Spin-off - AP vs Dual Enrollment

[Colleen27]

For those of you with high schoolers, college students, or recent grads... What is your opinion on the relative value of advanced placement and dual enrollment options?

We're still weighing DD's high school options and one of the sticking points is the AP/DE question. Our local public school is small and shrinking, so they've had trouble getting enough kids enrolled in AP classes to run sections of even the common/basic AP courses (Eng Lit, Amer History, Bio). What they've done when they can't justify an AP section is encourage kids interested in the AP class to take a similar class through the dual enrollment arrangement with the local community college, usually online because of the distance to the CC campus. Having taken AP courses when I was in high school and done my first two years at that community college, I'm not convinced that's a good trade-off. I don't think freshman level courses at the community college are really college-level; my AP courses were more difficult. And I wonder if admissions offices are likely to see it the same way.

In the end the credits earned aren't likely to help DD at all - only her probable safety school will accept the transfer credits and I don't think either of her current top choices accept AP scores for anything more than placement. So my main concern is whether one has an advantage over the other for college admissions and scholarship purposes. Would a strong student be better off in a school that offers plenty of AP choices, or does dual enrollment look just as good on the transcript?

 

[SC Minnie]

DD is in her 3rd year of college. She went in with 26 credits between AP and DE. The DE credits had the grade she received, the AP were just credits- no grades. The school she went to accepted all these credits. This is allowing her to graduate in 4 years with a major and 2 minors. DD didn't have to pay anything to take the DE classes or the AP exams. Even if the school had not taken these credits she felt it would have helped her in her first year of college anyway with already having covered most of the material in those classes leaving more time to focus on other classes and adjust to college.

 

[luvmarypoppins]

My one son did the dual enrollment. He chose this because he knew that our local comm college classes were transferable to any state univ. within our state.

Yes some colleges dont accept the ap classes at all. My cousins ds had like 18 ap credits and his college refused to take any of them, go figure. He sucked it up because it was his dream school.

My son also found out that some colleges will also let you do clep testing too which he did for 2 classes I think. He did this for the comm. college and it transferred to the state univ.

Best of luck to your dd.

 

[okeydokey]

My kids are doing a combination. For us it really comes down to scheduling. The local CC sends instructors to the High School to teach some classes. If those fit in the schedule, they are our first choice. If not, and an AP class will fit, they do that.

The quality and rigor of the classes will be different in different areas, so what works best in one area will not be the best in another.

 

[Happy Snowman]

None of the schools our kids looked at and very few of the schools their friends looked at would take DE for credit or placement. I agree, in most schools the AP classes are much more difficult than the CC classes. Unless you know for sure your child will go to your state schools, DE classes are not worth it.

Has your district investigated online AP classes with another district? I know some smaller schools around here do that, Goto Meeting or whatever with the kids from the other schools. The remote kids have to drive to the host school for the tests though I think.

If your high school does not offer AP or only offers a few, it's not held against you for admissions usually, however, are they as well prepped for the SAT/ACT then???

 

[Colleen27]

None of the schools our kids looked at and very few of the schools their friends looked at would take DE for credit or placement. I agree, in most schools the AP classes are much more difficult than the CC classes. Unless you know for sure your child will go to your state schools, DE classes are not worth it.

Has your district investigated online AP classes with another district? I know some smaller schools around here do that, Goto Meeting or whatever with the kids from the other schools. The remote kids have to drive to the host school for the tests though I think.

If your high school does not offer AP or only offers a few, it's not held against you for admissions usually, however, are they as well prepped for the SAT/ACT then???

Online would be an option to a point - our state mandates participation in the state "virtual" high school program but the district limits how many courses students can take that way and DD is already planning on two years of online Japanese as her language rather than the Spanish the high school offers. But she could still take two years of AP courses (one course per semester) that way.

I'm not really worried about the test-prep angle. I managed very high scores on both tests despite attending a district where AP classes were reserved for seniors, and DD is a better student than I ever was. Besides, kids have to take the SAT as part of the state graduation requirements/evaluation so test-prep is part of the curriculum. My big concerns are the quality of the class experience and what will best help her get into the ridiculously competitive colleges she has her sights set on.

