Some things I have been reading

[BuddyThomas]

This is where I think you are wrong. Have you been to Sea World? The trainers love their jobs, and the animals seem to love what they are doing. I see no problem with SeaWorld, seeing that they stand for conservation of animals, and show the true beauty of these creatures. They do not abuse them.

Been to Sea World. Never again! Trainers may love their jobs but that is not the point. The cetaceans are in tanks that are too small, the water is chlorinated and unnatural, the fish they are fed are dead, frozen and laced with nutrients they would normally receive in the wild. The sides of the tanks interfere with their echolocation, they are not with their natural pod, the noise from the human spectators disturbs them, some are in isolation, they are forced to perform for food (and please do not compare this to a domesticated dog!), they are bored, many become neurotic over time, they are in no way stimulated as they would be in the wild, they are artificially inseminated as part of a breeding program and born into captivity never to know freedom. Do you want me to go on? It's wrong. Sea World does have a conservation program. And that's a good thing. But they are truly more interested in huge profits. Rescue and rehab is a tax write off. Not really profitable.
However the captivity of cetaceans needs to end.
Research the 18 beluga whales Sea World and the Georgia Aquarium attempted to purchase from Russia a few weeks ago. NOAA denied the permit and they are now researching to find the origins of the capture. All data is pointing to an underground deal with these two major companies. Keep your eye on the news. This is big business with huge profits![/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting this. I realize this is all an inconvenient truth for those who want to go watch a whale show, but I'm glad the info is getting put there.

 

[angelmom27]

Well I hope this thread does get moved I dislike all the negativity especially others are trying to plan a trip to have fun with their family.

You can say whatever you want but I'm just high on the SW koolaid and nothing will change my mind. Like PP said I see such a bad talk about SW on these threads but don't see anyone bashing AK or Epcot. The local zoos or other aquariums.

 

[BuddyThomas]

Well I hope this thread does get moved I dislike all the negativity especially others are trying to plan a trip to have fun with their family.

You can say whatever you want but I'm just high on the SW koolaid and nothing will change my mind. Like PP said I see such a bad talk about SW on these threads but don't see anyone bashing AK or Epcot. The local zoos or other aquariums.

It is not negativity. It is a useful discussion and not everybody is required to have the same opinion. That's the great thing about this country. Differing views are a good thing. Trying to silence differing views-----not so good. We have an upcoming vacation to Orlando as well and we have been wanting to go to Sea World for years, mainly for the coasters.......but honestly, after seeing Blackfish, there is no way I could hand them $80.00 or more and still look at myself in the mirror. That's just my opinion and it is not one that I expect many of you to share.

 

[lexandme]

Also, as a previous poster pointed out, would you skip Animal Kingdom and Epcot or Busch Gardens because they have animals? Or any zoo?

I skip AK, I went to EPCOT a few weeks ago to discuss the 4 dolphins kept there with two trainers. I avoid zoos. That said, there's a huge difference between large cetaceans kept in small tanks and small land animals in size appropriate settings. And you don't seek the giraffes doing stupid tricks for their food in a zoo, do you?

 

[Swim Spence]

No, but I am pretty sure that they aren't threatened to be starved if they don't do the show

 

[dolphinrescuegirl]

They do rehabilitate animals, but they also take orcas from the wild, who are NOT in danger, and put them in little tiny tanks....Orcas in captivity live 9 years or so, in the wild, they live 90, I can do the math. Its a shame that humans try to bottle up the ocean for these animals. Dolphins use echo location to find each other and food etc, can you imagine what it does to them when it just bounces off tank walls?? Orcas are made to do things for shows, they dont naturally do in the wild, its disgusting. Have I been to sea world? yes a couple of times, it breaks my heart....... I probably wouldnt be able to go again now that I am more informed. Ya know all it takes is for enough people to stop going, and they would have to close...just sayin.....

