Stop being silly over PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN

[raidermatt]

OK, we all know that Toad was NOT a popular ride at WDW.

No, we don't. YOU think YOU know. There's a difference.

Is there really a need to debate this?

Apparently. Of course, simply saying "no it wasn't" is not really taking part in a debate, or argument, but simply a contradiction. (I'll let somebody else throw in the evidence to support that...)

We also all know that Pooh IS a popular ride at WDW. Why are we debating that?

Nobody is debating that, or even contradicting it, at least not in the last 3 pages, which is all I read. The issues raised have to do with why it replaced Toad and that it is a lesser version of its predecessor in Japan.

The question comes down to making money.

Well, of course it does. There are quite a few different opinions about how to do that, even within the same industries.

Mr. Toad had a fast moving ride system in WDW...so does Imagination. That doesn't mean its popular

Of course not. It wasn't presented as proof that its popular. A fast ride system does, however, mean that a short line is a not a good indication that the ride is not popular, which is the context in which it was mentioned. Do you disagree with this concept?

What's a disney person going to say. Our rides suck nobody likes them. Did that disney spokesperson say the only reason we're canning this wonderful, fabulous Mr. Toad's ride is so we can put in a Pooh store. I'm thinking not.

Well, usually they don't say anything, officially, about the closing attraction's popularity. Or, they tell us "you told us what you wanted, and we listened... Character Caravan!".

So why admit you are closing a popluar attraction? What purpose does that serve, unless it was simply a fact that could not be ignored and therefore had to be explained?

As for why they wouldn't say "We did this to bring you a Pooh store" when that was true as well, certainly you see the difference, yes?

Never thought I would be insulted for not liking Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. That's a first!

Ah, and here we get to part of the problem... It matters not one bit whether you, or any of the rest of us, like or dislike Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. If you simply said "I'm glad they closed Mr. Toad because I didn't like it.", nobody could debate that with you.

The point is the ride's overall popularity and why it was axed in favor of Pooh, and that's what's been discussed. Yet you think you've been insulted because you didn't like the ride. Hmmmm...

...as of RIGHT now the only actual REAL evidence (rather than opinions) has been the articles YOHO presented 10 or so posts ago. Initially I agreed with your point,DBM, unfortunately you have put absolutely NO evidence that supports your point... which makes me believe YOHO's point is more valid therefore being correct.

Wow! An (apparently) unbiased evaluation of the evidence!

Not that it was done for my benefit, but thank you. This was the first time I've read this board in about a month, and after seeing the "debate" I was going to go right back into hibernation, until I saw that somebody was actually looking at what was being presented and not focusing on whether they liked a ride themselves.

So if anybody doesn't like my post, blame 2Xited.

 

[2Xited4Disney]

So if anybody doesn't like my post, blame 2Xited.

HAHAHAH Blame me..... Honestly, I just wanted to be the voice of reason.



On a side note..
...As you said I was not "Focusing on whether or not I liked the ride(s)", well that is because I hated them both. I can remember waiting in insanely long ride only to be scared out of my mind (i was 9)on Toad and then in August I wait in insanely long line to sit in a honey pot and look at cardboard cut outs. Pooh reminds me of one of the rides you can go on at a carnival

 

[dbm20th]

On a side note..
...As you said I was not "Focusing on whether or not I liked the ride(s)", well that is because I hated them both. I can remember waiting in insanely long ride only to be scared out of my mind (i was 9)on Toad and then in August I wait in insanely long line to sit in a honey pot and look at cardboard cut outs. Pooh reminds me of one of the rides you can go on at a carnival

As for me, I like Mr. Toad, especially because it was the only ride in Fantasyland that didn't have a ridiculous line. But it was fast paced, well sort of, and lots of fun. Pooh just plain stinks

 

[dbm20th]

raidermatt...

I do spologize for my tongue-in-cheek remarks about Mr. Toad being "NOT popular". I suppose that if one goes to WDW in August, every ride is popular. My experience contradicts Yo-Ho's point about Mr. Toad's popularity, but the pont truly was about wether or not Pooh was the right decision. From a mony-making angle, I can't see how anyone can see otherwise.

Let me remind everyone how this started. Yo-Ho insisted that Toad was only removed because of WDW's desire to sell Pooh merchandise. His only proof is that a Disney spokesperson, who could never be considered unbiased about anything, said that Mr. Toad was popular. Of course, I don't remember a WDW spokesperson calling anything unpopular but that is not the point.

Why Yo-Ho decided to insult me is really for him to say, but let me just say that I DO like Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and wish it never left. Again, that was a bit of sarcasm you missed there.

