The condition of thr WDW monorails

[rteetz]

The Walt Disney World Resort celebrated their 43rd anniversary yesterday. The Walt Disney World monorail was an opening day "attraction" and since has expanded to Epcot and received a new set of trains. Its been a long time since the trains have receieved a proper refurb that it may be time for a whole new set of trains. Some don't realize just how old they are and the condition they are in. Here is an article showing this.

http://www.orlandoparksnews.com/2014/10/the-poor-condition-of-walt-disney-world.html

Disneyland received an upgraded set of trains not too long ago, when will WDW get new ones?

 

[Maineiak]

...The Walt Disney World monorail was an opening day "attraction" and since has expanded to Epcot and received a new set of trains...

It's still an "attraction" for my 6 year old daughter. She loves it! And, it brings back fond memories for me as well. My only thoughts about the monorail are...

/types comment about monorail expansion
//deletes comment about monorail expansion

 

[Fanboy]

I hope they get replacement trains soon as, to me at least, the monorail is as much an iconic image for WDW as Cinderella's castle or Spaceship Earth.

I can't be the only one that has to stop what I'm doing in Epcot to watch the train glide by overhead.

 

[wallrock]

As a fan of the monorail I hope that they undergo some significant upgrade soon. Like others have said I'd love to even see an expansion, but we know that won't ever happen.

Unfortunately I think this will go in the opposite direction. The monorails haven't been upgraded since 1991 and they seem to be down more and more for 'maintenance'. I'm certain that the suits have been watching how the boats have performed in terms of getting guests from A to B during the down times. Like buses, the number and/or size of the vehicles can be adjusted based on crowd levels. During down times smaller boats can be used and during peak times of opening and closing of the park larger boats can be used. Gotta remember that the Epcot line aside, the monorail only services guests at the three resorts at the Magic Kingdom (really two given how close the Contemporary is to the entrance). Others certainly ride it, but the majority of the guests don't depend on it for transportation. It really is an 'attraction' more than anything else, and we all know that attractions can be closed.

I think we're seeing the end times approaching for the monorail.

 

[AGoofykindagirl]

I hope they get replacement trains soon as, to me at least, the monorail is as much an iconic image for WDW as Cinderella's castle or Spaceship Earth. I can't be the only one that has to stop what I'm doing in Epcot to watch the train glide by overhead.

You are not the only one who stops and watches. I like to smile and wave and see who waves back! Especially if the one waving back is a child who breaks into a large grin. That's magic!

 

[Josh Hendy]

I think that ultimately the problem is that monorails are a lot more expensive to build and operate than a fleet of buses, and are far less flexible as "people movers". They're a great attraction or "ride" but WDW is unfortunately saddled with a lot more monorail track than is necessary just to provide a fun ride.

Buses are really boring and ordinary, but there's nothing to beat them in terms of simplicity of building, maintaining and operating them. Buses go literally anywhere you want except across water. You can put extra buses on easily, change their routes or send them on a detour as easily as sending a 5 second radio message to the driver.

Every mile of monorail track that you build must cost at least 50 or 100 times more than building a mile of asphalt roadway for buses. Although each monorail train carries more people than a bus, the nature of the beast is such that lots of control, supervision and maintenance people must be involved in watching and directing the trains. Not to mention a lot of computers, software, monitoring and signalling systems.

There are many suppliers of buses, every year new and better models are available, replacement parts are plentiful, and there are tens of thousands of people out there who are capable of operating and fixing buses with very little extra training required.

Monorails are a completely unique, custom piece of equipment with no ready suppliers at all, so procuring them is an extremely complicated and lengthy process. There is no aftermarket whatsoever for vehicles or parts.

If a bus breaks down, it rolls to the side of the road, another bus picks up the stranded passengers within minutes, and all the other buses continue to use the road as if nothing happened.

You can't re-route a monorail, and if one train has the slightest glitch, the entire track is blocked until the train can be fixed or towed away, and usually the "towing away" requires the shutdown of some of the other monorail tracks in order to move the train to the sheds. Passengers can't be evacuated without an elaborate and dangerous procedure involving ladders, etc.

It's a completely unique vehicle so you can't put out an ad for a trained and experienced monorail engineer or driver (err, pilot). You have to do 100% of the training yourself, as well as developing all of the required standards and procedures for operation and maintenance.

So although they're a really, really cool and fun attraction, monorails just aren't the practical form of transportation that Walt imagined. It looks really bad when Disney shuts down or scales back the monorails, or neglects the little cleaning and maintenance jobs mentioned in the linked article, but in this case I sympathize with them for pinching pennies.