You are badly misinformed. In the wild makes live to about 30 while females live to about 50. In rare cases they live to 60. Just show me an orca that has lived to 90! Captive orcas also live much longer than 9 years. While they USED to take wild orcas, they no longer do so. There are only 5 whales between the 3 parks that were born wild. All the others were born in captivity and would die in the wild. If you want to be an activist, maybe you should do your research! Also the documentaries are full of false propaganda.

 

[BuddyThomas]

Whatever propaganda may be in the movie, the video clips do not lie.

 

[lexandme]

You are badly misinformed. In the wild makes live to about 30 while females live to about 50. In rare cases they live to 60. Just show me an orca that has lived to 90! Captive orcas also live much longer than 9 years. While they USED to take wild orcas, they no longer do so. There are only 5 whales between the 3 parks that were born wild. All the others were born in captivity and would die in the wild. If you want to be an activist, maybe you should do your research! Also the documentaries are full of false propaganda.

For the captives, I am more concerned about quality of life over quantity.

Please take the time to really research wild captures and the importation of cetaceans purchased from other countries under the guise of "rescue". This is coming to a head and the denial of the Russian belugas is an indication that NOAA and the IWC is catching on to these practices.

If you want to be truly outraged, watch the film "The Cove". Also, the Taiji dolphin slaughter (that has been proven to be directly tied to the wild capture and tank captivity of dolphins) begins again on September 1. The Grind, happening in the Faroe Islands right now, is another slaughter that is absolutely disgusting. Pilot whales are driven onto the beach, hauled up by their blow holes by large hooks and stabbed. The sea turns red with blood. The meat is not edible because of the dangerously high levels of mercury. Hundreds are killed for no reason.
I will tell you this, activism does bring about great social change. I've been doing this since the early 70's. When I started there was a small group dedicated to saving wild whales from slaughter by (mostly) the Japanese and the Russians. Our outrage and protests paid off. The IWC set limits, pods were replenished and many whales were brought back from the brink of extinction. Comparing the activism, outrage and discussion that is occurring now to what it was like 40 years ago, I am encouraged. More people are getting involved and having intelligent discussions. I do believe we are getting closer and closer to ensuring these beautiful animals, these minds in the waters, are given more protection from man's inhumanity, selfishness, greed and cruelty.

 

[luvsJack]

I skip AK, I went to EPCOT a few weeks ago to discuss the 4 dolphins kept there with two trainers. I avoid zoos. That said, there's a huge difference between large cetaceans kept in small tanks and small land animals in size appropriate settings. And you don't seek the giraffes doing stupid tricks for their food in a zoo, do you?

But you don't mind giving your vacation dollars to the company that owns AK and Epcot, right? Do you really not think that the dollars spent at MK will help to support AK or the dolphin tanks at Epcot?

If you feel that strongly about captive animals, why do you support Disney at all?

The few fish that are given to those whales when they perform is not the only food they are given. Its not realistic to think so. The whales would not survive.

 

[BuddyThomas]

The Cove is a horrifying but truly revelatory movie that every person who is interested in or cares about dolphins really needs to see. It is almost impossible to watch at some points but I would urge all of you to see it. It was nominated for the Academy Award and may have even won (too tired to look it up).

This does not have to do specifically with Sea World........just with a horrifying situation that everyone needs to know about.

 

[Squidgyness]

It really, really irritates me when people keep saying seaworld takes killer whales from the wild. They do not (in fact a big song and dance was made over the fact that a different whale permit was refused the other week!), continuing to perpetuate this fallacy is clouding an issue that does not need to be clouded further.

It also really irritates me that people continue to effectively yell abuse and one way statements at seaworld on its own sites like their facebook (seaworld has its own public image propaganda on there yes, but that is not what this point is about). For some reason, it is perfectly reasonable for people to post messages of hate against the park on its own facebook page (on posts talking about releasing animals no less!) If someone on the other side of the argument (perhaps even seaworld themselves) were to make a polite and reasonable neutral or pro-seaworld post on, say, PETAs pages, I wonder what the reaction would be. Most likely an outpouring of hate and abuse.