One more thing, If you didn't want to be out of hibernation then I apologize. If you did, Welcome Back!

 

[2Xited4Disney]

Why Yo-Ho decided to insult me is really for him to say

I don't believe Yo-ho insulted you (on purpose). What he said was "And yet, they're still more trustworthy then schmucks on the internet." Meaning that you can not take someones (anyones) view from a message board or their own personal website and say "this is fact".

For example If I were to start a post saying " Walt Disney World is going to build a fifth park because Animal Kingdom is going to get crowded because of EE" Then someone said well that guy from disboards said it is going to happen so it must be true.

To have a repretable source one must extract information (facts) from an unbiased source.

You, yourself, proved YOHO's point by posting something from mousesavers. Don't get me wrong I LOVE mousesavers and check it about 3-4 times a week, but it is VERY hard to argue that mousesavers is an unbiased source, I mean the person who runs the website clearly puts ALOT of time and and effort into informing the public on a topic they LOVE, (Disney),



ps. I know the person who runs mousesavers checks disboards frequently. Please understand I was only trying to prove a point. I hope I got my words across correctly. If not I will most certainly re structure my post

 

[dbm20th]

To have a repretable source one must extract information (facts) from an unbiased source.

Yet his unbiased source was a Disney spokesperson? As quoted by a paper, but still a spokesperson. That is probably the only person more biased than Mouseplanet, which does not work for Disney.

Again, I don't care if he turns to insults or not. It is not the first time Yo-Ho and I have had such an exchange and probably won't be the last. That's part of the fun, I suppose. I was just clarifying that my comment about him qinsulting me because I don't like Mr. Toad was just sarcasm.

Yo-Ho can fire away all he wants. Perhaps I egg him on. I'm not the only one who could be considered guilty of that.

Listen, we are totally off the point here. This really has nothing to do with whether or not someone can prove the popularity of Mr. Toad. Only the man holding attendance numbers could do that. I disagreed with Yo-Ho's assessment that Toad was closed only to sell Pooh merchandise. Something that Yo-Ho's now famous spokesperson also disagrees with.

 

[MJMcBride]

I don't believe Yo-ho insulted you (on purpose).

Actually, YOHO tends to insult a lot of people (such as me) with his posts. I assume its on purpose. But I can take it.

I still say Mr. Toad's was not that popular. Sure, it was fast loading and you could get on it rather easily. (I've always gone to WDW during the "off" months). But, the minority is sorry to see it go. Granted that minority is vocal and dedicated, but its still a minority. And I agree, that Pooh is no great shakes.

Now, I want to really tick Yoho off: I can't wait for Jack Sparrow to take his righful place as the centerpiece of POTC.

 

[dbm20th]

Now, I want to really tick Yoho off: I can't wait for Jack Sparrow to take his righful place as the centerpiece of POTC.

Which actually was the point of this whole thing, if I remember correctly.

Need only look at my avatar to see how I feel about this one.

 

[DancingBear]

I still say Mr. Toad's was not that popular. Sure, it was fast loading and you could get on it rather easily. (I've always gone to WDW during the "off" months). But, the minority is sorry to see it go. Granted that minority is vocal and dedicated, but its still a minority.

My guess is that only a minority of guests would be sorry to see any number of attractions replaced. Is that a true measure of what makes a ride "unpopular"?

I never was a big Toad fan, and I enjoy Pooh as a "C" Ticket (but would love to have the Tokyo version). I agree, though, with what I think YoHo's real point was, which is that the decision to replace a ride should only be made with the objective of enhancing the guest experience, and not because (1) it's easier to sell a ride replacement internally than a ride addition, and (2) you can plant a store at the end of the ride.

 

[Empare]

You know what? I am looking forward to the change on POTC. I have always enjoyed this ride and of course the air conditioning. Yes Disney made a good movie and of course Johnny Depp is handsome but more importantly POTC is a bit...dated. POTC needs a fresh coat of paint, something to embrace the old and welcome the new. I don't think they will be changing any scenes or songs just adding more to them. That's my 2 doubloons

 

[YoHo]

A lot of people have thin skins and are too quick to cry insult.

2Xited obviously was able to parse the sentence and realized that I was saying

"All people on the internet are schmucks."
I'm am pretty harsh though.

And yes DB, you've got it down. Disney replaced a ride instead of adding a ride. You know Snow White is from what I've heard one of the least popular rides in Fantasyland. I wonder why that wasn't closed instead?

Oh yeah, because we wouldn't want to reduce our princess options. cha ching.


