Teacher union ARGH!!!!

[declansdad]

Oh I would say thousands and thousands of people everyday!!!! Ever hear of Boy Scout leaders and Girl Scout leaders, 4H leaders, Sunday School teachers, Key Club advisor's, Boys and Girls club volunteers, Hospital volunteers, Junior Achievement advisor's. I'm sorry teachers doing clubs are only doing what many, many other people are also doing with out asking to be declared Saints!


Be glad you don't have a senior, our lovely "professionals" last negotiations put a slow down on or refused to write any letters of recommendation for college. Cute huh? Real Professional right? yes lets screw up our best students chance of getting into a good school so we can act like spoiled brats. Guess how our community felt about teachers after that, let alone the students.

Where did the teacher asked to be declared a saint??

 

[maddiemouse]

Oh I would say thousands and thousands of people everyday!!!! Ever hear of Boy Scout leaders and Girl Scout leaders, 4H leaders, Sunday School teachers, Key Club advisor's, Boys and Girls club volunteers, Hospital volunteers, Junior Achievement advisor's. I'm sorry teachers doing clubs are only doing what many, many other people are also doing with out asking to be declared Saints!


Be glad you don't have a senior, our lovely "professionals" last negotiations put a slow down on or refused to write any letters of recommendation for college. Cute huh? Real Professional right? yes lets screw up our best students chance of getting into a good school so we can act like spoiled brats. Guess how our community felt about teachers after that, let alone the students.

Yes, but the people who are Boy Scout leaders, etc, are doing it by choice, not because it expected of them as part of their jobs. I do volunteer work also, but my salary is not tied into it. And the work I do is not necessarily taken into consideration when I am up for a raise.
These people are teaching your CHLDREN, give them all the support you can.

 

[Kathi OD]

I don't have children, I went to Catholic schools, my only involvement in teachers pay has been the property taxes I've paid throughout my life.
That being said, I believe there are no more important influences in your children's lives, other than yourselves, than their teachers. PAY them what they're worth!!!
Who among you does extra work for free? With no expectation of any return but the satisfaction of knowing that you've done a good thing? Our teachers do this every day.
No, I am not a teacher, but I would rather pay higher taxes to better the teachers salary, than to fund an illegal war. But that's another thread.

Yes, but the people who are Boy Scout leaders, etc, are doing it by choice, not because it expected of them as part of their jobs. I do volunteer work also, but my salary is not tied into it. And the work I do is not necessarily taken into consideration when I am up for a raise.
These people are teaching your CHLDREN, give them all the support you can.

Teachers everywhere wish more citizens supported them the way you do. On behalf of them and for myself,

THANK YOU!

 

[MrsPete]

Oh I would say thousands and thousands of people everyday!!!! Ever hear of Boy Scout leaders and Girl Scout leaders, 4H leaders, Sunday School teachers, Key Club advisor's, Boys and Girls club volunteers, Hospital volunteers, Junior Achievement advisor's. I'm sorry teachers doing clubs are only doing what many, many other people are also doing with out asking to be declared Saints!

I'm a scout leader and a teacher who sponsors several extra-curriculars at the high school. Here's the difference:

In my scout troop, I feel appreciated. When we have an outing coming up, parents volunteer to drive, chaperone, send in snacks -- this isn't something they do for ME, it's something they do for the KIDS. At Christmas and the end of the year, parents and children send me cards and small remembrances. Both kids and parents tell me that they enjoyed the activities I planned -- sometimes they remind me of things we did years ago, which lets me know that the things I'm doing with them make a lasting difference. I've loved being a leader for these girls, in part because it's a two-way street: we work together to provide wonderful experiences for these scouts.

