Southern pride gone wrong!

[DisneyBamaFan]

... Had you guys won, we would call Jefferson Davis the "father" of your country. Since we won, he's a traitor.

First, I wasn't alive back then. "My guys" are "your guys". We are one.

Second, very few people consider those who fought for the South to be traitors. Certainly no historians. It is a bigoted view, but you are welcome to it.

 

[punkin]

First, I wasn't alive back then. "My guys" are "your guys". We are one.

Second, very few people consider those who fought for the South to be traitors. Certainly no historians. It is a bigoted view, but you are welcome to it.

Ahh, well, my people were in Europe then. No one in my family fought for either side.

I will hold on to my "bigoted" and "offensive" views just as long as some people will continue waive their traitorous, bigoted, and offensive flag.

 

[Geoff_M]

I have disagreed with the reasoning behind a few wars but a soldier's duty is to fight for his country/commanders. To many southerners, the South was in a sense their country.

That sentiment is in full display in Lee's resignation letter to Lt. Gen. Winfield Scott:

Arlington, Washington City, P.O
20 Apr 1861

Lt. Genl Winfield Scott
Commd U.S. Army

Genl,
Since my interview with you on the 18th Inst: I have felt that I ought not longer to retain any Commission in the Army. I therefore tender my resignation which I request you will recommend for acceptance. It would have been presented at once but for the struggle it has Cost me to separate myself from a Service to which I have divoted all the best years of my life, & all the ability I possessed. During the whole of that time, more than a quarter of a century, I have experienced nothing but kindness from my superiors & the most Cordial friendships from any Comrades. To no one Genl have I been as much indebted as to yourself for kindness & Consideration & it has always been my ardent desire to merit your approbation. I shall carry with me, to the grave the most grateful recollections
of your kind Consideration, & your name & fame will always be dear to me. Save in the defense of my native state shall I ever again draw my sword. Be pleased to accept any more [illegible] wishes for “the Continuance of your happiness & prosperity & believe me

Most truly yours
R E Lee

 

[badblackpug]

So when something is offensive we should just write off ever educating anyone about it and purge it from our parlance??? At one point seeing women's ankles was offensive, so we should have never been allowed to show them?? Whay about openly gay relationships?? There are lots of people still offended by that as well.
No I owuldn't fly a swastika becuase it has no meaning, good or bad, for me personally. I wouldn't be offended if someone else did however.

You have just made my point. Times change, customs change, meanings change. What was socially acceptable 50 years ago may not be so today, and vice versa. These changes may be negative or positive depending on the point of view of the individual, but these changes have occurred, and they are usually permanent.

"gay" no longer means happy
"colored" or the "N" word are no longer acceptable terms
bullying is no longer an accepted part of childhood
children can longer buy cigarettes, or work in mines

What is socially acceptable changes from generation to generation. The confederate flag is no longer felt to be socially acceptable in most situations. Most people know this. Whether it is meant to be, or not, it is offensive to a lot of people, much the same way the swastika is (and I truly cannot believe that when you see a swastika you do not think "nazi")

Again, I can only think of a few reasons, and they are not good ones, that someone would actively choose to alienate and offend the community in which they live.

 

[princessmom29]

You have just made my point. Times change, customs change, meanings change. What was socially acceptable 50 years ago may not be so today, and vice versa. These changes may be negative or positive depending on the point of view of the individual, but these changes have occurred, and they are usually permanent.

"gay" no longer means happy
"colored" or the "N" word are no longer acceptable terms
bullying is no longer an accepted part of childhood
children can longer buy cigarettes, or work in mines

What is socially acceptable changes from generation to generation. The confederate flag is no longer felt to be socially acceptable in most situations. Most people know this. Whether it is meant to be, or not, it is offensive to a lot of people, much the same way the swastika is (and I truly cannot believe that when you see a swastika you do not think "nazi")

Again, I can only think of a few reasons, and they are not good ones, that someone would actively choose to alienate and offend the community in which they live.

but what if no one had pushed for any of those good changes? Children would still be working in mines if no one decided it was unacceptable. It would still be ok to use the "n" word if no one stood up and said it was not. I for one find the idea that the battle flag of the Confederacy stands for hate and racism to be unacceptable and will continue to work to change that perception. If we don't stand up for what we believe to be right and work to change the things we feel are wrong no one will.

 

[Scurvy]

I may well be, but that is a religious discussion and, therefor, banned by the Dis.....

You can stick your head in the sand all you want and say that the flag is supposed to symbolize this or that. You can keep your head in the sand and say that it symbolizes this or that to me, so it must symbolize this or that to everyone. The truth of the matter is that to a lot of people, and black people in particular, that flag has many, many ugly connotations. This is a flag that was used, and is still used in many places, to terrorize non white/non christian people. There is no denying that fact.

