread I referred to Disney's accomplishments in these areas as an "almost Pavlovian feat". I was immediately torn to threads for saying that, accused of referring to people as dogs, but the fact is I truly admire that they have taken something that did not exist before (reserving an amusement park ride months in advance) and turn it into a potentially satisfying and strong stimulus.

But just because I admire it doesn't mean I'm blind to what it is. And that is behavorial modification. And I wonder how successful that will be long term.

I get what you mean, but a more "glass is half full" way of looking at it is that you did all the planning for the elimination of at least 3 hour-long waits. . . And if your planning entailed learning about and implementing Rope Drop strategy, then you probably eliminated at least another few hours of waiting, and if your planning involved ADRs you eliminated another potential wait and/or ate at a more desirable time and place. . . Not just one 50-second ride.

Totally agree that Disney is no place for someone trying to conquer an OCD problem, though! And I didn't see the other thread you referenced, but even as one of the "dogs" in question, I take no offense at you calling it like it is - behavior modification that I get some benefit from as well. Woof! Love them Beggin' Strips!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I think it has to do with the level of planning. First it was down to the week, then day, now hour. I use to plan to the haft day, but down to the hour months in advance is about at my personal limit.

For me, it took more time/effort planning a week at Disney then I had to for a trip a 3 week trip to Paris, London, and Cardiff. And my schedule is a lot more ridged at Disney, in part due to FP+.

OT--but Cardiff is where we went in Wales! So beautiful. We had the good fortune to have a friend who lived there and we stayed at her home. Actually her parents home which was Uncharacteristically larger than a normal Welsh home. And we just let her show us around. We did Cardiff Castle and The museum of Welsh life. None of this was pre-planned since our plan was to have her show is around. She even took me to Marks and Spencer. Way fancier than a Super Target.

 

[SmithSmith]

I echo JimmyV's very articulate comments.

I like to plan. I find myself planning more and more each time we visit WDW.

And yet each time, I feel like I derive less in return.

Why do I feel that way? Because in the end, I can't help but look at what it was I performed all that planning for. A 50 second ride in an amusement park? Some would call that obsessive compulsive behavior.

That's why in another thread I referred to Disney's accomplishments in these areas as an "almost Pavlovian feat". I was immediately torn to threads for saying that, accused of referring to people as dogs, but the fact is I truly admire that they have taken something that did not exist before (reserving an amusement park ride months in advance) and turn it into a potentially satisfying and strong stimulus.

But just because I admire it doesn't mean I'm blind to what it is. And that is behavorial modification. And I wonder how successful that will be long term.

You say "50 second ride" a lot. Besides maybe barnstormer, what ride is only 50 seconds long?

 

[Laketravis]

you say "50 second ride" a lot. Besides maybe barnstormer, what ride is only 50 seconds long?

7DMT. I'm sure there are others as well that clock in at a minute or so. RnRC?

 

[Jennasis]

You say "50 second ride" a lot. Besides maybe barnstormer, what ride is only 50 seconds long?

The dramatic license ride.

Lighten up.

 

[SmithSmith]

7DMT. I'm sure there are others as well that clock in at a minute or so. RnRC?

7DMT is 2 1/2 minutes.

RnRC is 1 1/2 without preshow.

 

[JimmyV]

We have done 2 week trip to England, Wales, and France and I did spend more time planning that than a Disney vacation because it 1) was new to me, 2) involved finding accomodations in 3 different countries, 3) involved rental car and planning routes to ensure we would make our destinations on time, 4) had me finding what we would actually do, and more!

Now imagine how complicated/frustrating/irritating your planning would have been if your visit to the Louvre involved "locking in" specific times of the day to see the Mona Lisa, Winged Victory, the Venus de Milo, the Raft of Medusa, Madonna on the Rocks and the Coronation of Napoleon! WDW has introduced a level of "micro planning" that even a trip to France does not require!

 

[Laketravis]

7DMT is 2 1/2 minutes.

RnRC is 1 1/2 without preshow.

Can you provide a source for your 7DMT ride duration? Everything I've seen indicates it is less than a minute and after riding it multiple times that certainly seemed accurate. It doesn't take 2.5 minutes to cover 2000 feet at an average speed of 35mph, does it?

 

[SuperTink]

You don't mind the planning. Others do.

End of story.

Hahaha!

If only!

 

[Laketravis]

Now imagine how complicated/frustrating/irritating your planning would have been if your visit to the Louvre involved "locking in" specific times times of the day to see the Mona Lisa, Winged Victory, the Venus de Milo, the Raft of Medusa, Madonna on the Rocks and the Coronation of Napoleon! WDW has introduced a level of "micro planning" that even a trip to France does not require!

I tried to make the same point using McDonald's as an example and it went over like a bucket of poop. I like yours better

 

[Luv2Run]

I'm a planner. I like it. Before it was like this, I was wishing for something that would make planning a trip more structured, so this fits my vacation style perfectly. If I wanted a tropical, fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants vacation, I'd go to Mexico or the Caribbean. And even then, I'd probably still plan it out a little bit.