Contrast that with the clubs I sponsor at school; actually, I used to sponsor two clubs, but I just couldn't continue to put the effort into both. Parent participation: Zip. They won't even pick their kids up on time after school! I can count on staying at least 30 minutes after the meeting ends because someone's running late, and I'm not allowed to leave until the last kid's accounted for. I have stayed as much as two hours late, and once I actually had to pay late fees because I picked my own children up from day care late (I dropped that late-late-late kid from the club role, and he thought it was terribly unfair). I provide snacks out of my own pocket, and instead of saying thanks, the kids complain that the cookies aren't good enough, or I should've provided drinks too! I have literally NEVER had a parent thank me for providing these extra-curriculars to the kids, and the kids don't seem to realize that it's an above-and-beyond thing for me either (though they don't hesitate to ask me to compose dozens of letters of recommendations for college admission and scholarships). With my school clubs, I feel like I'm out there on my own. I guess people think I'm being paid to do these things, and it's part of my job. It isn't; clubs are volunteer work, and I'm starting to think I should be giving that time to my own children.

I'm really sick and tired of providing this club after school. I think this'll be the last year.

Just for the record, back to the main point, we have no teacher unions here. Whether you have them or don't have them in your area, you have to understand that teaching is genuinely different from other jobs. In numerous ways, it simply cannot be compared to other jobs. I do not want any other job, but I can say with confidence that the single worst thing about teaching is not the low pay or the children with problem behaviors or the demands of teaching children of multiple ability levels in the same class; no, the single worst thing about teaching is that people feel free to generalize about teachers and put them down.

 

[DISUNC]

Ok I can understand the need for consolidated representation. Our teachers are without contract. They are demanding a 7% raise across the board and a reduction of 3% in their health care participation requirement. Our teachers are the among the highest paid in the state. But whatever, and honestly where is the money going to come from? How about eliminating some of the administrative overages?

Now why I am angry. One of my children is in 8th grade. He has been on the Robotics team for 3 years. Captain last year and they came in second in the state competition. Was going to be Captain again this year. Only there won't be Robotics. The "teacher" is not allowed to go beyond his 8-2 work hours. So no robotics, No DI, no yearbook, the list goes on and on. Now my gripe is that eventually they will settle - probably at a reduced increase rate. And my taxes will go up again. And my son will never have the chance to do this again. He will never again get to be on the team at school. He won't get a do-over on the yearbook. ( I expect to step in to run the yearbook but robotics I can't do)

He came home very upset after talking to his computer teacher(and robotics team leader) Who told him "no no club this year." and that's it. Now this man has worked with my son over the past 3 years and that is all he gets?
My son said after telling me about the club, You know why there is not going to be a club this year Mom? Because the teacher's really DON'T care about us.
Now this is a boy that has shown nothing but respect to his teacher's. He always has great relationships with his teachers. Now on swoop of a contract negotiation and his opinion on teachers has changed forever. And that makes me sick.
So guess what? I am voting a big stinking NO!!! To your pay increase next month. I will not be held hostage.

I feel bad for your son, but I believe your anger is very misplaced. And you should tell your son that this has nothing to do with whether the teachers care or not.

Where did it ever say a teacher HAS to do Extra Curricular activity?????

This post goes to show you just how much extra teachers put in with no thanks from the parents. It's one of those 'You dont know what you got until its gone" scenarios.

Back in the old days...60-70's..Grade K to 8th grade Teachers taught(that's it)....they NEVER (or rarely) did extra curricular activities. It was never even expected. That what parents & school volunteers are for. I believe that parents wanting the educaters to "do it all" from 8:00am to 6:00pm with their children, is a huge part of the problem with education today

 

[Hannathy]

In our district and all the districts around us the teachers ARE paid for extra-curriculars. In Highschool they also don't wait until everyone has gone home, middle school and down yes but not in Highschool.

