Southern pride gone wrong!

[princessmom29]

I'm sure the women and children locked in that burning building in 1911 would beg to differ with you, dead is dead. Whether you starve, or freeze or get sicker and sicker with no way to pay a doctor, dead is dead. Wrong is wrong.

It would be closer to Murder in the First Degree and Murder in the Second Degree.

So now, the Union is the bastion of light because, hey, they didn't sell their workers kids, they just worked them or starved them to death too.

The North has been just as callous and heinous in their treatment of the immigrants as the plantation owners were to their slaves. There were even plantation owners that were better to their slaves than the Northern mill owners were to their people.

It's just silly to continue to think of the North as the Big Protector when they were doing pretty much the same thing for a much longer time than the plantation owners ever did.

Yeah...I can see how much more humane and civilized that is.

But you go ahead and pretend that the Stars and Stripes waves for nothing but the best.

ITA, but they will continue to hold onto thier savior fantasy becuase they cannot handle the idea that mabye it is just a fantasy.

 

[DisneyLoverUSA]

You should also mention that slaves were considered 1/3 of a HUMAN, and that was adult male slaves only.



Actually it's the same thing, their neighbor had something in her yard they found bothersome to look at, so they built a fence ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY so they didn't have to look at it.

...but I will phrase it this way....

suppose my neighbors filled their yard with garden gnomes and all the little buggers creeped me out every time I tried to relax in my pool. If I built an 8ft privacy fence around my yard so I didn't have to stare at them, and them at me, does that mean my neighbor should put them up on 10ft platforms so I am forced to stare at them over my fence?

You are talking about laying out at your pool so I am assuming you are talking about your back yard. SURE! If her gnomes bother you then build a fence. These ppl built a tall privacy fence on both sides of her yard IN THE FRONT of her house, not the back yard. There are always going to be things that offend ppl. What those neighbors did was provoke a woman to act out when they acted out toward her. All she did was fly a flag. It could have been the American flag, the state flag, or what she chose to fly, the Confederate flag.

I think my neighbor's car is ugly, but I am not going to build a fence so I don't have to look at it.

They were trying to bully her into doing what they wanted her to do, so in turn she fought back. She showed them she wasn't backing down and as she had the right to do, she raised the flag even higher. I probably would have done the same thing. Like a PP stated...had these ppl taken the time to befriend her or get to know her she may have willingly taken the flag down once she realized how it was affecting ppl but instead they protested in the street and built fences. She still has the flag up, only now their property values have all gone way down because they built big tall wooden privacy fences in the front yards of their houses. They aren't hurting her. Just making their own house look like crap and drawing more attention to her house.

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

I'm not getting why it's so outrageous for them to have built the fence on THEIR OWN PROPERTY? Isn't that how it's done? That's how we did it when we put the fence up.

I'd also like to address the fact that someone threw a rock at her. She may be flying the flag, but who reached into their backpocket for violence?

 

[Wall-E1]

They might look like that for a while, but eventually they will end u-p much like the first picture. Still no difference in outcome. They both end up dead because they refused to be enslaved. My point is that neither group had any real choices. Work or die is not a choice and that was the only option either group was faced with. Many ar trying to argue that starving to death is a viable option. I don't think so. That has little to do with the holocaust however. The ultimate goal there was not profit but genociede. They always intended to kill everyone they took.

I'm guessing that just about everyone else in the world, northerners or southerners, are able to differentiate between slavery and indentured servitude. I believe your views to simply be a bizarre anomaly.

As to the holocaust reference, your logic should apply to holocaust prisoners. They also had a choice. They could choose to work in the labor camps, or not. Of course, the consequence would be immediate death, but they had a choice. In fact they had the same choice as the southern slave (this, of course, would be princessmom29's "logic", not mine). How is the plight of the holocaust prisoner any different from the statement you made about a slave having a choice, in regards to refusing to work?

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

I'm guessing that just about everyone else in the world, northerners or southerners, are able to differentiate between slavery and indentured servitude. I believe your views to simply be a bizarre anomaly.

As to the holocaust reference, your logic should apply to holocaust prisoners. They also had a choice. They could choose to work in the labor camps, or not. Of course, the consequence would be immediate death, but they had a choice. In fact they had the same choice as the southern slave (this, of course, would be princessmom29's "logic", not mine). How is the plight of the holocaust prisoner any different from the statement you made about a slave having a choice, in regards to refusing to work?

So...6 MILLION Jews were gassed because they all sat down and chose not to work? So not they way I heard it.

 

[moburg]

You should also mention that slaves were considered 1/3 of a HUMAN, and that was adult male slaves only.

Actually, it was 3/5, not 1/3, but don't let facts get in the way.

Do you know why they were counted as 3/5? One side (Northern States or Southern States) wanted to count slaves. One side did not. The compromise was 3/5. Do you know why?

 

[Wall-E1]

So...6 MILLION Jews were gassed because they all sat down and chose not to work? So not they way I heard it.