The fact is, that we have a handful of anicdotes from Schmucks on the internet (and yes, you are less reliable then newspapers and Spokespeople) versus a news source. And you're only argument is that Newspapers are untrustworthy. That liberal media bias against pooh and for toad a suppose.

And now we learn that MJM's experience is only in the off season which means you have no relevent experience.

This is an awesome debate, I should just stop posting. If I sit here and twiddle my thumbs long enough, you'll eventually put your own foot in your mouth.


Anyway, I'd be happy to see Jack Sparrow go into Florida, but they should leave the original, longer, in all ways except maybe the waterfall better DL version alone.

Two different stories, then people would be encouraged to go to the west coast.

 

[Another Voice]

I disagreed with Yo-Ho's assessment that Toad was closed only to sell Pooh merchandise.

Your point, as best as I understand it, is that 'Mr. Toad' was unpopular therefore Disney decided to remove that ride and replace it with a one that was going to be more popular.

In reality, Disney wanted a 'Winnie the Pooh' ride built, both to meet guest wishes (who have always wanted a 'Pooh' ride) and to sell lots and lots merchandise.

The building that 'Mr. Toad' happened to be in fit Disney's requirements the best. Had that space been occupied by a 'Cinderella' ride then the princess would have been tossed out into the trashpile just like 'Toad' was. Once Disney decided they weren't go to spend the money to construct a new show building (which would have been the correct answer), someone had to loose. It was 'Toad'. It's exactly the same situation with 'Pooh' at Disneyland (where now The Hundred Acre Woods is smack in the middle of the rural American South).

It goes back to the big problem with the 'Pirates' changes. The addition of the characters aren't happening to make the ride better, they're happening to sell more Johnny Depp pillowcases. It's a commerical - a product placement - in the middle of the show. How well it turns out is still an open question, but past history tells us chances are the 'Take a Wench for a Bride' sign in the auction scene is about to be replaced by a 'Buy the Special Collectors Edition DVD' banner.

 

[MJMcBride]

"All people on the internet are schmucks."

If I sit here and twiddle my thumbs long enough, you'll eventually put your own foot in your mouth.

Hey look, Yoho proved his own point

 

[MJMcBride]

The building that 'Mr. Toad' happened to be in fit Disney's requirements the best. Had that space been occupied by a 'Cinderella' ride then the princess would have been tossed out into the trashpile just like 'Toad' was.

Thats a terrible example. Cinderella is a popular character. I doubt they would have removed her. Even if you just want to believe that Pooh's there to move merchandise. Cinderella moves merchandise too.

The problem with Toad is that time passed it by. People didn't know who that was. It was a cute little ride that was expendable. I know some people loved it.

As for not being there during the highest peak seasons, I'm not sure how that effects my judgement on this, but if YoHo says it does. Well then, gosh darnit, it must be so, right? right?

 

[MJMcBride]

My guess is that only a minority of guests would be sorry to see any number of attractions replaced.

I don't think a minority would be sorry to see POTC, HM, IASMAA, Peter Pan, or the mountains go. But I understand your point. I just think if Toad was there today, it would be behind a majority of the attractions in popularity.

 

[YoHo]

Thats a terrible example. Cinderella is a popular character. I doubt they would have removed her. Even if you just want to believe that Pooh's there to move merchandise. Cinderella moves merchandise too.

The problem with Toad is that time passed it by. People didn't know who that was. It was a cute little ride that was expendable. I know some people loved it.

As for not being there during the highest peak seasons, I'm not sure how that effects my judgement on this, but if YoHo says it does. Well then, gosh darnit, it must be so, right? right?

You just keep on saying that, but the FACT is that you have produced nothing to back your point up. Nothing at all. Just your opinion.

 

[MJMcBride]

You just keep on saying that, but the FACT is that you have produced nothing to back your point up. Nothing at all. Just your opinion.

OK.

Of course, you're dismissing the mouseplanet article just because it disagrees with your point. Thats a shock.

How popular do you think it was? You must agree it was not as popular as POTC, HM, any of the mountains, Peter Pan's Flight, Dumbo or Jungle Cruise? Was it as popular as say Snow White? Maybe. Is Pooh more popular now?

Why do I have the feeling their gonna lock this thread soon?

 

[YoHo]

OK.

Of course, you're dismissing the mouseplanet article just because it disagrees with your point. Thats a shock.

How popular do you think it was? You must agree it was not as popular as POTC, HM, any of the mountains, Peter Pan's Flight, Dumbo or Jungle Cruise? Was it as popular as say Snow White? Maybe. Is Pooh more popular now?

Why do I have the feeling their gonna lock this thread soon?