 

[Kteacher]

In our district there are limited funds for extra curricular , or " clubs " in the secondary school. Not all clubs get funded. I think what the OP needs to do is contact the school committee members and the supt. and express exactly the same frustration to them that has been expressed here. I've been through 3 rounds of contract negotiations, and mgt. wants the parents to get upset with the teachers , when it's mgt. that is cutting things out of the budget. It might also be a good idea to contact the teacher and ask " what can I do to help ?"
I really don't like these " teacher bashing " threads. There are good and bad employees in just about every profession. I do a lot of " extras " in my school and in my district as do quite a few of the teachers I know. I also consider myself a member of the community where I live, and do a lot of volunteering outside of my school job. I'm a Girl Scout leader, and I also teach adult literacy through the library. Many of the teachers I know volunteer within their communities as well. My own 3 kids are being raised to know that volunteering is a given, not an option.

 

[Kath2003]

I'm sorry for your son, OP, but firstly extra-curricular activities are something teachers do voluntarily. They do not get paid for them. Secondly, you do not know what that teacher has going on in his life. He may have additional commitments, an ill family member, a new baby on the way etc., all of which will mean that he doesn't have time to do the extra-curricular stuff on top of his teaching. Perhaps the school cut his funding and so he literally doesn't have the space or equipment to run the club.

It's sad for your son, yes, but let's not just flame this guy because he's stopped volunteering. I don't see how teaching unions come into this - extra-curricular activities are optional for staff.

 

[java]

The after school stuff is paid by a small amount- well small if you think the soccer coach decided to keep going to do it because he got $1800 for the season.
And what they are asking for (the 7% is beyond what the STATE OF NJ allows.) On the healthcare they want to eliminate their $15 copay. They have not been willing to go to the table to negotiate for the past month(or all summer because you see that wouldn't have the impact on the community the way it does during the school year)

I understand wanting a pay raise. Our teachers(nj) are mostly from PA. Why? Because they get paid nearly twice as much by working here.

And I don't mean to bash all teachers in any way. I still love many of the teachers in our district and do feel that their hands are tied by the union. But I am still angry and will vote no. I won't agree to a pay raise for 3 years so the average $55000 salary will go to $67000 by the end of the 3 years. And that is salary alone- They do get step levels of additional pay based on service commitment.

I can't imagine having a job and going in and saying I demand a 7% raise and one for all my coworkers or I am not working past the 6 hours I am in the building. In any non-union job that would get you fired without a raise. So I guess my gripe really is with the union.

There are teachers in my children's school that deserve double that $55,000. And there are teachers that deserve half. Why not get paid on merit of service?

Again these are not Volunteer positions- but the $ paid is not great so I do think those that do it are giving their services at a deeply discounted rate.

 

[java]

This post goes to show you just how much extra teachers put in with no thanks from the parents. It's one of those 'You dont know what you got until its gone" scenarios.

This part bothered me in the no thanks part. The coach that got the extra $1800 from the district is also getting an awards meal and a check for $250 from the players.
We thanked him throughout the season. On the Robotics teacher, we donated a set of Parts to the teacher($150 worth or stuff) last year. We would go and help set up at events. My son also VOLUNTEERED to help design a website for this particular teacher and another teacher and developed a design program that they are using in class. So yes teachers give extra- and so do parents and children.

 

[Royalbear]

I would like to know what professional job out there does not require doing "voluntold" duties out of the usual work hours or job description. I am a nurse-midwife, but in addition to delivering babies and seeing patients in clinics, I am going to quality improvement meetings, teaching teen classes in high school, going to health care symposiums for consumers, etc. I knew it going in that my job required more than just the basics, as I would expect that teachers should know their job requires some extra work outside of the teaching arena.

To the OP, how about getting an industry to sponsor the robotics club? I am sure a local engineering or tech firm would love the publicity, and they usually have someone who would volunteer to be the leader. Our robotics club "outgrew" the expertise of the teacher and enlisted the help of professionals at NASA, an engineering firm and another company--they went on to National competition and fared well.