You're not understanding the statement and comparison, and I clearly stated that it was "in regards to refusing to work". Princessmom doesn't think there is a difference between a slave refusing to work and an indentured servant refusing to work. I even tried to illustrate the difference with pictures. Princessmom is unable to differentiate between being broke/hungry and hanging dead from a tree. I then compared the outcome of a slave that refused to work with a holocaust prisoner that refused to work to show her the similarities between those two groups if they refused to work, and the fact that they really did not have a choice. I was trying to show that there is a difference between a slave/holocaust prisoner refusing to work and an indentured servant refusing to work. However, all my explaining has not helped her to comprehend the difference.

 

[badblackpug]

Just to point out, many of the slaves "torn from the arms of their family and tribes" were torn asunder by other black tribes. The tribe would then sell the captives of their raids to the white traders. People keep forgetting to mention this part.

Also, how exactly is a penniless immigrant supposed to buy a ticket to get home with??? The money they make barely gives them food to eat, much less extra to buy a ticket home. With the potato famine, why would they go home? There was no food there to eat when they got there.

I'm sure the women and children locked in that burning building in 1911 would beg to differ with you, dead is dead. Whether you starve, or freeze or get sicker and sicker with no way to pay a doctor, dead is dead. Wrong is wrong.

It would be closer to Murder in the First Degree and Murder in the Second Degree.

So now, the Union is the bastion of light because, hey, they didn't sell their workers kids, they just worked them or starved them to death too.

The North has been just as callous and heinous in their treatment of the immigrants as the plantation owners were to their slaves. There were even plantation owners that were better to their slaves than the Northern mill owners were to their people.

It's just silly to continue to think of the North as the Big Protector when they were doing pretty much the same thing for a much longer time than the plantation owners ever did.

Yeah...I can see how much more humane and civilized that is.

But you go ahead and pretend that the Stars and Stripes waves for nothing but the best.

I think what Geoff is referencing is that slave owners sold their own children. In that they fathered children with slave women and then turned around and sold them as slaves ... and most likely at a higher price because they were lighter skinned and, therefor, more suitable for "house" work.

 

[princessmom29]

I'm guessing that just about everyone else in the world, northerners or southerners, are able to differentiate between slavery and indentured servitude. I believe your views to simply be a bizarre anomaly.

As to the holocaust reference, your logic should apply to holocaust prisoners. They also had a choice. They could choose to work in the labor camps, or not. Of course, the consequence would be immediate death, but they had a choice. In fact they had the same choice as the southern slave (this, of course, would be princessmom29's "logic", not mine). How is the plight of the holocaust prisoner any different from the statement you made about a slave having a choice, in regards to refusing to work?

you just made my point for me holocaust prisioners, slaves, factory immigrants that were all in the same boat. No choice but slavery or death. THIS is what I have been trying to point out. I am glad someone grasps the absurdity of the idea that ANY of them had a real choice!

 

[Geoff_M]

I'm sure the women and children locked in that burning building in 1911 would beg to differ with you, dead is dead. Whether you starve, or freeze or get sicker and sicker with no way to pay a doctor, dead is dead. Wrong is wrong.

Setting aside the fact that you're misstating the facts of the tragedy (the workers were not incarcerated in the factory... it was the secondary exit that was locked and the elevators were operational but weren't able to handle the volume of people), you're still trying to make a laughable moral equivalence. You're also overlooking the fact that in reaction to the actions of the factory's owners laws were changed to prevent such disasters from happening again. It wasn't accepted as "business as usual" after the gross negligence happened. In fact one of the owners was arrested at a later date when he was found to have locked some of the exits again.

So now, the Union is the bastion of light because, hey, they didn't sell their workers kids, they just worked them or starved them to death too.

I have stated quite the opposite, so I'm at a loss at trying to understand why you keep trying to say that this claim is being made by me.

The North has been just as callous and heinous in their treatment of the immigrants as the plantation owners were to their slaves. There were even plantation owners that were better to their slaves than the Northern mill owners were to their people.

Wow... just wow! I wanted to highlight those breathtaking statements for all to see. And to think that I was told that I wouldn't see anything close to the "happy slave" argument!

 

[Geoff_M]

Yes punkin, certainly, the progressive, enlightened, sensitive north was just an absolute nirvana for arriving immigrants in the late 19th century.

Yep, and by golly that was all the doing of their masters! It's amazing that somehow my G-g-great Grandpa Huston, an Irish orphan and indentured servant, somehow managed to evade being hunted down by those corporate bounty hunters, being harmed by cruel masters, and managed to move to Indiana and become a successful farmer. No doubt he spent the rest of his life in fear that he would be rounded up some day and sent back to his old job back East under the Fugitive White Slave Act.

