The Night Kingdom

[PinCrazed]

300 bucks times 4 in my family. $1200. That's alot of pins.

 

[cmash95]

think discovery cove. this park isn't too popular with americans, but foreign travelers eat it up. of course they also get admission to another busch park in the admission. but with the high end hotels being built on or near disney property, disney needs something for those guests who really don't care about the cost of an experience, just the experience themselves.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

think discovery cove. this park isn't too popular with americans, but foreign travelers eat it up. of course they also get admission to another busch park in the admission. but with the high end hotels being built on or near disney property, disney needs something for those guests who really don't care about the cost of an experience, just the experience themselves.

But does that mean it has to be unimaginitive? I'm sorry but building something just because it may be marketable isn't how I think Disney should operate. If this becomes their main criteria (which I suspect it has) then they are no different that Wal Mart.

Also, I haven't heard that Discovery Cove wasn't popular with Americans. Where do you get this from?

 

[MassJester]

Some of the public still buys it. Looking for a brand name on something eliminates all that bothersome thinking. Just like Disney Cruises is for people too intimidated by real cruises, and Adventures by Disney is for people too afraid of travel - I'm sure the $3Benjamin park will appeal to a certain segment of the public too timid to try real experiences. If you can get people to pay an extra grand for a three day cruise, you can certainly find people willing to drop an extra C to climb a fake rock wall.

AV, I recall you professing expertise on all things Disney and creative, but I had no idea you were also an expert in human motivation.

• Disney is now for people who can't or don't like thinking.
• The Cruise Line is for people who are intimidated by "real cruises."
• Adventures by Disney is for people afraid of "real experiences."

Is there a complete absence of fiber in your diet?

You're always big on calling people out and demanding their sources for the tiniest assertion. Aside for your disputed superior human intellect, where does all that insulting hogwash come from?

And if you believe all that stuff, particularly about today's Disney consumers being a cowardly, unthinking lot, what is your interest in chatiing with DIS members? Do you look at as spending time with a group of hapless stray dogs?

 

[Another Voice]

Is there a complete absence of fiber in your diet?

No, just far too many years sitting in meetings watching one PowerPoint slide after another as Disney tried to develop its "lifestyle brand image". Eisner decided, and Iger is pushing the policy faster and further than Eisner ever did, that the greatest thing Disney had to sell was "Disney". Making hit movies all the time is expensive, creating distinctive new attractions that please the public is very expensive.

It's so much easier to sell "dreams" and "magic" and "wishes do come true". It's much easier to grab attention by yelling "From the producers of 'High School Musical!!!!!'". Hell, Disney can't even name a motel with including the corporate brand possessive.

I write because I actually enjoyed Disney products. The great movies, how the stories can to life in the theme parks. With fading hopes I want to give voice to the others that feel like I do but can not articulate it. Those people that somehow wish Disney products would live up to the hype, or at least that Disney would spend as much on creating the movie in the first place as they do in the marketing. We could have done with a few less television spots for At World's End and had a few more drafts of the script.

But I know its a losing cause. For everyone that truly appreciates 'The Haunted Mansion', there seem to be a hundred people only interested in trading pins. For everyone that really wants to know how Disney films work and affect people, there seem to be a hundred people that think if they just surround themselves with Princess Merchandise ® their life will somehow be better.

Last month I finally had an opportunity to visit DisneySea. I got lost in the alleys of old New York Harbor, saw a boyhood image in my head come to life watching the Natulis moored in her volcano port, watched the sun set over an Italian village. Disney can still create amazing and wonderful places when it wants to (and its price is meet). The vast majority of the park's success comes directly from the fact that it's not run by Disney at all. Disney, here and now, simply chooses not to do good things. They see it's much easier to create an audience that's undemanding, and to create products that are undemanding as well.

In the end, people get what they want. I want 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, 'Pirates of the Caribbean', Beauty and the Beast. Others, here, want nothing more than Disney's Pop Century and to maximize their Disney Dining Plan points. If the idea of paying $300 bucks to heave a head of lettuce at a caged hippo sounds appealing I'm sure Disney is ready to take your credit number right now. I choose to hold out for something good, something worthwhile, something that rightful should be called "Disney" whichever corporation that happens to come from.

P.S. - If you think I'm nasty to the fans, just find out what Disney executives think of theme park guests and Internet fan boards. "Mouth-breathing WalMart Shoppers" is not my line.

 

[MassJester]

You see pin trading and marketing plans and roll your eyes in disgust and appear blind to any change that is the least bit positive -- I see Soarin', Expedition Everest, and the Extreme Stunt Show and am happy for the additions. In many people's experience all of these things fit together and combine for an engaging vacation destination.