 

[java]

To the OP, how about getting an industry to sponsor the robotics club? I am sure a local engineering or tech firm would love the publicity, and they usually have someone who would volunteer to be the leader. Our robotics club "outgrew" the expertise of the teacher and enlisted the help of professionals at NASA, an engineering firm and another company--they went on to National competition and fared well.

Oh thank you for the idea!!

 

[daisyduck123]

You do realize that there is nothing in a teacher's contract that says 'you must do extra curricular activities with the students' Teachers do extra curricular activities because they want to and it is their choice if they do or not.

All I had to do was get to this post (Post #2) & I had to read no further.

 

[chobie]

This part bothered me in the no thanks part. The coach that got the extra $1800 from the district is also getting an awards meal and a check for $250 from the players.
We thanked him throughout the season. On the Robotics teacher, we donated a set of Parts to the teacher($150 worth or stuff) last year. We would go and help set up at events. My son also VOLUNTEERED to help design a website for this particular teacher and another teacher and developed a design program that they are using in class. So yes teachers give extra- and so do parents and children.

Yes, but you should be doing extra --it's your kid! Wow, so the teacher does not have to pay for the materials out of pocket and you thank him! How dare he not continue to work for free, especially with parents like you who want to take his raise away to punish him for not working for free?

 

[Camicar]

Who among you does extra work for free? With no expectation of any return but the satisfaction of knowing that you've done a good thing? Our teachers do this every day.

Newsflash: MOST professionals do this all the time. That is part of the deal when you are a professional. If you don't want to be considered a professional, then sure, don't do the extras BUT do call yourself what you are -- an hourly-wage, union employee. You cannot both claim professional status and behave like a factory worker clocking out at the end of the shift.

And FWIW, I don't think that any of this is about money -- the teachers in my school district are among the highest paid in the state in an area which does not have the highest cost of living (but which does have among the highest property tax rates in the state). And yet, these highly-paid teachers regularly tell parents that they can't meet after 3:14pm because, "It's not in the contract. " This was the same attitude in another school district where the teachers were not as well paid. So, it's not about the money, it's about the attitude -- the non-professional attitude of "I'm paid by the hour and the minute the bell rings, I'm outta here and screw you." I used to have a lot of respect for teachers, but no more, not after 9 years of dealing with this attitude in two different school districts.

 

[yasmina]

The after school stuff is paid by a small amount- well small if you think the soccer coach decided to keep going to do it because he got $1800 for the season.
And what they are asking for (the 7% is beyond what the STATE OF NJ allows.) On the healthcare they want to eliminate their $15 copay. They have not been willing to go to the table to negotiate for the past month(or all summer because you see that wouldn't have the impact on the community the way it does during the school year)

I understand wanting a pay raise. Our teachers(nj) are mostly from PA. Why? Because they get paid nearly twice as much by working here.

And I don't mean to bash all teachers in any way. I still love many of the teachers in our district and do feel that their hands are tied by the union. But I am still angry and will vote no. I won't agree to a pay raise for 3 years so the average $55000 salary will go to $67000 by the end of the 3 years. And that is salary alone- They do get step levels of additional pay based on service commitment.

I can't imagine having a job and going in and saying I demand a 7% raise and one for all my coworkers or I am not working past the 6 hours I am in the building. In any non-union job that would get you fired without a raise. So I guess my gripe really is with the union.

There are teachers in my children's school that deserve double that $55,000. And there are teachers that deserve half. Why not get paid on merit of service?

Again these are not Volunteer positions- but the $ paid is not great so I do think those that do it are giving their services at a deeply discounted rate.

l

One thing I find interesting in particular - does your community get to vote on a proposed new contract? If so, I've never heard of that before. Or maybe you are a school board member (in which case, you are making a decision based on your own personal situation and not representing the community who voted for you)?

One other thing, you say that teachers come from PA because the pay is better? I'm guessing that these teachers come from the Philadelphia region, which has the highest teacher pays in the state (we from the Pittsburgh region are jealous ). Are you sure it's not for some other reason, such as property taxes, or cost of living, or whatever?