 

[princessmom29]

You're not understanding the statement and comparison, and I clearly stated that it was "in regards to refusing to work". Princessmom doesn't think there is a difference between a slave refusing to work and an indentured servant refusing to work. I even tried to illustrate the difference with pictures. Princessmom is unable to differentiate between being broke/hungry and hanging dead from a tree. I then compared the outcome of a slave that refused to work with a holocaust prisoner that refused to work to show her the similarities between those two groups if they refused to work, and the fact that they really did not have a choice. I was trying to show that there is a difference between a slave/holocaust prisoner refusing to work and an indentured servant refusing to work. However, all my explaining has not helped her to comprehend the difference.

For the record: I AM NOT STUPID. Sorry that you seem to think so. As a not stupid person, I refuse to allow you to put words in my mouth or think and reason for me. It is really sad that you seem completely unable to comprehend th point I am tryingto make. NONE OF THEM HAD ANY REAL CHOICE.FOR ALL OF THESE GROUPS THE CHOICE IS SLAVERY OR DEATH. THAT IS NOT A REAL CHIOCE!!!!!

 

[princessmom29]

Yep, and by golly that was all the doing of their masters! It's amazing that somehow my G-g-great Grandpa Huston, an Irish orphan and indentured servant, somehow managed to evade being hunted down by those corporate bounty hunters, being harmed by cruel masters, and managed to move to Indiana and become a successful farmer. No doubt he spent the rest of his life in fear that he would be rounded up some day and sent back to his old job back East under the Fugitive White Slave Act.

Many, many slaves didthe same thing. This argument doesn't hold water.

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

I think what Geoff is referencing is that slave owners sold their own children. In that they fathered children with slave women and then turned around and sold them as slaves ... and most likely at a higher price because they were lighter skinned and, therefor, more suitable for "house" work.

Ah. Thank you, did not get that.

 

[princessmom29]

I have stated quite the opposite, so I'm at a loss at trying to understand why you keep trying to say that this claim is being made by me.

!

Mabye, just mabye becuase the truth refuses to go away???

 

[Geoff_M]

NONE OF THEM HAD ANY REAL CHOICE.FOR ALL OF THESE GROUPS THE CHOICE IS SLAVERY OR DEATH. THAT IS NOT A REAL CHIOCE!!!!!

Sorry, but my family tree is loaded with counter examples to that false dichotomy.

 

[Geoff_M]

Many, many slaves didthe same thing. This argument doesn't hold water.

I'm confused? You said "FOR ALL OF THESE GROUPS THE CHOICE IS SLAVERY OR DEATH." So, how did many of the slaves pull that off? I don't see that listed as one of your choices?

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

Setting aside the fact that you're misstating the facts of the tragedy (the workers were not incarcerated in the factory... it was the secondary exit that was locked and the elevators were operational but weren't able to handle the volume of people), you're still trying to make a laughable moral equivalence. You're also overlooking the fact that in reaction to the actions of the factory's owners laws were changed to prevent such disasters from happening again. It wasn't accepted as "business as usual" after the gross negligence happened. In fact one of the owners was arrested at a later date when he was found to have locked some of the exits again.

I have stated quite the opposite, so I'm at a loss at trying to understand why you keep trying to say that this claim is being made by me.

Wow... just wow! I wanted to highlight those breathtaking statements for all to see. And to think that I was told that I wouldn't see anything close to the "happy slave" argument!

**I don't think it's a laughable moral equivalence. The owners didn't give a hoot whether those people lived or died. Shown by the fact one of the bosses actually did it again. It was to keep a tight eye on the workers so they wouldn't take an "underserved" break.

**The truth shall set you free.


**Highlight away. I say nothing about "happy slaves". Talk about being at a loss.

I state again trying to be clearer, and please feel free to highlight this:

Some plantation owners treated their slaves better than the Northern factory owners treated their workers. I don't see the word "happy" there. I see the words "treated better than". I say it because it's true. If that shocks you so to the core, you aren't as well read as you presume yourself to be.

 

[princessmom29]

I'm confused? You said "FOR ALL OF THESE GROUPS THE CHOICE IS SLAVERY OR DEATH." So, how did many of the slaves pull that off? I don't see that listed as one of your choices?

One is a general statement the other a specific example. Surely you can grasp that not every slave that ever escaped was captured???

 

[Wall-E1]

A slave could also choose to sit down and refuse to work anymore. He was also choosing certian death for himself and likely his family, but he had that choice. No one could really force him to stand up and work. He could make the choice to refuse. I really don't see that much of a difference. The outcome is the same.

For the record: I AM NOT STUPID. Sorry that you seem to think so. As a not stupid person, I refuse to allow you to put words in my mouth or think and reason for me. It is really sad that you seem completely unable to comprehend th point I am tryingto make. NONE OF THEM HAD ANY REAL CHOICE.FOR ALL OF THESE GROUPS THE CHOICE IS SLAVERY OR DEATH. THAT IS NOT A REAL CHIOCE!!!!!

You are completely contradicting your own statements.