 

[Happy Snowman]

Online would be an option to a point - our state mandates participation in the state "virtual" high school program but the district limits how many courses students can take that way and DD is already planning on two years of online Japanese as her language rather than the Spanish the high school offers. But she could still take two years of AP courses (one course per semester) that way.

I'm not really worried about the test-prep angle. I managed very high scores on both tests despite attending a district where AP classes were reserved for seniors, and DD is a better student than I ever was. Besides, kids have to take the SAT as part of the state graduation requirements/evaluation so test-prep is part of the curriculum. My big concerns are the quality of the class experience and what will best help her get into the ridiculously competitive colleges she has her sights set on.

I'm assuming you mean Ivy's or similar. DE credits will NOT help and some of the Ivy's aren't accepting AP anythings any longer. They still want to see that they took the most rigorous courses available but that doesn't usually mean DE classes at a community college. Did MI switch to the SAT vs the ACT for their grad requirement?

If it were my child and she wanted to go Ivy or similar, I would take the Spanish at the high school and load up on as many AP classes as she can, but then again 4 or 5 AP's is still average for most high school kids.

 

[Skatermom23]

My kids just finished up their college years after taking a selection of both AP and dual enrollment in HS. The AP classes only count if a student scores high enough on it and their college of choice accepts it. Unfortunately for my kids, they tended to get 4's and their colleges would only accept a 5. All of their dual enrollment credits transferred in state. If we had to do it over again, I would push for more dual enrollment.

 

[Heidi K]

I am an AP English literature teacher and our school also has dual enrollment courses. I agree that the rigor of the AP courses tends to be much higher, and in my experience colleges do weigh the AP courses more heavily than a dual enrollment course when considering a student application, even if the college does not award credit for AP exams.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Not a one size fits all answer here.

For starters as PP stated, the AP classes are only as good as the teacher. Same with the dual enrollment.

Plus they cost money. My dd's AP's tests are 91.00 per test this year. She is taking 4 of them. She is a senior.

In addition you may be able to sign up for an AP test without taking the class. That would be your first thing to find out at your HS. ASK that question and ask how much they cost.

As far as accepting dual enrollment/AP scores for grade/credit that is totally up to the college you choose.

My dd choose the AP route. Then again she is a good test taker and wanted to take the AP classes. She has all 5's so far on the 3 tests she has taken.

She will get credit at the college she is going to. She did factor that into her research on her decision to do dual enrollment vs AP. Plus she did not know the college she would apply too and DE here works within the University of Missouri system at her HS.

That being said, her gifted friends were already taking college level classes starting their Freshman yr of HS (math and science). Dual enrollment is not until JR year here, so figure that one out.
They are in the "gifted going to be doctors or engineers program" that our school system has.

One of her gifted friends maxed out the math at the community college his JR yr. I think he is in AP stat with her this yr and it is like taking elementary math for him.

Bottom line, my dd is a senior and I am almost DONE with high school forever!!!!

ETA...If there is one thing that would sway me on the decision it would be what are the scores from teachers from previous students on the AP exams. That will tell you if they have a good AP teacher or not.

 

[Happy Snowman]

https://college.harvard.edu/admissi...transferring-harvard-college/transfer-credits

http://firstyear.nd.edu/incoming-students/credit-by-ap-ib-sat-ii-transfer/transfer-credit/

http://admission.stanford.edu/application/transfer/credit.html


Just a few across the country...

 

[Colleen27]

I'm assuming you mean Ivy's or similar. DE credits will NOT help and some of the Ivy's aren't accepting AP anythings any longer. They still want to see that they took the most rigorous courses available but that doesn't usually mean DE classes at a community college. Did MI switch to the SAT vs the ACT for their grad requirement?

If it were my child and she wanted to go Ivy or similar, I would take the Spanish at the high school and load up on as many AP classes as she can, but then again 4 or 5 AP's is still average for most high school kids.

