The "Normal" Lens

boBQuincy

<font color=green>I am not carrying three pods<br>
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
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Since challenging the common wisdom on crop factor was so much fun, I thought I would take on another of our photographic "truths", the normal lens.

A "normal" lens is often considered to be one whose focal length is approximately the diagonal of the sensor, 50mm for full frame, 27mm for 1.6 crop. The idea of this being a normal lens is that it most closely approximates how our eyes see a scene. But how do our eyes see a scene?

One of the factors is the field of view, which is difficult to measure for our eyes. Our total field of view is quite wide, almost 180 degrees. Clearly, no 50mm lens is going to come anywhere close to that. What we see and what we perceive is quite different, our field of view that we normally acknowledge is much more narrow, maybe only about 50 degrees. This was perhaps one of the targets for a normal lens. With a field of view similar to what we recognize the image would look natural to us.

I am going to take another approach and suggest a "normal" lens is one that closely matches the magnification of our eyes in order to produce an image that looks natural to us. One way to check this is to set up a camera with a mid-range zoom lens, look through the camera with one eye while looking at the target with the other eye, and adjust the focal length until the image matches what we see. We must take into account any magnification of the viewfinder system, 0.9x in the case of a Canon 30D, so the lens zoom would be about 1.1X the length of the proposed normal lens. On my Canon 30D the lens setting that matches the magnification of my eyes is about 55mm. Multiplied by the 0.9x of the viewfinder this is right about 50mm!!! Hmm...

So much for magnfication, what about perspective? Lenses do not change perspective, relative distances do. If we replace the 50mm lens with a 24mm lens the perspective stays the same but the image size is half. In order to get the same magnification the 24mm lens would have to be half the distance from the subject as a 50mm lens would.
If a 24mm lens is placed at half the distance from the main subject as a 50mm, the main subject will be the same size, but subjects at other distances would not. Thus the image looks "wrong" to us, the proportions appear incorrect.

If the main subject is 5' distant and a secondary subject is 10' distant a "normal" lens would make both of these look to be the same magnification as with our eyes. In this case the subject at 10' would appear half the size of the subject at 5'. If we use a 24mm lens but get twice as close the main subject (now at 2.5') looks the same as it did with the 50mm at 5' but the distant subject is at 7.5', now 3x the distance of the main subject, instead of the 2x as it was before. Of course, the distant subject will now appear 1/3 the size of the main subject, giving the scene that "wide angle" look.

Similarly,if we use a 200mm lens and get 40' from the main subject, the secondary subject at 45' will appear almost the same size, giving that telephoto "flattened" look. From this we can see that only one focal length will make near and far subjects appear to be the proper magnification, and that would be our normal lens, the one that most closely corresponds to how our eyes see the scene. The 50mm.

A shorter (or longer) lens could be moved to make one or the other subjects the same magnification but not both. Only the "normal" lens would match our eyes magnification for subjects both near and far. And a 50mm does just that, even on a 1.6x crop camera. But why? Isn't the focal length of the normal lens supposed to be approximately the diagonal measurement of the sensor? And does this mean a 50mm would be a normal lens on *any* camera?

No, not really. What is *not* changing here is the lens to sensor distance, even though the sensor size itself is different. If we kept everything else the same and downsized the sensor even more, the 50mm would still give the same image, just less of it due to the cropping factor.

So the 50mm is still the normal lens, for full frame, for 1.3x, and even for 1.6x crop cameras, as long as they use the same geometry as their film camera counterparts. This holds true for Canon, Nikon, and any other dSLR that uses lenses from the film camera days.
These are my rantings and ravings for today, and I welcome any comments and/or corrections.


boB
 
Most point and shoot cameras made in the past 20 years have "standard" lenses in the 35 to 38mm range (35mm full frame equivalent focal length). For 35mm film cameras that would be the frame width as opposed to the frame diagonal.

I am just guessing that the intent was to provide the casual snapshooter a slightly wider angle than the normal lens gives.

Digial camera hints: http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/digicam.htm
 
This write-up was good, but not nearly as prone to a hot debate as the crop factor. If you really want to stir things up, write a post on how photos taken with a Canon are inherently superior to those taken with a Nikon due to the magical properties of the mystic "Red Ring of Mordor" found on Canon lenses.
 

If you really want to stir things up, write a post on how photos taken with a Canon are inherently superior to those taken with a Nikon due to the magical properties of the mystic "Red Ring of Mordor" found on Canon lenses.

This is a common misperception. People often notice that Canon photos look better than Nikons. Honestly, the cameras really aren't all that different. It's just that Canon photographers are that much better. ;)
 
If you really want to stir things up, write a post on how photos taken with a Canon are inherently superior to those taken with a Nikon due to the magical properties of the mystic "Red Ring of Mordor" found on Canon lenses.

But what's the point? Everyone knows Canons are superior so there's nothing to debate! (Duck and run...) ;)
 
You know I think I liked my wonderful ignorance to the whole crop factor thing I had before. I never used to think about the whole crop factor thing. Now I'm trying to wrap my brain around this. Stop making me think!!!:rotfl:

Yes, ignorance is bliss!
 