I used to live in a neighborhood of Philadelphia commonly known as "the gayborhood." It is an area that has a large, vocal, and openly gay community. If I had a problem with them I could stick my head in the sand and say that my neighbors Michael and Tim fly that rainbow flag because they are artistic, or that they refer to themselves as partners because they own a business, or that they call themselves gay because they are happy. Ignoring the fact that all these things have more than one common usage does not mean that it does not exist. I could argue until I'm blue in the face that gay originally meant happy, but that doesn't change the fact that they are homosexual.

It doesn't matter why the civil war was fought. Lee and Lincoln's policies don't matter. States rights don't matter. None of that is germane to this discussion. What does matter is that this woman chose to prominently display a symbol that she, unless she has lived under a rock for the past 50 years, knew would be offensive to her neighbors. When they made efforts to block it from view she made it a point to display it even more prominently. This makes her, at the very least, a bad neighbor and not a very nice person. In my opinion, and probably many others, her actions are much deeper than this.

Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't make it right.

Regarding the bolded - has anyone actually said that? I don't think I saw anyone say that because the flag does not represent racism to some people that it must never symbolize racism to anyone. I think most of the people on this thread have acknowledged that some people do find the flag to be a racist symbol. They have also said that it's a mistaken assumption to think that everyone views the flag the same way. It seems to me that the people who don't find the flag offensive are trying to get other posters to understand the flag can mean different things to different people, while those who are offended by the flag seem to be trying to convince everyone that the flag should only represent racism to everyone. I don't understand why everyone can't acknowledge that there can be more than one correct interpretation of this symbol.

 

[FireDancer]

I have disagreed with the reasoning behind a few wars but a soldier's duty is to fight for his country/commanders. To many southerners, the South was in a sense their country.

And therein lies another reason I don't respect the rebels or anyone that fought for them. The soldier's duty was to the country, the United States of America, not to rebel states or agents who wanted to separate from that country. That is why they are traitors in some people's opinion.

That second sentence doesn't really matter, we are all one country. Even during the Civil War we were one country, just some members of that one country were trying to break away while other members of that same country were trying to keep the union together. That is why it was the Civil War. By definition that means it was a war between people in the same country.

If some member of the military decided they wanted to break one of the states off of the USA today I'm sure the brave soldiers of our military would stay loyal to our country...at least the good ones.

 

[badblackpug]

Regarding the bolded - has anyone actually said that? I don't think I saw anyone say that because the flag does not represent racism to some people or that it must never symbolize racism to anyone. I think most of the people on this thread have acknowledged that some people do find the flag to be a racist symbol. They have also said that it's a mistaken assumption to think that everyone views the flag the same way. It seems to me that the people who don't find the flag offensive are trying to get other posters to understand the flag can mean different things to different people, while those who are offended by the flag seem to be trying to convince everyone that the flag should only represent racism to everyone. I don't understand why everyone can't acknowledge that there can be more than one correct interpretation of this symbol.

I acknowledge that it means different things to different people. My point is, is that is IS offensive to many, and flying this flag, regardless of what it means to you, will be offensive to many. If it means so much to someone that they need to display it, then they should do it within the confines of their home rather than force a community to live under a symbol that represents hatred to them.

I will, again, use the swastika as an example. I view (I do not, but will for argument's purposes) the swastika as an ancient symbol of life and good luck. As I have not been living under a rock, I understand that most of the members of my predominantly Jewish neighborhood, have a very negative and hurtful view of this symbol. Out of respect for their feelings and experiences I would choose not to publicly fly this symbol.

 

[princessmom29]

And therein lies another reason I don't respect the rebels or anyone that fought for them. The soldier's duty was to the country, the United States of America, not to rebels states or agents who wanted to separate from that country. That is why they are traitors in some people's opinion.

If some member of the military decided they wanted to break one of the states off of the USA today I'm sure the brave soldiers of our military would stay loyal to our country...at least the good ones.

that logic only holds if it has been established that peceful succession is clearly illegal. It has now, but definitely hadn't then. It was still a question of constitutional interpretation.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

And therein lies another reason I don't respect the rebels or anyone that fought for them. The soldier's duty was to the country, the United States of America, not to rebels states or agents who wanted to separate from that country. That is why they are traitors in some people's opinion.

Again, you show your willingness to judge history by today's standards. Before the Civil War, people were a part of their local communities first, their state second, and the country third. The states were, in most ways, independant. Most laws on the books were state laws - there were very few federal laws. The federal government was only there to protect the people from interests outside the country.