Dude, the mouse planet Article doesn't disagree with my point at all in any way. That article doesn't say a @#$% thing about Toad. I don't understand why you think it does unless you can read some imaginary words I don't see.


And for God's sake, I've said repeatedly that Snow white is the least popular ride in fantasyland. It's a C ticket ride, Why does it need to be more popular then Jungle Cruise, POTC or HM. What point are you trying make here? Or are you just randomly throwing stuff on the board in hopes something will stick?




In either case, a former poster here that I was discussing this with suggested I look through the archives of RADP from 1997 (on google) and see what people were saying then. It's amayzing how conventional wisdom changes. When Toad was being closed, nobody questioned it's popularity.

Interesting the rationalizations that are generated to justify your opinion.

 

[raidermatt]

I do spologize for my tongue-in-cheek remarks about Mr. Toad being "NOT popular".

So you saying it was not popular was tongue-in-cheek? Yet you continue to dispute the spokesperson who says it was popular? Its difficult to debate, or even contradict (I'm very disappointed in some of you for not taking my cue on this...), your statement when you seem to be doing it yourself.

I've never encountered anyone until now who believed that the Snow White ride is/was ever more popular than Mr. Toad's. I know that's not "proof", but really, if we can't even agree that at the least, Toad was not the least popualar FL dark ride, I'm not sure how we can proceed in a reasonable manner.

And if it was not the least popular dark ride, then clearly there was more that went into the decision than trying to please guests. The fact that Pooh is a lesser version than its Tokyo predecessor, and the fact that a Pooh shop was added, both indicate that merchandise sales played a significant part in the move.

While I'm sure some are happy about having the store, I'm pretty sure most would have been happier to have a better attraction instead, while still being able to get their Pooh plush elsewhere. Certainly a new show building, as AV suggested, would have been an even more "crowd pleasing" solution.

As for the question of whether Cinderella would have been shown the door if it had been her ride and not Toad's, I do agree it would have been far less likely to happen. But the reason is again merchandising. The princess line is one of Disney's biggest, and Cinderella is at the heart of that. Snow White, though a lesser figure in that line, is still a significant piece as well, hence another reason it would be unlikely to close.

I know it stinks to come to terms with the fact that these types of factors makeup such a large part of Disney's decision making process now as opposed to yesteryear. But ignoring it or even minimalizing it won't make it go away.

But I understand your point. I just think if Toad was there today, it would be behind a majority of the attractions in popularity.

Maybe, but saying its somewhere below the 50th percentile doesn't exactly prove the point.


On the PotC thing, as I've said before, I like the idea of sprucing up the ride, adding updated effects, etc. Frankly, it is long overdue, even if the ride does remain very popular.

I'm less enthused about the character changes, as it screams of another marketing driven move, as opposed to a "Show" driven move. But if executed well, it might be fine. It's just that based on Disney's recent track record with ride "updates", I'm not betting the house that the execution will be strong.

What's even more disturbing is the idea of remaking the ride in order to promote a movie's initial release (PotC2). I know its unlikely, but if the sequels fall flat, we're likely stuck with the ride changes for a long time, given how difficult it is to get funding for ride updates. Further, the timing means the whole thing is very marketing-driven, and again, that's not who shoud be captaining this ship. (And yes, I like the first movie very much.)

 

[dbm20th]

Tongue-in-cheek means exaggerating, raidermatt, not lying. I don't count the attendance, and would suppose Yo-Ho doesn't either. What I was doing was trying to point that fact out. Perhaps it was missed on you, and for that I apologize.

Your cue was lost because the contradiction comes long before I ever said anything, and was obviously missed by you as well. This whole thing started when Yo-Ho used an article whose basis was a Disney spokesperson to prove the point that Toad was popular, and therefore its popularity was not the reason it was taken away. He then concluded it was removed to sell Pooh stuff. But the SAME ARTICLE and those people whose faith he puts to properly define a "popular ride" contradict him as well....

"...some parents have complained that it is too scary for small children, and some visitors have complained that it is outdated and technologically inferior to other Disney rides."

Which also comes pretty close to contradicting the popularity notion, but I digress. and...

...On the other hand, we're constantly looking for ways to freshen up a park that is 25 years old.

So my question is this, why am I supposed to take the articles' assessments of the popularity of Toad as gospel, but am then not to believe their reasons for why Pooh was built there? These quotes may not support my theory, but the also don't support Yo-Ho's either. In fact, they proove him wrong. The difference is, I am not using a contradicting article as "proof" of my theory.

Yo-Ho said...

If I sit here and twiddle my thumbs long enough, you'll eventually put your own foot in your mouth.

That trend was started by you, sir. When you decided to forward theories in direct contradiction to your own.