Stop being silly over PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN

[raidermatt]

Tongue in cheek actually means facetious or in a joking manner, not exagerrated. One way to be facetious is through exagerration, but again, you also continue to dispute the idea that it was popular. Can't have it both ways.

The contradiction cue I was referring to was a Monty Python reference that's been used around here before.

But what remains true is that until your last post, the sum total of your "argument" that Toad was not popular consisted of "no it wasn't". That's a contradiction, not an argument.

Of course, you now say that your claims that it wasn't popular were exagerrated, and that the spokesperson who said it was popular is lying. Hence you're now contraditing yourself.

But the SAME ARTICLE and those people whose faith he puts to properly define a "popular ride" contradict him as well....

Quote:
"...some parents have complained that it is too scary for small children, and some visitors have complained that it is outdated and technologically inferior to other Disney rides."

Actually, no, that's not a contradiction, or even evidence against Toad's popularity. You can take virtually every attraction in WDW, especially the most popular ones, and find that "some parents" complained it was too scary. Same with "outdated inferior technology", especially with the FL dark rides. The 3D attractions and all of the dark rides scare some kids at some point, and some of those parents complain. Toad's technology is certainly no more outdated than Snow White's, and with 17 million visitors (MK's attendance in 1997), you can find complaints about just about anything.

That's a justification for closing what they had just admitted was a popular ride.

Similar to the justifcation provided when Early Entry was cancelled in favor of Character Caravan. The key difference there of course being we know they were lying about EE not being popular, and they also provided a replacement that was far less popular.

So my question is this, why am I supposed to take the articles' assessments of the popularity of Toad as gospel, but am then not to believe their reasons for why Pooh was built there?

Nobody is saying anything should be taken as gospel. But its still the best evidence available. Also, the Toad topic has come up off and on for years, and the question of its popularity has rarely been a point of contention. No, it was not and is not (at DL) a top tier ride in terms of popularity. But it also wasn't and isn't one of the least popular rides either. Its not even the least popular dark ride in DL's FL, nor was it at MK's FL when it closed.

Therefore popularity doesn't even come close to completely explaining the move. The unwillingness to actually add a show building and the desire to sell Pooh merchandise have to be considered, at the very least, significant factors in the decision.

 

[Sarangel]

Alright gentlebeings, we're now past 5 pages of arguing about why Toad was replaced by Pooh, and I'm seeing very little constructive discussion (until this last couple of posts). Either argue in a rational debate mode, or give it up as a difference of opinion and go play on the other threads.

Sarangel

P.S. remember that the rule is to be nice to each other - I let YoHo's "schmuck" line slide because he was universal on that point (and included himself in that category). If you can't be nice, at least be civil.

 

[dbm20th]

The point is that those two quotes I offer present two reasons that they closed Toad. None of them have to do with whether or not they wanted to sell Pooh merchandise. My point here is that if we except these sources as proof of Toad's popularity, we must also except these reasons as proof of why they were closed. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say that they prove Toad was wildly popular, or at least not unpopular, but then claim they are lying about why they built Pooh. The source is either credible or not. It can't only be credible when you want it to be. Now raidermatt, I'm not suggesting that is what you are doing. I'm only pointing out the obvious falicy in this "proof".

I'm glad you have at least admitted Toad "was not and is not (at DL) a top tier ride in terms of popularity.". Now, is Pooh more popular? It appears it is, which was the point of the Mouseplanet piece I included. That was the point I so grossly exaggerated in the first place. You may believe they did this to sell Pooh merchandise. I'm saying there are other reasons.

I'll take Sarangel's suggestion, that's enough for me.

 

[MJMcBride]

And for God's sake, I've said repeatedly that Snow white is the least popular ride in fantasyland. It's a C ticket ride, Why does it need to be more popular then Jungle Cruise, POTC or HM. What point are you trying make here? Or are you just randomly throwing stuff on the board in hopes something will stick?

It does not need to be more popular. All I said throughout this thread is that Toad was not that popular. And that if it was that popular (like a POTC or HM) I don't think it would have been removed.

