Taking your children for holidays during school is illegal in the UK

[sam_gordon]

The point is that it does not matter what statistics say or what educators/government thinks is best for my children. I pay for the service. I pay taxes. I pay a lot of taxes. My property tax bill last year far exceeded what it costs my school district to educate my three children. The school district is providing me a service, no different than dcl is providing me a service when I purchase a cruise. The school district does not own me or my children and does not have the right to tell me how to raise my children. I know they think they do, but they don't.

What they do have the right to do is say "If you're using our services, you follow our rules, or suffer the consequences." For some school systems, they have no problems with kids not attending. On the other end of the scale are systems that say kids get 0's for all work missed, or the potential of being expelled. As long as you're willing to accept the consequences, do what you want. But if your school's policy is "0's for all work missed", don't take the vacation then come back and complain because your child's GPA dropped.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Its an average over whole populations, not about individuals. That's why I question its value - because the child who misses 10 days in a single chunk for a major family trip is grouped in with the kid who skips 10 days because he just doesn't like school, the kid who misses 10 days because his family was evicted and they're "couch surfing" and can't get to class, the kid with the addicted parent who misses 10 days because he feels he needs to take care of younger siblings (or of the parent), etc. And at least in the US, the sad fact is all those bad situations combined are more common than the 2+ week family vacation. Various surveys show the average length of vacation for American workers is 4 days, 25% of workers don't get paid vacation at all, and less than 10% of the workforce takes 2 weeks of vacation in a year (not necessarily all at once). So the "positive" missing-school situations are simply outnumbered by "negative" situations that cause chronic absenteeism.

Generally speaking, no the average upper middle class vacationing family does not suffer the same consequences as kids missing due to other reasons.

But, we also can't be selective about who the rules are applied to and who they aren't (not directed at you, just saying BTW). Plus, I've seen PLENTY of comments on these threads from parents who pulled their kids for vacation only to regret it because they had more difficulty catching up than anticipated. And many who said the vacation wouldn't have been an issue, but that their child became ill after the trip missing many additional days. And the compounded impact of planned & unplanned time off was a real mess.


Bottom line, in a perfect World, we'd all be able to vacation whenever we want without any negative consequences. But, we live in an imperfect World.

 

[DopeyDame]

What they do have the right to do is say "If you're using our services, you follow our rules, or suffer the consequences." For some school systems, they have no problems with kids not attending. On the other end of the scale are systems that say kids get 0's for all work missed, or the potential of being expelled. As long as you're willing to accept the consequences, do what you want. But if your school's policy is "0's for all work missed", don't take the vacation then come back and complain because your child's GPA dropped.

I agree with everything you just wrote. Unfortunately, not all areas stop at "school policy" If you want to give my kid a 0 for missed work because I chose to take them out of school - totally understandable and well within the school's authority. When you start dragging people into court because of how they chose to raise my kids, that's a whole different ballgame all together and totally unacceptable.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

What they do have the right to do is say "If you're using our services, you follow our rules, or suffer the consequences." For some it up. chool systems, they have no problems with kids not attending. On the other end of the scale are systems that say kids get 0's for all work missed, or the potential of being expelled. As long as you're willing to accept the consequences, do what you want. But if your school's policy is "0's for all work missed", don't take the vacation then come back and complain because your child's GPA dropped.

I absolutely disagree with this. Why would a school give a child zero for missing school? The child should be given the work to do on his or her own and given the opportunity to make up the work. If the point is to educate the child, they should be given the material to make up. There are too many rigid angry people working in the school systems who like to stick it to kids. I have worked at the college level and I was very flexible and accommodating with my students. All it takes is caring about the individual's education.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Generally speaking, no the average upper middle class vacationing family does not suffer the same consequences as kids missing due to other reasons.

But, we also can't be selective about who the rules are applied to and who they aren't (not directed at you, just saying BTW). Plus, I've seen PLENTY of comments on these threads from parents who pulled their kids for vacation only to regret it because they had more difficulty catching up than anticipated. And many who said the vacation wouldn't have been an issue, but that their child became ill after the trip missing many additional days. And the compounded impact of planned & unplanned time off was a real mess.


Bottom line, in a perfect World, we'd all be able to vacation whenever we want without any negative consequences. But, we live in an imperfect World.