OK, I just looked at this:

http://php.app.com/edstaff/search.php

Not being familiar with the counties in NJ, I wasn't sure which county to look at. I looked at many of them, and in general the salaries are in line with what we see here in western PA. Of course these figures are from Oct. 06, and doesn't show cost for healthcare and other concerns.

 

[MM27]

Why not get paid on merit of service?

Because we do not work in the business world, we work with children.

 

[Kath2003]

Because we do not work in the business world, we work with children.

Indeed - how can you measure a teacher's "performance"? Test results, sure - but what if one teacher gets a bunch of kids who aren't that bright, whereas another gets a class full of real bright sparks? You can measure things like time spend doing different types of activities - but a good teacher will identify the learning styles of their classroom and adapt to them, which may result in less variation.

I'd love to see the OPs idea of how they would work out this merit-based payment scheme, please.

 

[barkley]

Newsflash: MOST professionals do this all the time. That is part of the deal when you are a professional. If you don't want to be considered a professional, then sure, don't do the extras BUT do call yourself what you are -- an hourly-wage, union employee. You cannot both claim professional status and behave like a factory worker clocking out at the end of the shift.

And FWIW, I don't think that any of this is about money -- the teachers in my school district are among the highest paid in the state in an area which does not have the highest cost of living (but which does have among the highest property tax rates in the state). And yet, these highly-paid teachers regularly tell parents that they can't meet after 3:14pm because, "It's not in the contract. " This was the same attitude in another school district where the teachers were not as well paid. So, it's not about the money, it's about the attitude -- the non-professional attitude of "I'm paid by the hour and the minute the bell rings, I'm outta here and screw you." I used to have a lot of respect for teachers, but no more, not after 9 years of dealing with this attitude in two different school districts.

i am a retired 'professional' (social work), and i know professionals in a variety of careers (information technology, law enforcement, architecture, engineering, law, speech therapy, entertainment, medicine, educators...) and for the most part NONE of us were required nor was there the expectation of doing volunteering. going to meetings-that was part of our jobs weather it fell within schedualed hours of standard work or not, symposiums, trainings-it's known as professional development and in some cases it is required to maintain professional lic.-so again 'part of my job'. many of us had opportunites to volunteer-we even had volunteer bureaus within our agencies that would faciliate opportunies for us to do so, and some did-but it was always with the mindset that it was TOTALY voluntary on our part-NOT AN EXPECTATION, NOT A REQUIREMENT. if it had been-IT WOULD'NT HAVE BEEN VOLUNTARY.

while i don't agree with the 'it's not in my contract' card being pulled to explain why a teacher (or a social worker or other professional service delivery persons) won't meet with someone or won't do something-in all honesty it often comes after years of unsuccessfully trying to explain to parents, students...that you have other items to attend to and being responded to with disbelief, disdain, sarcasm and in some cases outright hostility. saying 'it's in my contract' or 'it's department policy' takes the issues out of your hands-if the person wants to argue it further it refers them the admin.

one issue i can see with teachers or other professionals who have traditionaly done unpaid activities outside their actual 'contracts' is the issue of 'past practices' rearing it's head and working negativly for both the professional and the students/clients. if an employer can show that a person or profession has done a certain task or activity routinely (even if unpaid) over an extended period of time, it can be used to substantiate that task or activity as a part of the professional's base job duties. never mind that the professional has no training in it, and it was intialy done before greater demands were placed upon them. and although the activity is now taking valuable time from their core duties-it becomes part of doing their base job. this has been successfully used in some professions to substantiate elimination of other professionals who ARE trained and more appropriate to lead/guide/coach/train activities.