One of her top two schools is an Ivy, the other a private Midwestern university. Both very competitive - acceptance rates in the 15% range - but we're supportive of her trying to get in because we're blue-collar enough that their need-based aid policies would make either one cheaper than the state university that is her likely safety school.

There's no talking her out of Japanese, though; she's been borderline obsessed with Japanese language and culture for years, has taught herself a bit of the language and writing system, and hopes to study abroad there when she gets to college. Meanwhile she's part of the generation that has been subjected to the relatively pointless once-a-week Spanish as an elective since K that has made it about the least appealing language ever. Not a single one of the 10 kids in her 8th grade class plans to take Spanish as their high school language.

MI just switched to the SAT in place of the ACT; the state is expected to save something like 15mil because of the switch. My son's class (2017 - current sophomores) will be the first to take it instead of the ACT.

 

[Happy Snowman]

One of her top two schools is an Ivy, the other a private Midwestern university. Both very competitive - acceptance rates in the 15% range - but we're supportive of her trying to get in because we're blue-collar enough that their need-based aid policies would make either one cheaper than the state university that is her likely safety school.

There's no talking her out of Japanese, though; she's been borderline obsessed with Japanese language and culture for years, has taught herself a bit of the language and writing system, and hopes to study abroad there when she gets to college. Meanwhile she's part of the generation that has been subjected to the relatively pointless once-a-week Spanish as an elective since K that has made it about the least appealing language ever. Not a single one of the 10 kids in her 8th grade class plans to take Spanish as their high school language.

MI just switched to the SAT in place of the ACT; the state is expected to save something like 15mil because of the switch. My son's class (2017 - current sophomores) will be the first to take it instead of the ACT.

If she has the grades and the test scores to get in, by all means apply to those schools--their need based aid usually makes them the best deal around!! The lack of AP's in her high school will not hurt her admissions though because you can only take what you can take. It will come down to how her GC marks her app, if she took the most rigorous courses available. It's a good time to become very good friends with the GC .

She should also apply broadly and look at places like Alabama, Tufts, any any other meets need school. Alabama gives full-tuition for GPA's above a certain point and SAT and ACT above a certain point. For a while they were giving out full-rides for those but have backed down to the full tuition. Depending on income level, look into the Questbridge program too.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

One of her top two schools is an Ivy, the other a private Midwestern university. Both very competitive - acceptance rates in the 15% range - but we're supportive of her trying to get in because we're blue-collar enough that their need-based aid policies would make either one cheaper than the state university that is her likely safety school.

There's no talking her out of Japanese, though; she's been borderline obsessed with Japanese language and culture for years, has taught herself a bit of the language and writing system, and hopes to study abroad there when she gets to college. Meanwhile she's part of the generation that has been subjected to the relatively pointless once-a-week Spanish as an elective since K that has made it about the least appealing language ever. Not a single one of the 10 kids in her 8th grade class plans to take Spanish as their high school language.

MI just switched to the SAT in place of the ACT; the state is expected to save something like 15mil because of the switch. My son's class (2017 - current sophomores) will be the first to take it instead of the ACT.

OK, here is my 2 cents....SIGN UP FOR THE ACT NOW, ASAP!!!! This is the last yr it does not count against her.

Let her take it cold. See what her score is. That will help you see where she sits and be realistic.

In general, Ivies strongly suggest you take SAT and require at least 2-3 SAT Subject tests in addition to a rigorous schedule and leadership in HS. Not an easy path for sure. Good Luck!

 

[Happy Snowman]

OK, here is my 2 cents....SIGN UP FOR THE ACT NOW, ASAP!!!! This is the last yr it does not count against her.

Let her take it cold. See what her score is. That will help you see where she sits and be realistic.

In general, Ivies strongly suggest you take SAT and require at least 2-3 SAT Subject tests in addition to a rigorous schedule and leadership in HS. Not an easy path for sure. Good Luck!

Ivy's will take SAT or ACT and only want the SAT II's if you only took the SAT. But I agree with taking both the ACT and SAT, some just do better on one or the other and colleges will look at the best of the two.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Ivy's will take SAT or ACT and only want the SAT II's if you only took the SAT. But I agree with taking both the ACT and SAT, some just do better on one or the other and colleges will look at the best of the two.