I find some messages from supposedly animal friendly people on the more neutral articles out there to be decidedly hateful in some respects (not on here). I commend seaworld on letting people speak their minds then responding, even if I don't always like the response. Frankly, some of the more fanatical members of these activism groups need to do the same and let a reasonable debate take place. 'Seaworld is evil' and 'free shamu' does not invite a reasoned debate.

Honestly though, I'm not going to watch blackfish. It seems set up to play on the heart strings frankly and I don't believe sensible decisions can be made whilst emotions run high. Also whilst I doubt the footage has been faked, the implications of it can easily be misunderstood and anyone with "ex employee" in the title is NOT a good source of information, anymore than seaworlds chief of PR is.

One thing that I am not clear on is if tilikum (or any other whale) is as damaged mentally as the activists say, why do they advocate dumping him into the wild? Surely he would need years of rehabilitation and care at a specialist center to be prepped for release and help his 'psychosis' as some people allege he has. I presume we can count on all these supposed welfare organisations to provide this support?

I just don't get how you can go from "this whale is mentally damaged and/or psychotic and ill" to "therefore he needs to be put into a strange environment." And it IS a strange environment to the whales, make no mistake. Humans originally inhabited the "wild". Now, you take the average office worker and put him back in his "natural environment" and see how he copes.

The very irony is the more arguments are put forward that the whales are unnaturally stunted mentally and physically by captivity, the less it seems feasible to release them into a wild environment. I fail to see any reasonable alternatives put forward by PETA and organisations of that ilk at this moment in time. Until I see such a plan, I'm afraid I won't entertain ideas of trying to close seaworld or shut down most of its programs.

Sorry if that post ruffles feathers, but its what I believe and I'm sticking by it.

 

[lexandme]

But you don't mind giving your vacation dollars to the company that owns AK and Epcot, right? Do you really not think that the dollars spent at MK will help to support AK or the dolphin tanks at Epcot?

If you feel that strongly about captive animals, why do you support Disney at all?

The few fish that are given to those whales when they perform is not the only food they are given. Its not realistic to think so. The whales would not survive.

My not patronizing zoos is a personal preference. There are many zoos (AK included) and the Disney Conservation Fund that do amazing work. I understand the need to conserve threatened species in enclosed areas. Trust me, I have done my homework! I do believe keeping cetaceans on display and teaching them to do stupid tricks is not right.

You are right. Edible rewards are not the only food they are given. But they do not know that. They have been conditioned by a food reinforcer. Therefore they continue the tricks because they know they want to eat. They also know there is not a natural food supply that they can hunt (which is a normal behavior). It's cruel (my opinion).
Trust me, it's not just Sea World I have issues with. Marineland of Canada, Georgia Aquarium, Miami Seaquarium, all of the swim with dolphin programs, hotels in Vegas with captive dolphins, etc. I don't think Sea World needs to shut down and cease to exist. I do think they need to rethink their cetacean shows and captivity tanks. And stop the breeding program!

Also, The Dolphin Project, Earth Island Institute is currently rehabbing and releasing dolphins and whales back into the wild-with great success. Please read and research the facts before making assumptions.

 

[luvsJack]

My not patronizing zoos is a personal preference. There are many zoos (AK included) and the Disney Conservation Fund that do amazing work. I understand the need to conserve threatened species in enclosed areas. Trust me, I have done my homework! I do believe keeping cetaceans on display and teaching them to do stupid tricks is not right.

You are right. Edible rewards are not the only food they are given. But they do not know that. They have been conditioned by a food reinforcer. Therefore they continue the tricks because they know they want to eat. They also know there is not a natural food supply that they can hunt (which is a normal behavior). It's cruel (my opinion).