It's ok that they don't in yours, but to so bitterly defame the leagues of visitors that don't agree is over the top.

You may have seen ugly people say ugly things in the development of marketing strategies, but hearing someone else behave in an ugly fashion towards the population is not license for you to become ugly towards them too.

I've enjoyed some of your commentary. But it crosses the line when your "insight" becomes a "superiority." If you believe that the millions of Disney visitors are truly unthinking, idiots afraid of the unkown--then perhaps you need not got to any further meetings or log in here to find someone who has lost the magic.

 

[Jason71]

think discovery cove. this park isn't too popular with americans, but foreign travelers eat it up. of course they also get admission to another busch park in the admission. but with the high end hotels being built on or near disney property, disney needs something for those guests who really don't care about the cost of an experience, just the experience themselves.

The problem is, Discovery Cove basically sells a dolphin swim for $300...and a bunch of other things that essentially exist to kill time before and after you swim with a dolphin. I don't think people are paying that much for the aviary and lazy river. Swimming with a dolphin has a mythic quality, and is highly interactive and tactile. The same can't be said for hurling lettuce at a captive hippo (to borrow Another Voice's example) or walking though guano.

BTW, I agree the fact that Discovery Cove includes a week-long ticket to Sea World probably can't be overlooked, either.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I too am happy for the additions, they are almost always better than nothing, but I also long for real imaginative additions. With Soarin' I got it. I think it's GREAT. EE is a fine, fine attraction and it fits in nicely and is loads of fun but it wasn't at all groundbraking. Just a coaster with a backwards twist. The stunt show? Yikes...See it once and blech, my personal taste, of course.

I see the problem is that lately it is all about marketing and less about imaginaiton. This new Night Kingdom idea is fine, I'm not agtainst the concept one iota, but IMO the ideas thrown out are simply nauseating. At least Sea World picked their subject matter from their area of expertise and gave us Discovery Cove. A GREAT experience, worth the money, buit in their particular strength.

Disney's offering, limited as we've seen, stinks of arrogance in that they believe they can give us anything, charge anything and we'll like it. The exact same attitude that gave us DCA and Dinoland. Sadly, again IMO, as evidenced here many people do want to eat it up.

Just doing something because it will be successful in the short run does not quality make and I for one think quality should be the hallmark of any endeavor that Disney undertakes. This "brand" nonsense is just taking a huge step in the wrong direction. I don't need Disney brand underewear or a Disney brand cola. I want them to stick with entertainment the old fashioned way, quality, imagination and go back to the motto of "give them more than they'd expect."

I don't want any more of the Wal Mart model in my life.

 

[ChrisFL]

Last month I finally had an opportunity to visit DisneySea. I got lost in the alleys of old New York Harbor, saw a boyhood image in my head come to life watching the Natulis moored in her volcano port, watched the sun set over an Italian village. Disney can still create amazing and wonderful places when it wants to (and its price is meet). The vast majority of the park's success comes directly from the fact that it's not run by Disney at all. Disney, here and now, simply chooses not to do good things. They see it's much easier to create an audience that's undemanding, and to create products that are undemanding as well.

First, I'm jealous but hope to get to Tokyo this year. Second, although I haven't been there yet, I've researched DisneySea extensively, and I would venture to guess that most Disney fans here would be blown away by it, and realizing that our current parks here really can't compare on the same level (and especially hideous realizing that Disney went and gave us DCA at the same time period)

 

[cmash95]

Also, I haven't heard that Discovery Cove wasn't popular with Americans. Where do you get this from?

my daughter works for busch and the feedback they get is that the americans aren't coming because they can get the same thing in mexico and hawaii cheaper and that americans coming to orlando have a very short amount of time to spend and limitted budget. they tend to squeeze a trip to sea world in between universal or disney visits.

 

[cmash95]

First, I'm jealous but hope to get to Tokyo this year. Second, although I haven't been there yet, I've researched DisneySea extensively, and I would venture to guess that most Disney fans here would be blown away by it, and realizing that our current parks here really can't compare on the same level (and especially hideous realizing that Disney went and gave us DCA at the same time period)

you do realise that eventhough disney doesn't own disney seas, they were a huge part in planning it and imagineering designed the attractions. it's not imagination that's the problem, it's the fact that oriental land company ( like mr lassitter.) was willing to spend the money to bring the imagineers ideas to life. Imagineers have lots of ideas but those in charge of disney parks don't want to spend the money. my concern is that this will go the way of PI and the disney institute.