Possibly a good long-term solution would be to simplify the track layout so that there is only a single route which circles the lagoon then loops down to Epcot and back. It wouldn't be as easy to use them as transportation to get between resorts/TTC and magic kingdom, but as explained above, they're pretty poor as "people movers" anyways. So by simplifying the tracks you could still operate them for the "gee whiz" factor and spare a lot of the huge expense of operating 3 different tracks with 3 different sets of trains.

 

[DanBoris]

The are currently re-fitting the monorails for automated operation, so it seems unlikely they are going to replace them since they are going through the trouble of upgrading them.

 

[OKW Lover]

The current monorails aren't 43 years old. The current series was introduced in the early 90's.

Not sure what you want in a new monorail car? Wider? Faster? Just looks new? New car smell?

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

1. OKW Lover is correct the present trains were introduced in the 90's, however the quality and design of these trains are not a good or nice in my opinion as the originals.

2. You may have noticed that over the last 2 years there has been a lot of maintaince being done on the Monorail system, however mostly on the tracks and line, not the trains.

The new automation system is mostly a investment is equipment and computers off the trains. The equipment on the trains themselves is fairly simple and could be removed and place in the new trains

I would believe that this is all a very good indication the new trains are not *TO* far off. Time will tell.

3. With the steady decrease in the costs to build a monorail system, it is not outside the realm of possibility that the monorails could be expanded. Buses are getting more expensive to buy, operate and in labor.

I believe that in the next 10 years you will hear of a major expansion in either a the monorails or a light rail/pod system tied (with 2 WDW stations) into the train from MCO or even a monorail form MCO to Orlando and Disney.


The Monorails will always be at WDW it is indeed a WDW icon.

AKK

 

[Andrew015]

I think that ultimately the problem is that monorails are a lot more expensive to build and operate than a fleet of buses, and are far less flexible as "people movers". They're a great attraction or "ride" but WDW is unfortunately saddled with a lot more monorail track than is necessary just to provide a fun ride.

Buses are really boring and ordinary, but there's nothing to beat them in terms of simplicity of building, maintaining and operating them. Buses go literally anywhere you want except across water. You can put extra buses on easily, change their routes or send them on a detour as easily as sending a 5 second radio message to the driver.

Every mile of monorail track that you build must cost at least 50 or 100 times more than building a mile of asphalt roadway for buses. Although each monorail train carries more people than a bus, the nature of the beast is such that lots of control, supervision and maintenance people must be involved in watching and directing the trains. Not to mention a lot of computers, software, monitoring and signalling systems.

There are many suppliers of buses, every year new and better models are available, replacement parts are plentiful, and there are tens of thousands of people out there who are capable of operating and fixing buses with very little extra training required.

Monorails are a completely unique, custom piece of equipment with no ready suppliers at all, so procuring them is an extremely complicated and lengthy process. There is no aftermarket whatsoever for vehicles or parts.

If a bus breaks down, it rolls to the side of the road, another bus picks up the stranded passengers within minutes, and all the other buses continue to use the road as if nothing happened.

You can't re-route a monorail, and if one train has the slightest glitch, the entire track is blocked until the train can be fixed or towed away, and usually the "towing away" requires the shutdown of some of the other monorail tracks in order to move the train to the sheds. Passengers can't be evacuated without an elaborate and dangerous procedure involving ladders, etc.

It's a completely unique vehicle so you can't put out an ad for a trained and experienced monorail engineer or driver (err, pilot). You have to do 100% of the training yourself, as well as developing all of the required standards and procedures for operation and maintenance.

So although they're a really, really cool and fun attraction, monorails just aren't the practical form of transportation that Walt imagined. It looks really bad when Disney shuts down or scales back the monorails, or neglects the little cleaning and maintenance jobs mentioned in the linked article, but in this case I sympathize with them for pinching pennies.

Possibly a good long-term solution would be to simplify the track layout so that there is only a single route which circles the lagoon then loops down to Epcot and back. It wouldn't be as easy to use them as transportation to get between resorts/TTC and magic kingdom, but as explained above, they're pretty poor as "people movers" anyways. So by simplifying the tracks you could still operate them for the "gee whiz" factor and spare a lot of the huge expense of operating 3 different tracks with 3 different sets of trains.

I really don't think this comes down to a "Monorail vs Bus" argument of which is more efficient, easier, cheaper, etc to operate. The answer to this argument was no different in 1971 than it is today. Without question, buses were and still are the easier, more economical transportation option to own and operate.

When the park opened, not every single decision was driven by bottom line dollars. Walt's vision was still very much alive, and the monorail was not simply just a means of moving guests around the resort. It was a unique experience that 99% of guests would not be able to experience anywhere else. The monorail was one of many experiences that set Disney apart from anywhere else on the planet, and that is the reason that it was built - at a very expensive premium.