Thats was all I ever really said or try to say anyway. You're telling me that popularity had absolutely nothing to do with the decision to chuck the ride. OK. I stand by opinion that they would never drop something as popular as POTC and HM because (I think you would agree here) it would be bad business from both a public point of view and a financial one.

 

[raidermatt]

The point is that those two quotes I offer present two reasons that they closed Toad.

As I said though, the problem is the two quotes aren't equal. Saying its popular is a universal statement. Saying "some parents" or "some guests", as the quote does, is a far less conclusive statement. There could literally have been 2 complaints, and further, it says nothing about whether Toad got MORE of those types of complaints than other attractions.

Given the words chosen, the second quotes do not present any proof that they are the real reasons the ride was closed. That's why both parts of the quote could be true and the assertion that merchandise sales had a lot to do with the decision can still hold up.

Is Pooh more popular? I'm not sure, but even assuming it is, that misses the point. If popularity was the reason for the change, it fails to account for the fact that rides that were certainly less popular than Toad were not replaced.


MJM, if your only point is that Toad would not have been replaced if it had PotC or HM popularity/status, then yes, I can agree. A different location would have been found. However, the decision still involved more than just popularity, and that would have held true in looking for another location as well.

 

[YoHo]

Thats was all I ever really said or try to say anyway. You're telling me that popularity had absolutely nothing to do with the decision to chuck the ride. OK. I stand by opinion that they would never drop something as popular as POTC and HM because (I think you would agree here) it would be bad business from both a public point of view and a financial one.

No one was trying to suggest that Mr. Toad was as popular as POTC or HM.and even if it was, it certainly doesn't represent the same level of investment in construction and manpower to operate and maintain as those E-tickets. Again though, I'm not sure what the point of bringing this up was. Pooh isn't as popular as those rides either. Pooh has a much slower load then either of those rides or even the poor dearly departed Toad, so it's line is a poor indicator. And of course, in Disneyland, Pooh is universally reviled by young and old alike and here, it replaced an unpopular attraction.

So again, your point is made, but what was the point in bring it up. what does this prove?

Oh, and Snow White is way less popular then Toad or Pooh, it's one of the least popular Dark rides. It also has been considered one of the scariest for youngsters since 1955.

 

[DancingBear]

...if it was that popular (like a POTC or HM) I don't think it would have been removed.

Wow, really going out on a limb with that one, eh?

 

[MJMcBride]

So again, your point is made, but what was the point in bring it up. what does this prove?

Oh, and Snow White is way less popular then Toad or Pooh, it's one of the least popular Dark rides. It also has been considered one of the scariest for youngsters since 1955.

Nothing really. It was a simple remark about how Mr. Toad was not that poplular or esle they wouldn't have chucked it. You're actually the one who went hog wild about how it was only to sell Pooh stuff. My only (albeit meager) point was that Mr. Toad was a ride that could go.

By the way, I agree. Snow White is lame. They should have dumped that a long time ago.

 

[MJMcBride]

Wow, really going out on a limb with that one, eh?

Now now didn't you read Sarangel's post?

 

[Sarangel]

Wow, really going out on a limb with that one, eh?

I was thinking slightly nicer than this...

I mean it, if y'all can't play nice, I'll close the thread.

Last warning.

Sarangel

 

[DancingBear]

Mea culpa, mea culpa.

 

[dbm20th]

Is it possible to get back to Pirates? I hear Peg-leg Pete is gone! Can anyone confirm that?

 

[YoHo]

No No, the topic of this thread is to NOT be silly about Pirates, so we have to be silly about Pooh/Toad and I have a lot of pooh/toad left to fling

MJMcBride, I'm still not sure how the relative popularity of Toad vs. HM/POTC pertains to why Disney chose tha ride to Demo. They chose it, because it was big enough to house a ride and a shop. Thus sales drove it.

The more important issue is why disney insisted on replacing something rather then just adding another ride.
Why couldn't we have Toad and Pooh?