Understand that officers on both sides of this war respected the decision of the others to fight for their respective states. It was acceptable then because that is the way our government was organized, and that is the way that our society was structured. To call them traitors today based on current standards is to ignore the facts that refute the notion. They were not considered traitors then, even by those who they fought against, so how could they be so today?

Remember that Lincoln had to suspend habeas corpus for a reason.

 

[princessmom29]

I acknowledge that it means different things to different people. My point is, is that is IS offensive to many, and flying this flag, regardless of what it means to you, will be offensive to many. If it means so much to someone that they need to display it, then they should do it within the confines of their home rather than force a community to live under a symbol that represents hatred to them.

I will, again, use the swastika as an example. I view (I do not, but will for argument's purposes) the swastika as an ancient symbol of life and good luck. As I have not been living under a rock, I understand that most of the members of my predominantly Jewish neighborhood, have a very negative and hurtful view of this symbol. Out of respect for their feelings and experiences I would choose not to publicly fly this symbol.

That is how you would deal with it. I would choose to educate my community about the true meaning of the symbol, why it is important to me to be able to display it publically, and why I choose to desplay it with pride. Flags are meant to be flown publicly. Hiding one inside my house is not taknig pride in it, it is showing that I am ashamed to own it.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

that logic only holds if it has been established that peceful succession is clearly illegal. It has now, but definitely hadn't then. It was still a question of constitutional interpretation.

It goes further than that. The Union was not formed by our victory over England. It was formed in meeting rooms all over the colonies after that war. In those meeting rooms, every single state said that they would not agree to join the union if they could not, at a later date, back out of the union - for any reason they so chose. None of the states would have agreed to the union without that understanding. There are hundreds of records that prove this out.

It isn't just about Constitutional interpretation. These decisions had been made and agreed upon. Little did those who signed on understand how willing one man would be to throw away the union of states for a central power less than 100 years later.

 

[badblackpug]

That is how you would deal with it. I would choose to educate my community about the true meaning of the symbol, why it is important to me to be able to display it publically, and why I choose to desplay it with pride. Flags are meant to be flown publicly. Hiding one inside my house is not taknig pride in it, it is showing that I am ashamed to own it.

Well I am glad, and you should be glad that you live where you do. You would be a very unpopular member of the community here.

 

[princessmom29]

Well I am glad, and you should be glad that you live where you do. You would be a very unpopular member of the community here.

I am glad I don't live there as well. It sounds like a place where people who think outside the box and do conform to the majority's way of thinking are simply not welcome. I am so glad my Southern town, suppoesdly a bastion of racism and intorlerance, is not like that. our community tends to be very accepting or differences and has a "to each his own" philosophy that i really enjoy. Nobody is up in arms becuase the neighbors or gay, or athiests, or proud of thier heritage. We just live and let live. I don't think I could handle living somewhere that was unacceptable.

 

[Christopher Robin]

From the original story...
"After someone threw a rock at her porch, ..."

Interesting that no one has discussed this aspect.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Well I am glad, and you should be glad that you live where you do. You would be a very unpopular member of the community here.

You have no idea - I am from the deep south and have been very well accepted everywhere that I have lived. This includes California, New York and New Jersey - three very liberal states. Most of my closest friends are from these states.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

From the original story...
"After someone threw a rock at her porch, ..."

Interesting that no one has discussed this aspect.

Clearly she deserved to have that rock thrown at her house.

 

[Christopher Robin]

Clearly she deserved to have that rock thrown at her house.

Also interesting that some posted they were "Hoping she didn't get stung ".

 

[princessmom29]

Clearly she deserved to have that rock thrown at her house.

and apparently so do we .

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

And therein lies another reason I don't respect the rebels or anyone that fought for them. The soldier's duty was to the country, the United States of America, not to rebel states or agents who wanted to separate from that country. That is why they are traitors in some people's opinion.

That second sentence doesn't really matter, we are all one country. Even during the Civil War we were one country, just some members of that one country were trying to break away while other members of that same country were trying to keep the union together. That is why it was the Civil War. By definition that means it was a war between people in the same country.

If some member of the military decided they wanted to break one of the states off of the USA today I'm sure the brave soldiers of our military would stay loyal to our country...at least the good ones.

When the southern states joined the Union it was with the stipulation that THEY COULD SECEDE if they so chose. The Union decided to change that horse in mid stream. So in the Southerners eyes, they were not traitors. In the original "agreement" if you will, they wouldn't be seen as traitors either. It was the North that changed that. The South may not have joined the Union if they had not had that provision.