Unfortunately, Walt's vision has taken a back seat to things like dividends, EBITDA, profitability, etc., and that is the sole reason that you have seen only minimal investment into the monorail over the past 20+ years. I really don't think we will see the monorail go by the wayside, but unfortunately, you're not going to see any significant upgrades anytime soon, either (aside from the automation project that is currently underway). The trains will continue to limp along until they are absolutely forced to make a critical decision. The trains are already well beyond their useful life expectancy, so at this point, Disney is (and has been for some time) playing with "house money".

 

[rteetz]

The current monorails aren't 43 years old. The current series was introduced in the early 90's. Not sure what you want in a new monorail car? Wider? Faster? Just looks new? New car smell?

I wasn't trying to say that the monorails are 43 years old. I do know they had new trains introduces I was just recognizing that the monorail system was introduced when the park opened. I think a new monorail would be maybe wider or longer to accommodate more people they could also incorporate new technology. With the current upgrades I don't foresee this happening anytime soon.

It would be very nice to see a monorail refurb or something in the near future. A new paint job some new seats in the trains something along those lines would make the monorails feel new again and would save disney money one thing they love to do.

 

[OKW Lover]

I think a new monorail would be maybe wider or longer to accommodate more people they could also incorporate new technology. With the current upgrades I don't foresee this happening anytime soon.

There are physical constraints that would probably prevent widening the monorails to any significant extent. In places the dual tracks around Seven Seas Lagoon are very close to each other, limiting how wide the trains can be. Also, each station would have to be modified to allow the wider monorails to pass through.

As far as making them longer, that's possible but it might also require lengthening the station platforms. Not sure how many might be affected.

 

[Laketravis]

1. OKW Lover is correct the present trains were introduced in the 90's, however the quality and design of these trains are not a good or nice in my opinion as the originals.

2. You may have noticed that over the last 2 years there has been a lot of maintaince being done on the Monorail system, however mostly on the tracks and line, not the trains.

The new automation system is mostly a investment is equipment and computers off the trains. The equipment on the trains themselves is fairly simple and could be removed and place in the new trains

I would believe that this is all a very good indication the new trains are not *TO* far off. Time will tell.

3. With the steady decrease in the costs to build a monorail system, it is not outside the realm of possibility that the monorails could be expanded. Buses are getting more expensive to buy, operate and in labor.

I believe that in the next 10 years you will hear of a major expansion in either a the monorails or a light rail/pod system tied (with 2 WDW stations) into the train from MCO or even a monorail form MCO to Orlando and Disney.


The Monorails will always be at WDW it is indeed a WDW icon.

AKK

Agree 100%

I don't believe the construction and ongoing operating costs are as high as many people speculate. Certainly not the zillions of dollars per mile that some will compare to municipal systems which spare absolutely no cost and massively over build.

WDW owns the right of way, so land acquisition isn't an issue. The current track system has been fully depreciated decades ago as well the current trains. And if you really look at the construction of the beams and supports, they are surprisingly light weight when you compare them to.... municipal systems.

In fact, the supports don't appear to comprise more than 100 yards of concrete and the beams are fabricated off-site much like.....well, I'll spare the often regurgitated analysis but consider that in 1972 the widely publicized cost figures for the WDW monorail infrastructure was $1M per mile. Accounting for inflation one would expect that to be roughly $6M per mile today. That's almost a rounding error for Disney, they spent more than that to put RFID's on drink cups to make sure we don't get another 10 cents worth of soda.

My point is I don't believe WDW hasn't improved/expanded the monorail system due to cost. I think it's more an issue of profit - it's hard to argue that the monorail MAKES money. It has inherent nostalgic and coolness value, for sure, and while the pencil pushers at Disney haven't put an ROI on that I'm confident they understand what WDW would be like without it.

 

[Andrew015]

Agree 100%

I don't believe the construction and ongoing operating costs are as high as many people speculate. Certainly not the zillions of dollars per mile that some will compare to municipal systems which spare absolutely no cost and massively over build.

WDW owns the right of way, so land acquisition isn't an issue. The current track system has been fully depreciated decades ago as well the current trains. And if you really look at the construction of the beams and supports, they are surprisingly light weight when you compare them to.... municipal systems.

In fact, the supports don't appear to comprise more than 100 yards of concrete and the beams are fabricated off-site much like.....well, I'll spare the often regurgitated analysis but consider that in 1972 the widely publicized cost figures for the WDW monorail infrastructure was $1M per mile. Accounting for inflation one would expect that to be roughly $6M per mile today. That's almost a rounding error for Disney, they spent more than that to put RFID's on drink cups to make sure we don't get another 10 cents worth of soda.