 

[YoHo]

So, said former poster pointed out to me (I had forgotten) that in 1993, WDW rehabbed the ride and replaced the 2-person 1 seat cars with 4 person 2 seat cars.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/omniluxe/mtwr.htm

So, in 1993 the ride was popular enough to require a capacity expansion in the cars, but then 5 years later, it wasn't popular enough to keep open? I find that unlikely.

 

[MJMcBride]

No No, the topic of this thread is to NOT be silly about Pirates, so we have to be silly about Pooh/Toad and I have a lot of pooh/toad left to fling

MJMcBride, I'm still not sure how the relative popularity of Toad vs. HM/POTC pertains to why Disney chose tha ride to Demo. They chose it, because it was big enough to house a ride and a shop. Thus sales drove it.

The more important issue is why disney insisted on replacing something rather then just adding another ride.
Why couldn't we have Toad and Pooh?

Actually when you come down to it, we don't disagree all that much. The only real difference is this I think:

You say they chose Toad because it was big enough to house a ride and shop. I say they chose Toad because it could house a ride and shop and its not one of the most popular attractions.

I wish we had both. By the way, having never been to Tokyo, why is that ride better? Is that the one thats not on a track?

 

[Another Voice]

You say they chose Toad because it was big enough to house a ride and shop. I say they chose Toad because it could house a ride and shop and its not one of the most popular attractions.

And because the 'Toad' building already had the electrical infrastrucure for a busbar ride system. Had Disney choosen the more expensive boat ride through The Hundred Acres Woods, then guests at Hong Kong Disneyland would likely be singing 'It's A Small World' today while posters on this board typed about how boring, out-of-date and unpopular the old IASW was...

Disney does things differntly these days. The goal is to maximize revenue per square foot, not maximize guest enjoyment (although happy guests spend way, way more than unhappy ones). Does any really think they're plopping in the new 'Pirates' figures just to make the show better?

 

[pedro2112]

Actually when you come down to it, we don't disagree all that much. The only real difference is this I think:

You say they chose Toad because it was big enough to house a ride and shop. I say they chose Toad because it could house a ride and shop and its not one of the most popular attractions.

I've read this entire thread, and I think the disagreement is deeper than that. It seems as if some were disgusted with Disney's decision to get rid of Toad and replace it with Pooh. Not because they really loved Toad, but because the only reason Disney did what it did was not because they felt Pooh would be a "better" ride or experience, but because they wanted to pull in more kiddo's who have piglet fetishes (such as my DD7), and then they can whine and cry to their parents to buy them the plush on the way out of the ride. While I don't necessarily disagree with making decisions in a business based on the bottom line, I would have to agree with those that are deeply cynical of the whole "pooh" thing at WDW. The ride really really sucks, big time. It is clearly not a significant improvement over Toad. If they are going to replace an older ride, for the love of everything holy, put some effort into it and make it a good ride. Is that too much to ask for?

 

[YoHo]

Actually when you come down to it, we don't disagree all that much. The only real difference is this I think:

You say they chose Toad because it was big enough to house a ride and shop. I say they chose Toad because it could house a ride and shop and its not one of the most popular attractions.

I wish we had both. By the way, having never been to Tokyo, why is that ride better? Is that the one thats not on a track?

But Toad was one of the most popular attractions in fantasyland
Hense why 5 years earlier it went through a capacity increase.

Hopefully someone has the link to the video file from Tokyo pooh. Yes, it's the one with no track.

I thought everyone discussing this understood about Tokyo Pooh. Since it's been covered pretty well here.

 

[MJMcBride]

Disney does things differnetly these days. The goal is to maximize revenue per square foot, not maximize guest enjoyment. Does any really think they're plopping in the new 'Pirates' figures just to make the show better?

I think the goal was always about maximizing revenue. I think Walt and gang thought maximizing revenue = maximizing guest enjoyment.

I agree the new figures are about cross marketing first. But they probably want to add the figures from the movies for the kids who love the films. I also understand they're adding some special effects that I would guess they are adding to "make the show better."

 

[DancingBear]

http://www.barrybedford.com/tokyodisney/index.html