No one is asking for a perfect world. What I am asking for is a little flexibility and REASON. And... I am also asking the school districts to remember they work for us. Like it or not.
To make an additional comment about socioeconomics. If a struggling immigrant family wants to pull their daughter out of school occasionally to babysit, they should have the right to do that. This is a cultural difference which should be respected. It has been this way since the beginning of the public school system. It doesnt mean they are not learning anyway. My husband was an immigrant who was in and out of the schoolsystem (s), moved around a lot, did not know the language or have parents who knew the language, and he has done very well. Much better than many people who went to school every day.

 

[Colleen27]

If we're arguing the rules need to be the same for everyone, then if GIJoe's kids and Bob the Builder's kids and Nurse Nancy's kids all get to take vaycay in the middle of the year, so should everyone else's. I don't see why we don't just call every absence an absence, get rid of excused/unexcused and all the lying that goes with that system. If your kid can keep up, they move forward, if they don't, they stay behind, regardless of age, socio-economic background, or why they aren't there. Back in the day (1800s or so) that's how it was. People weren't hung up on if they were "behind" their age group, and the learning that mattered was quality learning.

The problem with that is that retention brings its own set of issues and risks, including a higher probability of dropping out of school. That's the reasoning behind many remedial, support, and special education programs - evidence supports promotion with extra help as a better approach than repeating grades.

However, retention for failure to keep up certainly makes more sense than failure for attendance violations regardless of academic performance, which is what a lot of schools are doing right now.

Very insightful. Watch the documentary Rich Hill and you'll see the truth of these negative situations and why we need rules on absenteeism.

Absolutely we need rules. I'm not sure we need "zero tolerance", though, or criminal penalties over school attendance. The latter especially aren't helping anyone. I think the problem is the rise of one-size-fits-all being held up as a sensible/acceptable way of administering schools. The logic that declares a week's family vacation the same as just not showing up every Monday is the same logic that declares the bully and his victim equally guilty of fighting. Any common sense or consideration of context is being stripped away, and administrators are increasingly bound by policies that leave no room for the exercise of good judgment.

 

[sam_gordon]

I absolutely disagree with this. Why would a school give a child zero for missing school? The child should be given the work to do on his or her own and given the opportunity to make up the work. If the point is to educate the child, they should be given the material to make up. There are too many rigid angry people working in the school systems who like to stick it to kids. I have worked at the college level and I was very flexible and accommodating with my students. All it takes is caring about the individual's education.

Because the student didn't turn in the work on time? Sickness is one thing, that's beyond a student or parent's control. Same with a death in the family or missing school for "religious" reasons. Those would all be "excused" absences. Someone (in our hypothetical system) decided vacations are NOT excused. Just like skipping school. If Johnny decides not to go to school and play hooky, but Jane goes on vacation, Jane should be allowed to make up the work, but Johnny shouldn't? If you allow Johnny to make up the work, then why have kids go to school at all?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

No one is asking for a perfect world. What I am asking for is a little flexibility and REASON. And... I am also asking the school districts to remember they work for us. Like it or not.
To make an additional comment about socioeconomics. If a struggling immigrant family wants to pull their daughter out of school occasionally to babysit, they should have the right to do that. This is a cultural difference which should be respected. It has been this way since the beginning of the public school system. It doesnt mean they are not learning anyway. My husband was an immigrant who was in and out of the schoolsystem (s), moved around a lot, did not know the language or have parents who knew the language, and he has done very well. Much better than many people who went to school every day.

And then eveyone complains that our schools are "failing our children" because we score lower than other 1st World nations.

The problem is people want to have their cake & eat it too. It's a no-win situation for the schools.

 

[BostonJP]

No one is asking for a perfect world. What I am asking for is a little flexibility and REASON. And... I am also asking the school districts to remember they work for us. Like it or not.

With all due respect, this sounds like a very entitled attitude. When you get pulled over for speeding do you remind the officer that your taxes pay for their salary?

They don't work for us. They work for our children. And ideally their curriculum is created in the best interests of our children.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Because the student didn't turn in the work on time? Sickness is one thing, that's beyond a student or parent's control. Same with a death in the family or missing school for "religious" reasons. Those would all be "excused" absences. Someone (in our hypothetical system) decided vacations are NOT excused. Just like skipping school. If Johnny decides not to go to school and play hooky, but Jane goes on vacation, Jane should be allowed to make up the work, but Johnny shouldn't? If you allow Johnny to make up the work, then why have kids go to school at all?