So, you also have an issue with dogs that are trained by using treats as a reinforcer?

I guess I don't understand how the work done by Disney and the work done by Sea World is not given the same credit.

Not all of the animals in AK are threatened.

I haven't made any assumptions. I am questioning what you are saying.

 

[lexandme]

It really, really irritates me when people keep saying seaworld takes killer whales from the wild. They do not (in fact a big song and dance was made over the fact that a different whale permit was refused the other week!), continuing to perpetuate this fallacy is clouding an issue that does not need to be clouded further.

It also really irritates me that people continue to effectively yell abuse and one way statements at seaworld on its own sites like their facebook (seaworld has its own public image propaganda on there yes, but that is not what this point is about). For some reason, it is perfectly reasonable for people to post messages of hate against the park on its own facebook page (on posts talking about releasing animals no less!) If someone on the other side of the argument (perhaps even seaworld themselves) were to make a polite and reasonable neutral or pro-seaworld post on, say, PETAs pages, I wonder what the reaction would be. Most likely an outpouring of hate and abuse.

I find some messages from supposedly animal friendly people on the more neutral articles out there to be decidedly hateful in some respects (not on here). I commend seaworld on letting people speak their minds then responding, even if I don't always like the response. Frankly, some of the more fanatical members of these activism groups need to do the same and let a reasonable debate take place. 'Seaworld is evil' and 'free shamu' does not invite a reasoned debate.

Honestly though, I'm not going to watch blackfish. It seems set up to play on the heart strings frankly and I don't believe sensible decisions can be made whilst emotions run high. Also whilst I doubt the footage has been faked, the implications of it can easily be misunderstood and anyone with "ex employee" in the title is NOT a good source of information, anymore than seaworlds chief of PR is.

One thing that I am not clear on is if tilikum (or any other whale) is as damaged mentally as the activists say, why do they advocate dumping him into the wild? Surely he would need years of rehabilitation and care at a specialist center to be prepped for release and help his 'psychosis' as some people allege he has. I presume we can count on all these supposed welfare organisations to provide this support?

I just don't get how you can go from "this whale is mentally damaged and/or psychotic and ill" to "therefore he needs to be put into a strange environment." And it IS a strange environment to the whales, make no mistake. Humans originally inhabited the "wild". Now, you take the average office worker and put him back in his "natural environment" and see how he copes.

The very irony is the more arguments are put forward that the whales are unnaturally stunted mentally and physically by captivity, the less it seems feasible to release them into a wild environment. I fail to see any reasonable alternatives put forward by PETA and organisations of that ilk at this moment in time. Until I see such a plan, I'm afraid I won't entertain ideas of trying to close seaworld or shut down most of its programs.

Sorry if that post ruffles feathers, but its what I believe and I'm sticking by it.

I wrote the denied permit was for beluga whales, not killer. I never inferred it was for killers.
Please research this issue. The IWC and NOAA are investigating this as we speak. There is obviously a reason why they feel the need!

 

[lexandme]

So, you also have an issue with dogs that are trained by using treats as a reinforcer?

I guess I don't understand how the work done by Disney and the work done by Sea World is not given the same credit.

Not all of the animals in AK are threatened.

I haven't made any assumptions. I am questioning what you are saying.

No problem at all with dogs (or even humans) being subjected to positive reinforcement with edibles. I use them daily for my Golden Retriever. My problem lies solely with large intelligent cetaceans being kept captive in small tanks for man's entertainment. It's that simple.

There are other animals that are being kept in some zoos that I question why. But cetaceans (especially dolphins) are my passion. I can't champion any more species!
The assumption comment was not directed at you but at Squidgyness. Sorry about that!

 

[CPT Tripss]

I think those of you posting in favor of Sea World owe it to yourselves to see the devastating movie, Blackfish, which is now in limited release. Minds have been known to change.