BTW, nice try on the explanation, but I think you are wrong. I agree that perspective is not affected by the lens.

Magnification and field-of-view are entirely dependent variables. Assuming that you hold the sensor size constant, increasing magnification means decreasing the field-of-view and decreasing the magnification means increasing the field-of-view.

Given two cameras that are identical except for the sensor size, it is true that they will both magnify the image by the same amount with camera using the smaller sensor cropping a larger portion of the image. That's what happens at the point of image capture. When designing the viewfinder, the manufacturer can make the viewfiends identical in size (thereby increasing the magnification of the image for the smaller sensor camera) or they can make the viewfienders proportional to the sensor size (thereby maintaining an identical magnification level and a proportional field-of-view).

Notice that the size of the image in the viewfinder, which you found critical to your analysis, is entirely dependent on how much the manufacturer wishes to magnify the incoming image. It has nothing to do with the size of the image captured on the sensor. The same thing is true when it comes time to display the image. I may make a 4x6" print, view the image on a 19" monitor, or on a 50" television. In each case, the magnification is different. My viewing distances is probably also different.

The two things that are locked at the point of image capture are the pespective, which we agreed was strictly determined by relative positions and not optics, and the field-of-view. Because the field-of-view is determined by the combination of the focal length and sensor size and does not vary regardless of viewfinder design, print size, or photo viewing distance, it is what people mean when they talk about a normal lens.

Here is the wikipedia listing of what constitutes a normal lens.
 
If Nikon users are Nikonians, what are the rest of us? Canonites? Pentaxions? Sonistas? The almost extinct race of Minoltans? Kodakrackers? Fujitsu?
 
If Nikon users are Nikonians, what are the rest of us? Canonites? Pentaxions? Sonistas? The almost extinct race of Minoltans? Kodakrackers? Fujitsu?


Ahhh, you're just mad Canon does not have a wicked cool user website :)

BTW-I have other name for my friends who use Canon's, just ask Bob and
skr8pn :)
 
Wait till I see you tomorrow..... Canon boy :)

CanonBoy... superhero from another planet, able to photograph tall buildings with his T/S lens, stops speeding locomotives with a fast shutter speed... able to write a load of @#$%^&* in a single run-on sentence! :)
 
Ahhh, you're just mad Canon does not have a wicked cool user website :)

BTW-I have other name for my friends who use Canon's, just ask Bob and
skr8pn :)

i like canon's website/tutorials and recommend it all the time, especially to non canon users since they are starting off with an obvious disadvantage.
"kodakrackers" however is almost good enough to make me want to buy an easyshare:rotfl:
( now just waiting for groucho or uk fan kevin to see this and pounce since i said i never make fun of other cameras...well almost never)
 
Boy are you all confused! :confused3 Every real photographer knows the "normal lens" is the lens that's normally on the camera. :lmao: :rotfl2: :rotfl:
 
Boy are you all confused! :confused3 Every real photographer knows the "normal lens" is the lens that's normally on the camera. :lmao: :rotfl2: :rotfl:

I thought the "normal lens" was the one that gave you normal looking shots. Since all of my photos are rather ab-normal looking, maybe I should get one of these fancy "normal lenses" to improve my photography. It can't be the photographer's fault, so it must be the lens!
 
I thought the "normal lens" was the one that gave you normal looking shots. Since all of my photos are rather ab-normal looking, maybe I should get one of these fancy "normal lenses" to improve my photography. It can't be the photographer's fault, so it must be the lens!

You can't find them at the camera store in Bloomington IL, all their lenses are "near Normal" or "not far from Normal". ;)
 
I thought the "normal lens" was the one that gave you normal looking shots. Since all of my photos are rather ab-normal looking, maybe I should get one of these fancy "normal lenses" to improve my photography. It can't be the photographer's fault, so it must be the lens!

I tell DH all the time, the reason I can't seem to get the shots I want is not my fault, I NEEED a new lens! Maybe something with an L in it. :rotfl:
 
well, since I see my name being dragged into this I might as well comment.

Sory boB and Furgus, some of us worked 12 hours today and then took the rear wheel the skr8pn-cycle. Thankfully though mrs. skr8pn (that just sounds creepy) mowed. However, if it wasn't for Furgus (though he does own a Nikon) I wouldn't have been able to work at all.

Now my my slanderous dragging Nikon through the mud comments....

clear the throat a little here...

deep breath...

and...

"oh yea, we'll I've got back lighting! Lets see how many stupidly long exposure shots you can take on a bridge with no back lighting"

Ha, there, take that.:laughing:
 
I tell DH all the time, the reason I can't seem to get the shots I want is not my fault, I NEEED a new lens! Maybe something with an L in it. :rotfl:
"Lens" has an "L" in it already or is that not the L you had in mind;)
 
I thought the "normal lens" was the one that gave you normal looking shots. Since all of my photos are rather ab-normal looking, maybe I should get one of these fancy "normal lenses" to improve my photography. It can't be the photographer's fault, so it must be the lens!
i keep reading this over and over, thinking "abby normal" aka young frankenstein and just can not get enough brain power up to think up a smart mouth retort....guess it's bed time:rotfl:
 














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