 

[ChrisFL]

you do realise that eventhough disney doesn't own disney seas, they were a huge part in planning it and imagineering designed the attractions. it's not imagination that's the problem, it's the fact that oriental land company ( like mr lassitter.) was willing to spend the money to bring the imagineers ideas to life. Imagineers have lots of ideas but those in charge of disney parks don't want to spend the money. my concern is that this will go the way of PI and the disney institute.

Yes, I definitely DO realize that WDI was fully involved in the design, but cash flow and management decisions are the big difference. OLC understands they need top quality theming and lots of activities to do to get people in the gates.

 

[Another Voice]

I've researched DisneySea extensively, and I would venture to guess that most Disney fans here would be blown away by it…

After the initial shock of “ohmygod this is amazing” came the reaffirmation of what I’ve been talking about all along - Disney really, truly, deeply, positively can deliver when it wants to.

Disney just chooses not to these days.

It’s a mixture of management arrogance, a lot of ignorance, and a paralyzing fear of failure that suffocates everything the company does these days. A stage show based on ‘American Idol’? I mean – come on now – that’s the best use of resources they can come up with? You have to have your head pretty much filled with pixie dust not to see what a crass and commercial scam that is.

There isn’t a square foot of DisneySea that you can walk into and not feel that people put everything they had into it – and that they also had absolute joy doing it. Making theme parks is no different than any other job in that respect – you can tell if people like what they are doing or just punching a clock. You can spend an afternoon in the American Waterfront section just reading signs and discovering all the inside jokes, internal themeing and just plain fun that people had creating them.

There is a joy of making things that you just don’t feel at Dino-Rama or ‘Everest’. People like to whine that others don’t have “magic” if they don't follow the group think. I think it’s they who have lost sense of the real “magic” Disney used to create and they've just lowered their standards to keep themselves happy. It's hard to invest so much and admit disappointment. If people like ‘Stitch Encounter’, more power to them. I have better things to do with my time and money.

 

[PinCrazed]

Well that is a hard act to follow.

I believe that as individuals, we perhaps, hold Disney to a higher standard than other companies. Unfortunately the current times we live in focus on fast imediate satisfaction and thrill. Magic is something that is usually left for books about boy wizards (And we know that makes money) I would not go so far as to say Disney has lost it's touch on some it's new endeavers, but there are occassions as stated in previous possts on this thread, where it feels as if something is missing. That is why the classic rides and attraction of the Magic Kingdom, in my opinion, exceed those of the newer parks.

However, on any given day, Disney's most lack luster and unimaginative creation surpasses all the competition.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

However, on any given day, Disney's most lack luster and unimaginative creation surpasses all the competition.

I know this was a few years ago now but which company gave us the terrific and ground breaking attraction Spiderman?

Now I'm not arguing this is better than that or whoop de doo or minnie haha a go go but it is obvious to me that Disney no longer has the market cornered on anything other than becoming a bigger Wal Mart than Wal Mart.

 

[ChrisFL]

However, on any given day, Disney's most lack luster and unimaginative creation surpasses all the competition.

I gotta agree with Peter Pirate 2 as well, and IMO not only Spiderman, but overall, comparing a park like IOA to DCA (which were both open the same year) just shows the era and differences in the two companies and the goals they were after. That shows me that Disney is not always better than the competion.

Back to DisneySea for a minute...I really would be interested if this park had been built in the U.S., would the people here be saying "Where's all of the Pixar tie-ins? Where's the teeny bopper tie-ins?"

It's sad that every time a new Disney/Pixar movie of some kind comes out, people suddenly ask where is it in the parks and why isn't it there, if it isn't in the parks.

I still shudder every time I think of High School Musical taking up residence for its time in Tomorrowland...that to me is the lowest of the low.

 

[Another Voice]

However, on any given day, Disney's most lack luster and unimaginative creation surpasses all the competition.

Visit California Adventure....

I rode 'SuperStar Limo'. I've seen the Tortilla Making Machine. I've twirled about on the Orange Stinger. I've actually sat through 'Whoppi Recreates California History' (where Sonny Bono gets more screen time than Ronald Reagan does during the Famous California segment). Twice.

And that made DisneySea both more painful and more amazing.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

There is an old song (I think from Annie Get Your Gun) with the lyrics of "Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better than you". It is unfortunate that the people who designed/built DCA (instead of the original planned Westcot) revised the song to "Anything you can do I can do cheaper, I can do anything cheaper than you".

Oriental Land Company, the actual owner of TDL/TDS, said they wanted the parks done right. Since they were paying, according to some people from WDI they did do things right.

 

[Magic Kingdom Rocks]

I think doing a 5th park is not out of the question, but this kind of park i would definatly not like.

 

[MJMcBride]

I think doing a 5th park is not out of the question, but this kind of park i would definatly not like.

But its the only way you'll get a "5th Gate"