personaly i look at extracurricular activities as that-'extras'. nothing that i have the expectation are included in the base 'package' of my child's education. if a particular teacher wants to put in time outside the school day to sponsor one of these, it's not at the expense of short changing my child academicly in the classroom, AND THEY HAVE THE APPROPRIATE SKILLS/KNOWLEDGE for the subject-great. if they are, as was my experience in highschool-using instructional time to prepare for these activities ('students i'm busy today getting ready for this weekends such and such meet-just read ahead in the books, we'll catch up on what we miss next week ), requiring non participant students to use their instructional time to support these activities ('the drama club needs help constructing sets, so we're going to ignore the fact this is a humanities course that i teach and we're all going to go build sets for the next week' ), or spending so much time that they are disservising their day to day core duties ('sorry guys, i did'nt get those papers graded-late game last night', 'i know i was supposed to get together with you to help you with that math question you've got but i had to reschedual my x appt because the mathletes had a last minute cram session yesterday for the meet next week', 'guys, i'm gonna push back the unit i had you read for this week-i did'nt get a chance to put together the study guides ) then i want them to refocus on what their primary function is, work on that and remember (as my parents said to me as a kid inclined to want to do extracurriculars) 'extracurriculars come AFTER your work and family obligations'.

btw-unless a person has intimate knowledge of the consise existing and proposed contract language for an individual group of employees, i would suggest that they not jump to the conclusion that based on salary alone they are well paid. i worked for the highest paying public agency for my profession in the state of california. we had many people who commuted tremendous distances because they simply saw our salary as compared to theirs-they were in for a rude awakening when they saw that those higher salaries came with much reduced employer sponsored contributions to medical (and no coverage in many standard areas), low employer retirement contributions, provisions that require US to pay for mandated professional trainings, provisions that precluded us from taking part time employment that was the standard in our profession, and provisions that precluded us from volunteering in certain instances for certain agencies/groups we would have wanted to do. there are often trade-offs for a 'high salary' that more than offset it.

 

[Kathi OD]

The after school stuff is paid by a small amount- well small if you think the soccer coach decided to keep going to do it because he got $1800 for the season.
And what they are asking for (the 7% is beyond what the STATE OF NJ allows.) On the healthcare they want to eliminate their $15 copay. They have not been willing to go to the table to negotiate for the past month(or all summer because you see that wouldn't have the impact on the community the way it does during the school year)

I understand wanting a pay raise. Our teachers(nj) are mostly from PA. Why? Because they get paid nearly twice as much by working here.

And I don't mean to bash all teachers in any way. I still love many of the teachers in our district and do feel that their hands are tied by the union. But I am still angry and will vote no. I won't agree to a pay raise for 3 years so the average $55000 salary will go to $67000 by the end of the 3 years. And that is salary alone- They do get step levels of additional pay based on service commitment.

I can't imagine having a job and going in and saying I demand a 7% raise and one for all my coworkers or I am not working past the 6 hours I am in the building. In any non-union job that would get you fired without a raise. So I guess my gripe really is with the union.

There are teachers in my children's school that deserve double that $55,000. And there are teachers that deserve half. Why not get paid on merit of service?

Again these are not Volunteer positions- but the $ paid is not great so I do think those that do it are giving their services at a deeply discounted rate.

FYI... Teachers from PA go to NJ because it is much easier to get certified in NJ (fewer PRAXIS tests to take), NOT necessarily because the salaries are better. Whether salaries are better is a regional thing. Teachers who live in south or central Jersey are more likely to cross the river into PA where salaries are higher. As you move closer to NY, Jersey districts tend to pay more than their counterparts in PA, however it is nowhere near twice as much. Also, most (although not all) K-8 districts in NJ have lower salary scales than those in PA regardless of their location.

Are your teachers asking for 7% each year or 7% over the life of the contract? That's a big difference and I can't imagine any union asking for what amounts to 21% over the life of the contract.

Just wondering where did you get the information that the state limits the percentage increase as I've never heard of that before (not saying it isn't the case, I really just haven't heard that).