My point is I don't believe WDW hasn't improved/expanded the monorail system due to cost. I think it's more an issue of profit - it's hard to argue that the monorail MAKES money. It has inherent nostalgic and coolness value, for sure, and while the pencil pushers at Disney haven't put an ROI on that I'm confident they understand what WDW would be like without it.

Agree with your sentiments 100%

 

[rteetz]

There are physical constraints that would probably prevent widening the monorails to any significant extent. In places the dual tracks around Seven Seas Lagoon are very close to each other, limiting how wide the trains can be. Also, each station would have to be modified to allow the wider monorails to pass through. As far as making them longer, that's possible but it might also require lengthening the station platforms. Not sure how many might be affected.

I agree I think making them longer would be the best option but as for the physical condition of the interiors they really could use a refurb.

 

[rteetz]

Agree 100% I don't believe the construction and ongoing operating costs are as high as many people speculate. Certainly not the zillions of dollars per mile that some will compare to municipal systems which spare absolutely no cost and massively over build. WDW owns the right of way, so land acquisition isn't an issue. The current track system has been fully depreciated decades ago as well the current trains. And if you really look at the construction of the beams and supports, they are surprisingly light weight when you compare them to.... municipal systems. In fact, the supports don't appear to comprise more than 100 yards of concrete and the beams are fabricated off-site much like.....well, I'll spare the often regurgitated analysis but consider that in 1972 the widely publicized cost figures for the WDW monorail infrastructure was $1M per mile. Accounting for inflation one would expect that to be roughly $6M per mile today. That's almost a rounding error for Disney, they spent more than that to put RFID's on drink cups to make sure we don't get another 10 cents worth of soda. My point is I don't believe WDW hasn't improved/expanded the monorail system due to cost. I think it's more an issue of profit - it's hard to argue that the monorail MAKES money. It has inherent nostalgic and coolness value, for sure, and while the pencil pushers at Disney haven't put an ROI on that I'm confident they understand what WDW would be like without it.

I think once upon a time the monorail really did help disney make money. If you stayed at CR, or Poly in the early days that was an added benefit you were on the monorail line. Now today it's not with Disney's pricing that's not necessarily true. Back in the 70s and 80s you paid to be on that monorail line. Disney of course doesn't like spending a lot of money in without getting a return, that's why big wigs aren't liking how MyMagic+ has turned out.

 

[Andrew015]

IF we ever see new trains in the future, I doubt they will be longer/wider than the current system. I think there would be a significant push ($$$) to use existing infrastructure, and I think that is only logical. The cost to widen/lengthen existing platforms, not to mention punching a bigger hole into the sides of the Contemporary, would be difficult to justify for the slight increase in capacity. I really don't believe capacity is a problem on the existing system, but if it were, that could be offset by faster trains or more of them.

Quite frankly, I would be happy if Disney simply reupholstered the existing cars. The cost to do this would be minimal, and it would make a significant visual improvement (not to mention the smell of the new upholstery would probably outweigh the "musty" smell of the AC / condensation for some time)...

 

[rteetz]

IF we ever see new trains in the future, I doubt they will be longer/wider than the current system. I think there would be a significant push ($$$) to use existing infrastructure, and I think that is only logical. The cost to widen/lengthen existing platforms, not to mention punching a bigger hole into the sides of the Contemporary, would be difficult to justify for the slight increase in capacity. I really don't believe capacity is a problem on the existing system, but if it were, that could be offset by faster trains or more of them. Quite frankly, I would be happy if Disney simply reupholstered the existing cars. The cost to do this would be minimal, and it would make a significant visual improvement (not to mention the smell of the new upholstery would probably outweigh the "musty" smell of the AC / condensation for some time)...

I agree completely but if they went longer which I believe they did when they added the trains in the 90s the contemporary platform wouldn't have to be lengthened. If it was wider than it would be but I don't think it would ever become wider.

Like you said a simple reupholstery would do the job.

 

[Tigger's ally]

I agree completely but if they went longer which I believe they did when they added the trains in the 90s the contemporary platform wouldn't have to be lengthened. If it was wider than it would be but I don't think it would ever become wider.

Like you said a simple reupholstery would do the job.

Why do I get a mental picture of the poor people in the "Caboose" sticking out of the Contemporary like a tail. Longer trains need longer platforms too! Let the Caboose people exit too if they want.

 

[jcnewton]

Quite frankly, I would be happy if Disney simply reupholstered the existing cars. The cost to do this would be minimal, and it would make a significant visual improvement (not to mention the smell of the new upholstery would probably outweigh the "musty" smell of the AC / condensation for some time)...

This. I think a little work on the interiors would go a long way.