I do think schools should allow students to work from home and come in for testing. But they do not want to do that because of teacher's unions. Maybe one day that will change. I paid for the curriculum, why cant I learn it at home if I want to? And on the topic of religion, what if I am not religious? or if my religion is Disney and I make a pilgrimage every year? Why should someone who is "religious" get special treatment?

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Our schools are not failing. Thats the media twisting the truth. Most of those "studies" do not compare apples to apples. In Germany, for example, very few people even get to complete what we consider high school. Most of them get sidelined and finish school by tenth grade or earlier. In the us everyone gets the opportunity to fulfill their potential. That results in overall lower averages, but as mark twain said, "there are lies, damned lies and statistics."

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

With all due respect, this sounds like a very entitled attitude. When you get pulled over for speeding do you remind the officer that your taxes pay for their salary?

They don't work for us. They work for our children. And ideally their curriculum is created in the best interests of our children.

Of course its not entitled. Its just the facts. They do work for us. And the police work for us too. In fact everyone in government works for taxpayers. We need to start thinking like this or we will end up like Greece.

 

[sam_gordon]

I do think schools should allow students to work from home and come in for testing. But they do not want to do that because of teacher's unions. Maybe one day that will change. I paid for the curriculum, why cant I learn it at home if I want to? And on the topic of religion, what if I am not religious? or if my religion is Disney and I make a pilgrimage every year? Why should someone who is "religious" get special treatment?

They do. It's called "home schooling".

 

[gwynne]

Our schools are not failing. Thats the media twisting the truth. Most of those "studies" do not compare apples to apples. In Germany, for example, very few people even get to complete what we consider high school. Most of them get sidelined and finish school by tenth grade or earlier. In the us everyone gets the opportunity to fulfill their potential. That results in overall lower averages, but as mark twain said, "there are lies, damned lies and statistics."

Oh my. I'll try to simplify this.
In the US, most everyone can get basically the same high school diploma. And it means? Sometimes pretty much nothing, other times it's good up to impressive.

Are you thinking the work done by the average American high school student work equals the work done in a German Gymnasium? Nope. Not even close. Gymnasium has much higher overall standards. It is a rigorous program.

There are school levels below Gymnasium that are either for teaching trades, or allow a student to transition into gymnasium later, if their proficiency increases.
I see teaching valuable trade skills as a good thing. I think it's difficult to compare US High School to German Education Tracks. They are very, very different systems.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Bottom line, our school system is more interested in federal $$$$, than educating our children. IMHO

 

[sam_gordon]

Bottom line, our school system is more interested in federal $$$$, than educating our children. IMHO

So they shouldn't get federal $$$?

Or, if you think they should get federal money, how do you determine how much $$ each school gets?

 

[TLSnell1981]

So they shouldn't get federal $$$?

Or, if you think they should get federal money, how do you determine how much $$ each school gets?

Oh good grief! Who said, they shouldn't get federal $$$$? They are more interested in buttocks in a chair, than teaching our kids. Let's not forget "test scores". There's a huge difference in educating a child and teaching them, how to pass a test. The system is a huge mess. IMO

 

[sam_gordon]

Oh good grief! Who said, they shouldn't get federal $$$$? They are more interested in buttocks in a chair, than teaching our kids. Let's not forget "test scores". There's a huge difference in educating a child and teaching them, how to pass a test. The system is a huge mess. IMO

And how do you determine how much money to give each school if not how many kids are attending?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

With all due respect, this sounds like a very entitled attitude. When you get pulled over for speeding do you remind the officer that your taxes pay for their salary?

They don't work for us. They work for our children. And ideally their curriculum is created in the best interests of our children.

Or, maybe people who think they are exceptional drivers should be able to ignore the speed limit. After all, some people drive better at 85 than others do at 45. Setting a one size fits all limit of 65 is obviously unfair to those who've demonstrated an ability to safely drive 85. So, clearly the rule shouldn't apply to them even if it is necessary for others

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Of course its not entitled. Its just the facts. They do work for us. And the police work for us too. In fact everyone in government works for taxpayers. We need to start thinking like this or we will end up like Greece.

The problem in Greece is quite the opposite. They believe government can provide EVERYTHING.