And read Death at Sea World by David Kirby. Might make heads explode.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Well I hope this thread does get moved I dislike all the negativity especially others are trying to plan a trip to have fun with their family.

You can say whatever you want but I'm just high on the SW koolaid and nothing will change my mind. Like PP said I see such a bad talk about SW on these threads but don't see anyone bashing AK or Epcot. The local zoos or other aquariums.

There is an enormous difference between zoos compaired to aquariums and circuses and SeaWorld.

Unrelated to this quote . . . At least one PP misstated the goal of Naomi Rose and others. They don't advocate release, they advocate sea pens for captive orca. That and an end to breeding captives, care for them and end their display by attrition.. If SeaWorld is so expert, why do they begin breeding, by artificial insemination, females much younger and at a shorter interval than wild orca breed naturally?

 

[sonnyjane]

I was very active on the other thread, didn't realize this was the same topic.

It really, really irritates me when people keep saying seaworld takes killer whales from the wild. They do not (in fact a big song and dance was made over the fact that a different whale permit was refused the other week!), continuing to perpetuate this fallacy is clouding an issue that does not need to be clouded further.

While not orcas, I don't understand how you could be okay with them almost getting belugas from the wild!!? Essentially the only thing stopping them from taking them from the wild is these legal decisions. It's not that they don't want to. They keep trying!


Honestly though, I'm not going to watch blackfish. It seems set up to play on the heart strings frankly and I don't believe sensible decisions can be made whilst emotions run high. Also whilst I doubt the footage has been faked, the implications of it can easily be misunderstood and anyone with "ex employee" in the title is NOT a good source of information, anymore than seaworlds chief of PR is.

That's a shame. I work with animals in captivity. I saw the film because I felt I had to in order to discuss the issue intelligently. I don't see how you can be opposed to something you refuse to see. If after seeing it you still think the film is full of lies and sensationalism, then I'll acknowledge your opinion, but until then there's no point in discussing it.

One thing that I am not clear on is if tilikum (or any other whale) is as damaged mentally as the activists say, why do they advocate dumping him into the wild? Surely he would need years of rehabilitation and care at a specialist center to be prepped for release and help his 'psychosis' as some people allege he has.
That's precisely right. Nobody is suggesting they just be released tomorrow. You'd know that if you researched the views of the opposition you're speaking out against. There is a long rehab and reintroduction process.


The very irony is the more arguments are put forward that the whales are unnaturally stunted mentally and physically by captivity, the less it seems feasible to release them into a wild environment. I fail to see any reasonable alternatives put forward by PETA and organisations of that ilk at this moment in time. Until I see such a plan, I'm afraid I won't entertain ideas of trying to close seaworld or shut down most of its programs.

Again, if you researched the issues, you'd know that there are alternatives presented (even in the film Blackfish which you refuse to see), including stopping the breeding program and retiring the animals to sea pens.

Sorry if that post ruffles feathers, but its what I believe and I'm sticking by it.

 

[CPT Tripss]

A judge didn't believe SeaWorld's representations in their appeal of OSHA's findings of fault in Dawn's death . . . make's it difficult to buy much of their spin on the value of the entertainment they provide.

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/95351368/embed?access_key=key-21c9nox5a4pcij40wx7g

 

[luvsJack]

No problem at all with dogs (or even humans) being subjected to positive reinforcement with edibles. I use them daily for my Golden Retriever. My problem lies solely with large intelligent cetaceans being kept captive in small tanks for man's entertainment. It's that simple.

There are other animals that are being kept in some zoos that I question why. But cetaceans (especially dolphins) are my passion. I can't champion any more species!
The assumption comment was not directed at you but at Squidgyness. Sorry about that!

No problem on the assumption comment.

Ok, I see the issue is with the tanks. I get that.

I do think that Sea World is a beautiful park and the shows are spectacular. And I do think the company serves a purpose at this point. And I prefer their tanks to the one at Disney. But, I will do more reading on the subject.