Yes you are right that it really is dependent on the student and the school for that admissions yr.

DD was looking at Northwestern and they "recommend" two SAT subject tests. Translation: Take 2 SAT subject tests and the SAT.

Northwestern recommends that all applicants take two SAT Subject Tests but requires scores from SAT Subject Tests only for applicants to the Honors Program in Medical Education (HPME), the Integrated Science Program (ISP), and applicants who have been home-schooled. See the chart below for specific exam requirements for these special programs.

 

[mom2rtk]

Here's the deal. You don't have a crystal ball. You have no way of knowing now what schools your daughter will be accepted to or what the bottom line cost will end up being. You really can't say what school(s) she will be most drawn to until you have 1) acceptance and 2) a financial aid package. One of my son's top choices was thrown out within about 5 minutes of seeing the financial aid package. It only becomes clear once you have all of that.

Bottom line is that she should push herself as much as possible. If that involves AP or Dual Credit, then she should do it. Even if the credits are not accepted, the advanced course work will help her in the long run. If you can afford it, enroll her in as much of it as you can. Even if she repeats some of the courses because her school doesn't accept it, what parent wouldn't want their child to be a leg up in those courses?

We spent around $1500 on Dual credit enrollment senior year and several hundred dollars on AP exams. It was all just a calculated gamble. We knew at that point that it was highly likely he'd have free tuition (for purposes of clarification, that would be full tuition and fees, exclusive of room and board, for those who care) available to at least one school, maybe more, and it was frustrating to pay for those courses when he could take them for free later. But without a crystal ball, we just didn't know how it would all turn out or what school he would choose.

Honestly, we'll probably do the same with our daughter if she continues to show an interest in those classes. But it will be a gamble again. But I'm in favor of doing whatever gives them the most options and choices heading into college.

 

[maleficent32]

My one son did the dual enrollment. He chose this because he knew that our local comm college classes were transferable to any state univ. within our state.

This is the path my dd has chosen because she plans on going to the CC and then transferring to a State U.

Right now my ds is taking honors classes. We will have to set up a meeting with his guidance counselor and sit down and figure out what the best option for him to do is. At this point he hasn't a clue of what he wants to do, or where he wants to go.

 

[georgina]

I agree that she needs to show she took a rigorous schedule for those top-level schools. Online DE with a CC would not be my first choice, but if that is all she has for advanced courses, she should seriously consider it. My youngest child did an independent study (on religions of the world) which was overseen by a teacher; when she was interviewing at some liberal arts schools they were very interested and asked a lot of questions about that.

My 3 kids' colleges all handled DE and AP courses differently, so it is hard to predict what your end result will be. Oldest 2 got at least a semester's worth of credit, youngest just got bumped up to higher level classes sooner, which was fine for her. DS's DE class was through Pitt and his college took the credit for that.

 

[cvjw]

My son did both - 6 AP classes/exams and 28 hours of dual enrollment. He did dual enrollment at a regular university, not a junior college and all of his credit hours transferred to UGA. The dual enrollment hours at his university transferred all around the country - they showcased one kid who went to Harvard and used his dual enrollment credits.

As far as how universities view AP vs. dual enrollment, it just depends on the university. My DS only applied to UGA and GA Tech. UGA does not look at DE credits like they do for AP or IB credits for admission. GA Tech, on the other hand, loved kids who did dual enrollment. They gave you credit for DE just like they did for AP or IB classes when they looked at kids for admission.

Bottom line, we loved the DE experience. My son made all A's in his dual enrollment classes, so he started UGA with a 4.0 grade point average. All of his AP credits also transferred, but they do not count towards your GPA.

He just finished up his first semester at UGA and is already a junior - thanks to AP and dual enrollment credits. He went straight into his major classes his first semester because he handled all of his general/core classes thru AP and dual enrollment.

Dual enrollment also helped him because he already knew how college worked before he got to his "real" university. He knew how to use the online systems, how the university professors have a "hands off" approach, and how to manage his time when he went to UGA.